Griefing: Ultimate Solutions

[Bael]

Hi all,

 

This post will be dealing with griefers in Dedicated Endless/Wilderness (non-pvp) servers, and proposing a solution to them. Why these servers? Well, these are the only servers that continue running without resets. Thus, apart from personally hosted servers, or servers hosted by a group of friends with a specified game time each night/certain nights, they are the only servers that offer continuity from one day to the next.

 

In the current DST (unmodded), such a server is not truly possible/enjoyable. Players would simply burn down vast areas, or hammer whatever they could find. Until such time as resources are too scarce for trolls to even survive long enough to find the few hidden bases, and once there, not have any resources to build hammers.

 

What would make the server better?

 

Regeneration

No Haunt (ghosts can't haunt)

Burn regrowth (plants and trees that are burnt regrow)

Simple protection

 

These all exist at this time, and while the latter one can be circumvented if desperate enough, they are still not enough.

 

Now, I am not familiar with the programming/mechanics required, but what I feel is needed is either some sort of totem or turf type that would reserve an area or radius for a certain player.

 

The totem:

 

It would need to be built near several of your buildings (say three). If several players had building near it, it would include them in the permissions. Within this radius, only the players with permissions would be able to hammer anything down or burn anything down (or build anything). Permissions could be given to other players. In addition to locked and indestructible chests/freezers, this would protect a player from just about any griefer. There would likely be a limit of two totems, although they could be upgraded for greater radius. They could not be built near the portal.

 

The alternative would be to disable hammers.

 

Just spitballing an idea, let me know what you think and whether it would even be possible within the confines of the game code. We really need something to protect against griefers, otherwise longterm servers just wouldn't be enjoyable.

[Bael]

Aaaaaand, I guess this should go in the Dedicated Server Section?

[ailailou]

I've been thinking about this whole griefing matter as well, and I've started asking myself what the most important reasons to craft and own a hammer are:

• tearing down structures (duh!)
• tearing down pig heads from touch stones

How many times does one tear down structures? Only a few times, maybe to tear down the science machine once alchemy is up, destroy pig houses and that's about it. Considering the durability of a hammer, one pretty much won't need more than 2 hammers in total. All the stuff mentioned earlier can be done by 1 person when it's really needed (such as getting pigskin from pig houses).

 

How about we move the hammer to the Alchemy Engine tier, and only make it so that only the player who constructs the Alchemy Engine can craft the tool? If a griefer wants to feck a random base he'll need to actually gather stuff for an alchemy engine and construct it himself in order to craft the hammer.

Of course, this whole "gather stuff up part" would be harder if chests would finally be lockable, so that the griefer won't just have the possibility to get the required resources from your stuff and just build the alchemy engine.

[Bael]

That is certainly an interesting idea, and seemingly easier to implement (from a layman's perspective). Of course, it would be somewhat akin to the current "Simple Protection", in that it would protect for a time only, and the dedicated troll would still get through. At least there would be a resource factor in addition to the time factor that Simple Protection allows for.

 

I know that boxes can be set so that a certain person/people can access it, but that is either full access or no access. I wonder if there is even a possibility currently to track who builds what? I don't see why they would have it, but I wonder if it could be implemented?

 

PS: Maybe locked boxes could be made a separate building, that comes from the prestihatitator? 2 dark fuel, 2 gold, 10 stone, maybe a purple gem? Double the storage space of a normal box, locked and indestructible? Might be worth suggesting in a topic on its own.

[ailailou]

PS: Maybe locked boxes could be made a separate building, that comes from the prestihatitator? 2 dark fuel, 2 gold, 10 stone, maybe a purple gem? Double the storage space of a normal box, locked and indestructible? Might be worth suggesting in a topic on its own.

This makes me think about having a secure lockable box, aka safe, in game. It could be opened only with a key combination (a menu similar to the crockpot instead of ingredients slot there'd be numbers), and it could store gold and other valuable items such as gravedigger items, amulets or papyrus. Very resistant and can't be set on fire. But besides the secured key combination feature I wouldn't see the actual use for a safe, unless it could store any type of items, but that wouldn't make sense logic-wise, but since when does logic have it's place in the Don't Starve universe?

 

I wonder if there is even a possibility currently to track who builds what? I don't see why they would have it, but I wonder if it could be implemented?

You know how in dst Chester follows whoever has the eyebone in their inventory? Having a "something" that tracks who builds what shouldn't, I think, be impossible to implement from a programming point of view. Skeletons are able to store and display the names of those who once were alive, the Alchemy Engine could be named "Baels Alchemy Engine" or "Ailailous Alchemy Engine".

 

PS: Maybe locked boxes could be made a separate building, that comes from the prestihatitator? 2 dark fuel, 2 gold, 10 stone, maybe a purple gem? Double the storage space of a normal box, locked and indestructible? Might be worth suggesting in a topic on its own.

