Say hello to the Oxidizer

[Kabrute]

11 hours ago, Oozinator said:

May i ask you, why you never edit posts and add stuff?
Hourly updates from the oxidizer feels a bit massive, like spiderman!
^^

Are you saying my post has loose threads left everywhere?  It took me two references to connect that dot, do I wander off with a lot of random strings or spin webs of words in my posts?  I'm curious if i'm near the mark or if you just really like the speedoledeeder man

[Oozinator]

13 minutes ago, Kabrute said:

Are you saying ..

No
^^

[Kabrute]

Just checking I'm going to be away for a while working on the next iteration, should I post it here or give it its own thread?

[The Flying Fox]

17 hours ago, Kabrute said:

...

Using that setup I should be able to double the number of coolers hooked to the tube..... I'm gonna need a bigger tube, should I go longer/ wider/ or some combination of the two?

..Neither?  My own experience with the units I've come up with in the past suggests that you're using too many thermal regulators and not enough radiating pipe for each.  Of course, this was with units where the main freezing room operated at or below 2000 grams per cell.  I understand that you're just letting P-O2 build up and then ramming it into the freezer room, so there is a difference.

 

Still, I found that 75 to 100 granite pipe radiators would (Once the machine was fully primed) return the 1000 gram hydrogen packets back to the thermal regulator near around the 14 degree difference that the thermal regulator created.  So, there was little worry of over-cooling the hydrogen in the pipes.  I knew then, if the pressure in the freezing room was dropping too much, to shut off the thermal regulator as the hydrogen in the pipes was probably returning too cold.  There's then a gas bridge after the input to the thermal regulator to connect back to the radiator which acts as a bypass for when the regulator is off.  This keeps the hydrogen flowing through the radiator even when the regulator is off.  This smooths out the temperature of the hydrogen packets.  Doing it this way means you wouldn't/shouldn't have to fiddle with the valve setting on each of the hydrogen loops, they would be more self regulating, although with more hydrogen in the loop, that means a longer priming time and the thermal regulators ran hotter, obviously.

 

As for the size/shape of the freezing room itself, yeah, that room is quite narrow as it is.  I'm sure it's bottle-necking your P-O2 input into that room because of how slow gases move in this game.  I would definitely widen it, which would give you more space for a bigger radiator.  I would not increase the amount of thermal regulators, in fact, I'd try to reduce them using the idea that I posted above.

 

Ultimately, the amount of P-O2 you can process isn't limited so much by the number of thermal regulators you have.  It's more limited by the amount of radiator pipe -and- the input temperature of the P-O2.  With the right setup, a single thermal regulator could process 1000G/s of P-O2 into LOX.. if the temp of the P-O2 started at around -152.  Of course, this assumes that you're pumping full 1000 gram packets of hydrogen through it every second.  Since this is pretty hard to do, it's probably way more realistic to aim for around -117 input on the P-O2 with a decent heat-exchanger between the P-O2 and the very cold oxygen, which would give you around 500G/s of P-O2 into LOX.  Which is basically what the machine I posted was doing towards the end.

[Kabrute]

1 hour ago, The Flying Fox said:

if the temp of the P-O2 started at around -152.

So your moving 1000 grams per second of hydrogen, through 1 cooler, I'm spreading 765 grams per second of hydrogen movement across 14 coolers, I'm getting a nearly 29.8 degree difference between input and output temps on the hydrogen in every line, this allows me to put basically any amount of material at nearly any temperature into the system, set the temp and turn on my pumps and walk away, no shut downs, no over cooling, constant steady, worry free conversion.  I almost get where your coming from but your system is where I started, back at page 1 of this superbly long post, and this is where I am now, 10 dupes a day and growing.  Your system requires pre-prepps that I am trying to integrate into one concentrated system.

