About the icebox trap set piece

[Mudley]

Since the original Don't Starve, I always liked the trap set pieces, and I think they translated really well to multiplayer, except one.

While all of them affects the player who fell for it, the icebox trap affects the entire server, and I don't think a mistake that a new player could easily make should affect everyone else.

Yes, I know it's not the end of the world, any experienced enough player can survive a sudden winter. But still, I don't like the idea of an entire server paying the price for a mistake so small.

[Asparagus]

It's kinda funny at times when someone announces it on global chat that they found the trap... but when someone doesn't... boy... the sodium content is justifiably increased in the server... 

[Bahlsen]

This was posted one month ago in the suggestions and feedback section :

I thought that it can arguably be compared to the old bell in term of destructive potential, and they removed it. Personally I'm comfortable enough with the game to survive when it happens and I even find it pretty exciting so I wouldn't preach against the traps, but in my experience when it's activated the result is everyone leaving or dying so I'd understand if this was to be removed.

[Serph]

I made a topic a month ago asking for them to remove them but with no results.

I've never seen a server fully survive an early winter/summer trap. Just yesterday i jumped on a official server and someone triggered a winter trap on day 6 so everyone left. They didn't even bother dying to reset. Sometimes a few players insist they can make it but give up after deerclops comes / their base lights on fire.

Old bell isn't comparable, it's not something most people would know how to do. can't be done "by accident", and the damages can still be repaired. Season traps effects are much worse (simply opening a chest ruins the entire server) and yet it's not removed for some reason.

[CaptainFun]

I was hoping that for DST/Through the Ages that klei could come up with a bunch of new setpieces, with new traps and such, like maybe a full bee box trap that spawns Bearger.

[FTR]

I love icebox trap. It really shakes things a lot, and it's really funny when someone write "oooh I found icebox!" and second later winter starts. Sure it may kill the server, but it's usually still first autumn so no big deal, people didn't play for too long.

[Rily]

This game is about be careful and learn from the mistakes, a newbie triggered the trap?, ok, then he/she will die and lesson learned, let the game start again or just make rollback.
If you get mad with this kind of things you must ask to everyone who enters to your world how many days he/she survived, then you can estimate how experienced is the player and give some advices, take care of the new ones, we all were noobs once

[BeastNips]

2 minutes ago, Rily said:

This game is about be careful and learn from the mistakes, a newbie triggered the trap?, ok, then he/she will die and lesson learned, let the game start again or just make rollback.
If you get mad with this kind of things you must ask to everyone who enters to your world how many days he/she survived, then you can estimate how experienced is the player and give some advices, take care of the new ones, we all were noobs once

I totally agree with the idea of this (the learning from mistakes, not the experience check), Don't Starve is all about learning from mistakes. In single player if you find that and open it, then Winter falls, you quite easily put 2 and 2 together. After this you never open it again.

The problem with multi-player is that it isn't obvious what caused Winter to fall if you've never seen the trap. DST is very unpredictable for a new players since you don't know whether it's something you've done or something someone else has done; did I spawn this giant? Did it spawn naturally? Did someone else spawn it? I think the winter trap is something that holds quite a high price for something that may not be learnt the first time. Regardless of what should happen or what players can do when Winter falls early, in reality most leave the server, whether it's instantly or after 10-15 days of struggling.

Compromise: Make it optional.

[Rily]

Just now, BeastNips said:

The problem with multi-player is that it isn't obvious what caused Winter to fall if you've never seen the trap. DST is very unpredictable for a new players since you don't know whether it's something you've done or something someone else has done; did I spawn this giant? Did it spawn naturally? Did someone else spawn it? I think the winter trap is something that holds quite a high price for something that may not be learnt the first time. Regardless of what should happen or what players can do when Winter falls early, in reality most leave the server, whether it's instantly or after 10-15 days of struggling.

Compromise: Make it optional.

I agree with that, now, when you open the trap chest there is a deerclops roar, pretty easy to recognize, isn't hard to understand that the trap is the source of the problem right?, instead everyone else shout about that anyway, is easy to find a guilty and understand what the trap does, after all is pretty rare a free chest and icebox isn't it?, I thinking that the rollback function exist to solve this kind of problems with newbies and trolls, problem solved.

However, with all the world customization options there aren't options for the setpieces, the possibility to turn off setpieces or make them more frequent should exist and I'm with you with that.

[Mudley]

1 hour ago, Rily said:

This game is about be careful and learn from the mistakes, a newbie triggered the trap?, ok, then he/she will die and lesson learned, let the game start again or just make rollback.

This excuse could be used for any element that was nerfed in Together.

 

Ghost set something on fire while haunting? Rollback, lesson learned.

Ringing the Old bell too close to camp? Rollback, lesson learned.

Willow player setting things on fire for having low sanity? Rollback, lesson learned.

 

Not counting that all of those and the icebox trap could be done not just accidentally, but also for pure malice.