 

At the same time take a look at this. In case you've already seen my post on that thread, I believe that characters will be able to craft one of those keys, with each key being unique in the world just like the Eyebone is. Upon using the key on a chest an animation might take place which would change the keyhole to the one that is paired with the key. So I believe that one key will be able to be used on multiple chests, however, I am not sure what would happen if you are playing with a teammate who has to use the chests on a regular basis, because handing the key over and over again and again from one to another just to check a bunch of chests wouldn't be very practical. Hm, what if the player could open a locked chest only when the one holding the key in his inventory is somewhat close to the chest as well? You'd say "Hey Ailailou, come over here and "lend" me the key to our chests" and I'd simply approach the chests and I wouldn't need to actually hand you the key, instead you'd be able to open them like regular chests while I am close to them, in other words the key would have a radius making the locked chest(s) unlocked.

[bigpak]

I think haunting needs to not set things on fire, its awful. Whenever I join a dedicated server all I see is just burnt forests. It's sad. It cannot be enjoyable when the trolls are the ones that have the advantage.

[ailailou]

Now, I am not familiar with the programming/mechanics required, but what I feel is needed is either some sort of totem or turf type that would reserve an area or radius for a certain player.

The totem idea could work in a way similiar to the Flingomatic in RoG. But having a totem which using an invisible shield protects your base from griefers trying to destroy your stuff sounds a little bit to esoteric for the world of Don't Starve.

 

What do you say about the following approach:

 

There are clues in the game files that gates might be implemented in the game some way or another. So you build a wall around your base, put the gate, and lock it with one of the keys. This, I believe, fits somewhat better in the range of game mechanics and ideology of the Don't Starve universe. But now you'd think "All right, what's stopping people from simply hammering one wall piece or the gate itself?". At the moment the Hammer has the same properties as any other weapon (and tools as well) in the game, that being durability and damage. Walls have "health points" so you basically make damage to walls with the hammer which is counted the same way as dealing damage to an enemy using a weapon. Now, stone walls shouldn't be like any other structures which can be destroyed easily, walls should be strong and sturdy, just like Wolfgangs muscles. We shouldn't be able to tear down a piece of wall with just a hammer, instead let's give Gunpowder another use besides killing Giants . Increasing the walls hitpoints wouldn't be a viable solution either, because we still want them to brake down from hound attacks and other enemies.

 

Maybe the Hammer could be treated differently from a weapon, and instead be treated as a tool similar to the Razor. In this way it would only act as a tool to destroy every other structure in the game besides walls and gates. The number of hits needed to destroy a certain structure would be predefined in the game files, like say a Science Machine would need 3 hits to be destroyed, a Chest would need 1 hit, a firepit would need 2 hits and so on.

 

Now let's suppose that the hammer would be treated in the way I described it in the paragraph above. In this case, the griefer would just approach the camp which you managed to surround and enclose with a gate, equip a spear or any other weapon, and start attacking the walls using Ctrl+F until they are brought down to rubble making him able to squeeze inside the camp. What might we do now from a game desing point of view? Well, one shouldn't be able to take down a stone wall with just a Spear or Tentacle Spike either. At the same time, we want to keep the health points for the walls so that the big mean Deerclops and other soon-to-be-implemented-seasonal-giants can have fun and chew on them. In this case to eliminate the forced attack of a wall using a weapon, a condition could be put which says something like 

if weapon_dmg < 150 //with wolfgang multiplier that be a maximum of 132 dmg using the best weapon the game offers, Dark Spear with 68 dmgwall_untargetable

By the time I wrote the stuff above I realized, heck, why not simply make the walls and gate untargetable for players, the same way we can't attack a science machine or a firepit (assuming the Hammer would work the way I described it earlier)? This way I can leave my camp, lock the door and be assured that absolutely nobody would enter, unless they'd somehow find a way to destroy the walls by other means (luring hounds nearby, losing the agro, resulting in the hounds starting to attack the walls until they are turned to rubble).

 

But what if at this point, another sort of griefer appears, the one who plays for many many seasons in order to build a base surrounded by walls and inaccessible to anyone without gunpowder, the griefer who starts collecting more and more nonrenewable resources and stores them inside the camp? Well, that would be the best griefer the game could have, giving the game a twist with certain players owning somewhat big parts of the world resources, resulting in the act of trading.

 

"Dude, you've got all the rocky turfs on the map, what do you ask for 10 pieces?",

 

"It's not fair for one player to own all the berry bushes in the game, so I'm gonna get together a bunch of people, go over to his fortress, and blow his walls to pieces with Gunpowder!"

[Bael]

I am indeed intrigued by the keys and keyholes! That would be great!

 

You know how in dst Chester follows whoever has the eyebone in their inventory? Having a "something" that tracks who builds what shouldn't, I think, be impossible to implement from a programming point of view. Skeletons are able to store and display the names of those who once were alive, the Alchemy Engine could be named "Baels Alchemy Engine" or "Ailailous Alchemy Engine".