Its like if you took your system and stacked say 3,4,5 of those tubes one on top of the other so that the temp falls all the way from 30 to -185 between the top and the bottom at a constant

By spreading the work around between multiple coolers and having them run intermittently they never over heat, 1 weezy per 2 coolers, would be like having 6 or 7 weezies in the room with your 1

As for the "Ramming" thats a side effect of me controlling the door, letting the thermo control the door it settled out to bouncing in a 10k range slowly climbing in pressure/speed

I am using granite for the lines abys for the walls and thermal lines

ignore the oddities in the screen loaded my save to pull SS for ya, not playing this world anymore XD
At this point the system, this system, the outgoing LO2, is cooling the top of the coolant chamber then precooling the incoming PO2, its below -20 in there at over 700k pressure so I'm actually building up that injection temp your talking about as a side effect of heating my O2 up to a breathable temperature.....
Its all very synergystic and the only reason I am abandoning it is because the save is "No stress No sickness" and my current challenge wouldn't count if I kept those settings on.  Since I know the system functions and scales as a function of time my improvements are to try to reduce the time it takes to scale thus making the system feasible for larger bases

[The Flying Fox]

1 hour ago, Kabrute said:

So your moving 1000 grams per second of hydrogen, through 1 cooler, I'm spreading 765 grams per second of hydrogen movement across 14 coolers, I'm getting a nearly 29.8 degree difference between input and output temps on the hydrogen in every line, this allows me to put basically any amount of material at nearly any temperature into the system, set the temp and turn on my pumps and walk away, no shut downs, no over cooling, constant steady, worry free conversion.  I almost get where your coming from but your system is where I started, back at page 1 of this superbly long post, and this is where I am now, 10 dupes a day and growing.  Your system requires pre-prepps that I am trying to integrate into one concentrated system.

Its like if you took your system and stacked say 3,4,5 of those tubes one on top of the other so that the temp falls all the way from 30 to -185 between the top and the bottom at a constant

By spreading the work around between multiple coolers and having them run intermittently they never over heat, 1 weezy per 2 coolers, would be like having 6 or 7 weezies in the room with your 1
 

...

 

I get where you're coming from as well, although there wasn't really hiccups with my system either.  It just worked and I let it run for a long time and eventually it reached around 500G/s.  But yeah, I can see that you're system would need less time to prime up because the loops are shorter.  So, I'll give you that.  

 

On the other-hand, from the sounds of your other posts, you're getting about 800 to 1000 G/s of LOX out of the machine, maybe a little more?  You state how many Dupes are breathing from the oxygen made by the machine but not directly how much it's producing.  (Which I can understand how that would be troublesome to easily measure.)  But, if that's the case, then your setup produces only twice to three times as much as mine did and you're using 9 wheezeworts, verse the 3 I used.  So, technically, they're about the same in efficiency from the looks of it.

 

In fact, this doesn't surprise me as each machine is ultimately limited by how much they can be cooled as long as the pre-coolers work well enough.  After-all, wheezeworts have a fixed amount of heat they can remove.  So, it really just comes out as a wash.  I just prefer having less devices to deal with which saves materials and space, but I can see how one could favor using more regulators to possibly reduce hassle.

[Kabrute]

That machine wasn't done getting up to speed, thats only 100 cycles from construction to the point of 500g/s, I was watching 60kg blocks convert ever 2 minutes give or take by the time I stopped and moved on but it was improving and increasing with each cycle so I would argue that this system, given a "Long time" could cycle up much higher than 500g/s which is the point.  The faster we can get to processing industrial quantities of LOX the sooner the ideology I have in mind goes from dream to viable system.  Last month I couldn't even make LOX

[The Flying Fox]

19 hours ago, Kabrute said:

That machine wasn't done getting up to speed, thats only 100 cycles from construction to the point of 500g/s, I was watching 60kg blocks convert ever 2 minutes give or take by the time I stopped and moved on but it was improving and increasing with each cycle so I would argue that this system, given a "Long time" could cycle up much higher than 500g/s which is the point.  The faster we can get to processing industrial quantities of LOX the sooner the ideology I have in mind goes from dream to viable system.  Last month I couldn't even make LOX

Yeah, I know what you mean, when using a pre-cooler, the priming time of these machines can take a loooooong time!    And, I think I have some idea what you're trying to do.  It be neat to try an oxygen delivery system based on transporting LOX in liquid pipes, instead of gaseous oxygen.  A single liquid pipe pumping LOX running at full capacity could transport enough oxygen for 100 Dupes, verse 10 for a gas pipe.  Is over-board?  Sure!  Still, it be fun to try and get such a system working.

 

It makes me recall when someone created and posted a Liquefied Natural Gas system for storing vast amounts of natural gas.  It was certainly neat!