Also, what about public dedicated servers? Most of them the host is not present, so there is no way to ask for a rollback.

[rezecib]

Personally I really like the trap and the whole "learn from mistakes" aspect of it, so I would like to see it stay. But I understand that with multiple players the cause/effect can be decoupled a bit here.

Perhaps this is a case where the announcement system could be used? It's a little bit hard to decide what it should say, but something along the lines of "<player> has disturbed the forces of nature, and winter is upon us!". It should be pretty obvious to the player who triggered it what happened, and this gives everyone else the opportunity to understand that it was a trap, and potentially find out from that person.

[Rily]

24 minutes ago, Mudley said:

This excuse could be used for any element that was nerfed in Together.

Ghost set something on fire while haunting? Rollback, lesson learned.

Ringing the Old bell too close to camp? Rollback, lesson learned.

Willow player setting things on fire for having low sanity? Rollback, lesson learned.

Not counting that all of those and the icebox trap could be done not just accidentally, but also for pure malice.

Also, what about public dedicated servers? Most of them the host is not present, so there is no way to ask for a rollback.

Wait, they add the old bell?, when? and I thought willow don't set things in fire with low sanity anymore. I'll check that later, now, for those cases you have the ban button, I think you suffered a lot with griefers, trolls and newbies, didn't you?, all multiplayer games have those kind of problems, there will be always someone who only wants to see everything on fire, for that you can set a password and play with friends, I used the rollback once when a troll came, isn't the big deal, is optional after all, you decide how to play, my server is full of noobs always and I always told them what they must do if they had problems, zero problems, communication is the key, is always better a new inexperienced but enthusiast friend that a kicked angry noob, and Im not sure of how the trolls are in this game, I always find players that even leave the server if they think that are playing bad, is easy to find new friends now sharing your wisdom and being polite, isn't hard to know who wants to play seriously right?. And the @rezecib idea is pretty good

[Mudley]

17 minutes ago, Rily said:

Wait, they add the old bell?, when? and I thought willow don't set things in fire with low sanity anymore.

No, they are still removed, that's the point

17 minutes ago, Rily said:

I think you suffered a lot with griefers, trolls and newbies, didn't you?

Not that much really, I definitely don't have that blind hate for griefers like some people here. I was always against suggestions like making a list of griefers and punishing their accounts.

17 minutes ago, Rily said:

for that you can set a password and play with friends, I used the rollback once when a troll came, isn't the big deal

Repeating what I said before: "Also, what about public dedicated servers? Most of them the host is not present, so there is no way to ask for a rollback."

[Sivdun]

Nothing beats the moment when you found winter trap at last day of winter and open it so you and your fellow server members can have extra 16 days of it.

[Rily]

1 hour ago, Mudley said:

Also, what about public dedicated servers? Most of them the host is not present, so there is no way to ask for a rollback.

ok, for those cases just don't join, when you enter to a unknown server you are assuming the consequences, you will not have control, those servers has great chaotic potential, they are fun to play because you never know what will happen or which type of person will join, then if you want a more controlled game only create your own world, that's why I prefer play with friends and if I want to make new friends I must create the server and that's all, looks like the key now is friends, they are quite easy to find since the game launch, there are a bunch of newbies who are excited for a good survival challenge and I love to meet new surviving pals despite they don't know how to make food different from the monster lasagna

Oh, and punish their accounts? that sounds a bit rude, but in some cases I agree, I suppose that if some player get enough reports or negative points IDK he/she could be banned from the game or something, at least for a limited time, I never meet someone who deserves that but Im sure that they are out there

[Serph]

3 hours ago, rezecib said:

Personally I really like the trap and the whole "learn from mistakes" aspect of it, so I would like to see it stay. But I understand that with multiple players the cause/effect can be decoupled a bit here.

Perhaps this is a case where the announcement system could be used? It's a little bit hard to decide what it should say, but something along the lines of "<player> has disturbed the forces of nature, and winter is upon us!". It should be pretty obvious to the player who triggered it what happened, and this gives everyone else the opportunity to understand that it was a trap, and potentially find out from that person.

Nothing else in the game is announced so it doesn't make sense (who would be "announcing" it???). The player will understand it was a trap because at least 1 person in the chat will say it was a trap. Besides, that doesn't solve the problem, only changes the blame from "someone" to "X player". If a newbie triggers summer/winter by accident and feels sorry, the last thing they need is a giant announcement telling it was their fault just so everyone can start sending hate.

[rezecib]

2 minutes ago, Serph said:

Nothing else in the game is announced

Player joins, player leaves, player deaths, player skins, all game events that are announced. I agree that this is an extension of the role of announcements, but well, that was pretty much the entire point of the idea ("we have these announcements and there are other things we could be using them for").

7 minutes ago, Serph said:

Besides, that doesn't solve the problem, only changes the blame from "someone" to "X player".