[Zarquan]

It would be nice to use a liquid pump, except for the fact that the liquid oxygen is very cold.   You would have to have multiple places across your base to heat it up a ton.  I think it would actually end up being easier to put all the O2 in one room and use it to precool the polluted o2.  I mean, I hope you aren't planning to dump liquid oxygen on your duplicants and say "YOU WANTED OXYGEN!!! HERE'S OXYGEN FOR YOU!!! STOP WHINING AND GET BACK TO WORK!"   

[trukogre]

12 hours ago, Zarquan said:

It would be nice to use a liquid pump, except for the fact that the liquid oxygen is very cold.   You would have to have multiple places across your base to heat it up a ton.  I think it would actually end up being easier to put all the O2 in one room and use it to precool the polluted o2.  I mean, I hope you aren't planning to dump liquid oxygen on your duplicants and say "YOU WANTED OXYGEN!!! HERE'S OXYGEN FOR YOU!!! STOP WHINING AND GET BACK TO WORK!"   

Yea, you feed liquid oxygen to the showers instead of water and wait for the screams

[Kabrute]

The Merry Friends.sav

As per request, here is save file with nothing going wrong that I can find.  Its no sress no sickness, If you want a similar one with those features then wait before clicking the link below, its not done but its a decently good start. @pg13 would you see if you can run the antfarm for me?

 

The Outrageous Antfarm.sav

[Kabrute]

Watching 100k block convert is..... awesome

[pg13]

@Kabrute I could try although I don't find these kinds of bases that enjoyable, I like striving towards making life for my dupes as comfortable and simple as possible, instead of just straight up surviving for as long as possible. But I could give it a go, can't see what the breaking point would be for me with all that food honestly.

[Zarquan]

Out of curiosity, are you using the cold O2 to precool the PO2?  I've been working on a scheme like that and it easily heated the -180C o2 to a nice 20C and the 40C PO2 to around -160C.  The specific heat capacity of PO2 is a little higher than O2 and there is a significant temperature differential, so you would need to remove some heat.  My believe is that the optimal scheme should be thermally insulated except the mechanism that removes the heat, so no heat from the outside world can get in, as that would be an additional heat source that would need to be compensated for.

1.005 J/g/K * 203K - (1.01 J/g/K * 223 K) = -21.215 J/g.  If you want to liquefy some mass of polluted O2 every second, that would come out to me -21.215 W/g.  This number could decrease if I were to find a way to heat the O2 with the PO2 more (without thermoregulators).

According to the wiki, a thermo regulator operating on hydrogen removes 16800 J/s (or W) of energy from the hydrogen.  That means that you should be able to get 791.9 g/s of cleaned oxygen per thermoregulator.  That is a pretty good energy cost.  It is about half as efficient as an electrolyzer, but it doesn't consume water.  Plus, you do not need to spend energy to heat the O2 or precool the polluted O2.   If none of your dupes have mouth breathing or divers lungs, then it would take 13 thermoregulators to provide enough clean O2 for them.

However, we can not expect perfect thermal transfer.  Also, the pipes could be annoying if you are trying to produce more than 4000 g/s of O2, as you may end up with liquid hydrogen.  What if you used liquid O2 of liquid hydrogen as the coolant?  The 10000 g/s limit on the pipes, plus the possibility of wolframite pipes, could be useful.  Unfortunately, I do not have the thermal stats for liquid hydrogen, but it is probably better than liquid oxygen. 

I'll try building the scheme I have in mind and I'll post it when I am done.

I should note that I forgot to add the heat generated by the gas pumps to my calculations, but I do not know those numbers off the top of my head and I can't really open the game right now.

[Kabrute]

@ZarquanYes I am precooling my po2 with my outbound O2, the only pump in the cooler is the liquid pump setting the limit of material transfer at 10kg/s roughly the needs of 100 dupes, I know it looks like all tile, but thats all abysallite tile as is the coolers pull heat from the po2, the tuner pulls heat from the coolers, the out bound o2, once it gets cold will become the tuners coolant, for now its still fighting for that precool status with a 100k in every square in the coolant tube smh, the temperature range of liquids is too small, gas hydrogen covers the entire range of O2 from gas to solid and back again, i'm not running anything in this system at full bore, i've throttled the coolers and the tuner to cause them to hold standing blocks in their pipes, and push fresh cold into those blocks from the units, this creates cold injection points that then act as my thermal levers to help me shove metric tons of gas around in temperature.  While your calculations may undoubtedly be correct this is the only system I have found so far that doesn't use weezeworts or any heat deletion of any kind, doesn't need monitoring, wont freeze over and is using ice right now to cool it till it hits self cooling

To my sheer amazement the liquid coming out of the vent locks onto that metal and dumps all of its thermal energy up the metal rail which cools my incoming po2   I'm about 8 degrees from another LOx dump so I will post a pic of the rail below 0 with that tile still at 15 abysallite tile normal reacts with LOx but with the metal rail it seems to act as a thermal bypass....

Set this thermometer 2 degrees higher than you want your outgoing clean O2 .  The hydrogen is acting is a bottleneck and thermal buffer, its the easiest way to have a floating valve, if pressure to low the hydrogen stoppers the outgoing o2 preventing the super cold stuff at the bottom from just constantly leaking out.   I am setting it to -20 and letting it run.
With the pressure in the tube rising I've upped the speed of all the of equipment.  Aquatuner 4100, Top cooler 200, 290, 250, 220, 180, 150 , 135, 120, 90.  Its still technically in the cooling down phase though it is now starting to steer the door so those are the running setting to constantly convert 30k and smaller blocks and to steer 100-400k blocks down to liquid

 

If my downstream pressure gets to be too much these doors can be switched from 0 to Top door Below 2000     Bottom door Above 1200     This will cause them to act as a pressure throttle.  Running at these higher settings was made possible with a combination of oil, water, and hydrogen. 

[Kabrute]

Using PIce and Ice had complicated side effects, however the pool of water i'm using to sterilize slime makes a wonderful ice machine for the water that cooks off my aquatuner.  One of the compactors in that tank is pice the rest are slime   You may notice the block of ice on the edge of that tank, if you look closely there is a ladder behind it.... if i dig out that block I lose half the material in it, if it melts I get everything out of it.  This holds true for melty items only, others tend to turn to dirt/sand/glass



The Oxidizers current form is producing 1Mg of Lox every 1.5 cycles for 1000 to 1400 watts.  Someone correct my math but a cycle is 10 minutes, so 600 seconds, thats 900 seconds for 1000k, or 1.1kg/s roughly 10 dupes worth of air while its cooling down for the cost of 3 dupes worth of energy I forgot to install the lox buffer in the bottom though

[Kabrute]

Heat Deletion integrated

 

220k lox Mark time 1/4 cycle in


 

1/4 cycle later 260k lox

[The Flying Fox]

@Kabrute

 

Your new machine reminds me of an even older design that I created back in the AU update.

 

Similar in trying to use the cold O2 to self-cool the thermal regulators. (Which ran in parallel so each processed half the stream of hydrogen gas)  It ran for quite a long time before I ran out of easy sources of P-O2 in that game although, over-time, the right thermal regulator was starting to get close to the over-heating temp.  I felt like either adding a third regulator and/or a single wheezewort would have been good enough to keep the machine running for nearly forever.  It certainly didn't process P-O2 very fast, around 100G/s give or take, but I liked the design because of how simple and cheap it was to run.  But yeah, creating a system that's contained and can (nearly) self-cool itself should be doable without resorting to using the cooling bugs out there.

[Kabrute]

Exact same concept only here the metal rail is actually acting like a multi staged valved regulator, the temperature on either side of it cannot be more than a few degrees off from it, so the gas is held in the tubes on both sides at the temp it does the most good, this is what lets the incoming air temp control the outgoing air temp, and why my placement is 2.8 degrees offset from the outcoming air

 

[Kabrute]

This should drive the temp down another 30 degrees before passing the Lox back to the rail so the insertion temp goes from -184 to -214 this should eventually cause these auqa tuners to become the constant cooler, their lox output should cause lox to drip from the metal rail, testing to follow but if this works then future systems will be incorporating this extra coolant discharge    I will probably put a valve right before the reinsertion point.  For now its theory, one tuner would probably be sufficient and if I rebuild this system I will replace the one tuner with weezies in the tower and probably put that tuner to cooling the lox down further.

[Kabrute]

 

Using 2 bridges to install a smart bypass, if there is room in the cooler line it will pump the Lox to the auqatuners, else it moves on to the vent without being backfed on a loop through the machines

 

 

[Cypher-7]

On 2017-12-14 at 3:30 AM, Kabrute said:

those little air scrubbers aren't up to the task so i'm gonna go big on the air cooler XD

Can you explain what you achieve by hooking up the transformers that way?

[Kabrute]

nothing but blown wires, and dont build that, it technically worked but its not as powerful as the new system