You're talking about a completely different problem. The fact that it completely screws over the server is not a problem, all sorts of things in the game are designed to do this (such as ghost sanity drain, or the seasons when they behave normally). These sorts of punishing mechanics are part of the design of Don't Starve. The problem I was addressing was, at the across-games level, the impacts of the winter trap span beyond the person who actually learns from it. Announcement addresses (but does not solve) that problem, by conveying the information to more players so that they can learn from it.

Encouraging blaming the player is a real concern, but I think that's better than the current low-information state. Newcomers already get blame for mistakes, such when they die and cause sanity drain. I don't think there's really a good way around that, if you want to keep the punishing nature of Don't Starve.

However, another idea: Endless Mode was created as a compromise: "maybe some players don't want the full punishing experience". It makes sense to have the trap be sensitive to the mode-- what if it just didn't trigger in Endless?

[Mudley]

6 minutes ago, rezecib said:

The fact that it completely screws over the server is not a problem

Yes, yes it is.

Seasons follow a pattern and an order, so they don't screw over the server.

Ghost sanity drain was recently nerfed for the exact reason that it screwed over the server.

[rezecib]

@Mudley Sorry, I guess I should've been more explicit.

There are at least two ways to view this:

• Don't Starve should be a punishing game. Under this view, it's not a problem.
• Some people don't want the game to be so punishing. Endless mode was created for these people. The trap could be disabled in Endless mode.

[Mudley]

Just now, rezecib said:

@Mudley Sorry, I guess I should've been more explicit.

There are at least two ways to view this:

• Don't Starve should be a punishing game. Under this view, it's not a problem.
• Some people don't want the game to be so punishing. Endless mode was created for these people. The trap could be disabled in Endless mode.

It's not about being too punishing. Hell, I think the game is not as punishing as it should in certain aspects.

The problem is being punishing to players not involved.

[rezecib]

@Mudley But under the punishing view, the original design perspective of Don't Starve, it's all about random stuff happening that makes the game harder for you (for example, hound attacks, lureplants, spider queens, treeguards). It doesn't matter that they didn't do anything to cause it. It's a potential hazard and one they can deal with. Sudden winter is not insurmountable, especially considering how long trees will burn for now (45 seconds). It's much easier to handle than it was in single-player.

[Serph]

Getting screwed by others is part of the game. My problem with the traps isn't how punishing they are, it's how much "low effort-high effect" they have. It's the biggest game change a server can have and yet anyone can triggger it anytime by accident.

From a gameplay standpoint nothing in the game should do this much consequence. Especially when you consider the fire spread change, Werebeaver nerfed and Old Bell was removed for being their destructive properties.

[Mudley]

@rezecib

• Hound attacks aren't random, they do have a pattern.
• Since when lureplants are punishing? And if you're talking about getting rid of them, the failure to do so will punish the player trying to, not everyone.
• The only way that spider queens to be punishing would be either trying to fight it, or having your camp close to a tier 3 spider nest. both of those affecting only the players involved and still possible to prevent.
• Treeguards will only attack the one who triggered it.

[rezecib]

@Mudley

local attack_levels =
{
	intro	=	{ warnduration = function() return 120 end, numspawns = function() return 2 end },
	light	=	{ warnduration = function() return 60 end, numspawns = function() return 2 + math.random(2) end },
	med		=	{ warnduration = function() return 45 end, numspawns = function() return 3 + math.random(3) end },
	heavy	=	{ warnduration = function() return 30 end, numspawns = function() return 4 + math.random(3) end },
	crazy	=	{ warnduration = function() return 30 end, numspawns = function() return 6 + math.random(4) end },
}

local attack_delays =
{
	rare		= function() return TUNING.TOTAL_DAY_TIME * 6, math.random() * TUNING.TOTAL_DAY_TIME * 7 end,
	occasional	= function() return TUNING.TOTAL_DAY_TIME * 4, math.random() * TUNING.TOTAL_DAY_TIME * 7 end,
	frequent	= function() return TUNING.TOTAL_DAY_TIME * 3, math.random() * TUNING.TOTAL_DAY_TIME * 5 end,
}

My point was that there are substantial random components to each of these things. The randomness means that the person being affected by it doesn't control when it happens. It doesn't matter who triggers the winter trap, to everyone else it might as well be a random event.

[Mudley]

@rezecib It would make the conversation flow more easily if you explained what part of the code does what.

EDIT: Okay, since you didn't, I will play the guessing game.

I assume 'attack_levels' are how much hounds attack you each wave. Yes, some more added randomly, but still there a set number of hounds that are guarandid to spawn.

'attack_delays' is probably the time between waves. Same as the other one, some randoness in a set pattern. Both of those aren't completly random.

Also mentioning:

• Hound attacks have a warning before happening, giving the players time to do some preparing.
• They scale, they start easy and become more changeling as the time passes, just like seasons.
• They aren't as nearly damaging as a sudden winter/summer.