 

 

At the same time take a look at this. In case you've already seen my post on that thread, I believe that characters will be able to craft one of those keys, with each key being unique in the world just like the Eyebone is. Upon using the key on a chest an animation might take place which would change the keyhole to the one that is paired with the key. So I believe that one key will be able to be used on multiple chests, however, I am not sure what would happen if you are playing with a teammate who has to use the chests on a regular basis, because handing the key over and over again and again from one to another just to check a bunch of chests wouldn't be very practical. Hm, what if the player could open a locked chest only when the one holding the key in his inventory is somewhat close to the chest as well? You'd say "Hey Ailailou, come over here and "lend" me the key to our chests" and I'd simply approach the chests and I wouldn't need to actually hand you the key, instead you'd be able to open them like regular chests while I am close to them, in other words the key would have a radius making the locked chest(s) unlocked.

 

I would say that you could open the chest yourself all the time, but if you had the key equipped, your friend could also open it. This would prevent a person from sneaking your stuff when you run near the chest without intending to give people access.

 

The totem idea could work in a way similiar to the Flingomatic in RoG. But having a totem which using an invisible shield protects your base from griefers trying to destroy your stuff sounds a little bit to esoteric for the world of Don't Starve.

 

What do you say about the following approach:

 

 

I gave some thought to a concept similar in result (mostly, indestructible walls), but the reason that I rejected it is because it is altogether too easy to troll with. Don't like that person who just logged off? Wall him in! (well, his relog spot) Don't like the person who just went afk? WALL HIM IN! Don't like people coming through the portal? WALL THEM IN!!!! 

 

Giving some more thought to it, I wonder how /often/ it would actually be used like that though? It doesn't happen very much right now, just with plain stone walls. Of course, if I /did/ happen, you would have a serious problem. But even so.

 

Ultimately, anything that is implemented will be abuseable to some degree or another, and circumventable one degree or another.

[shadow91]

It does not have to be as hard as you guys are talking about. Simply apply a vote to kick and or ban option. Period. Allow every player a vote(except for griever) and majority rules.

[shadow91]

Vote to kick and/or ban option. Allow every player a vote(except the griever) and majority rulesPERIOD

[rezecib]

@shadow91, Votekick already exists.

[shadow91]

How do I do it???

 

[applebottom]

How do I do it???

 

If you press TAB in-game, the list of players inside the server show up. There are icons beside each name with options to mute, kick, view profile, etc.

[Bael]

It does not have to be as hard as you guys are talking about. Simply apply a vote to kick and or ban option. Period. Allow every player a vote(except for griever) and majority rules.

 

Well, there is already a vote/kick available, although a lot of servers don't seem to have it (?). Also, it is virtually impossible to get everyone to vote/kick a person even ONCE (because it needs to be unanimous -1). What chances of getting it done repeatedly to get them banned? And even then, it is not a permanent ban, but increasing in increments.

[Crynux]

One option could be to change the burn mechanic so that the spread is determined by how long the player has been on the server. So if you've been there for a day or two... anything you try to burn will only spread to one or two things/trees. Chances are griefers won't wait 100 days to burn down a forest.

 

For hammering; remember who built it on the server. Put a check-box in next to each player in the player list (I believe there's a TAB-based player list, haven't played in some time). The check-box would be unchecked by default. If you want to allow someone to hammer your stuff, simply check the check-box next to their name; otherwise nobody can touch it. This could also be used for chest access!

 

This check-box idea could work if you're not on the server too. However this can become a problem as people could simply join the server and create a bunch of stuff everywhere and leave. This is where you'd have an off-line protection period, where after lets say 3 real-life days of not playing on a server, your stuff becomes automatically available for hammering or any other type of destruction.

 

My 2 cents,

-Crynux

[Bael]

That would be pretty nice.  I imagine it would like be an optional setting? Because there would be building trolling, as you say, where people build stuff to mess up your base. And then do log in.

[Crynux]

Yeah, they both could be server settings; it could be possible to determine the Offline grace period before starting the server, along with the rate of fire spread, etc.

[DarkXero]

Nice. Epic. I like it.

 

There is practically no difference between someone building something because they want to and someone building something just to put it there and pollute the world.

 

So if someone wants to log in and out constantly to reset the protection period, this can be solved by an admin kicking their ass out and then Remove()ing the things.

[Voqar]

The easy solution is to play with friends.  Zero griefing.

 

If you have no friends that's not a design/developer problem.

 

I would agree that design can minimize/reduce/eliminate the impact of griefers but that's a lot of extra design/development hassle when the game needs content/mechanics/etc that are important to ALL players and it's your choice whether you play with friends or suffer fools.

[jrose78]

So I checked my server log files from last night after I left and this is what I see:

 

[07:02:46]: [say] KU_L_1F-kMW - machomatt40: you just destroyed everything

[07:02:57]: [say] KU_-ZHbNyVe - Examtion: what u fags get

[07:02:58]: [say] KU_fnusjzhJ - Numtuckian III: where are you guys?

[07:03:01]: [say] KU_-ZHbNyVe - Examtion: how about hide your sh*t

 

The sad thing is this is common.  The solutions that I have herd and agree with

 

1.) When someone is kicked or banned: They drop their stuff <--- This is a no brainer

2.) The chests should lock <------------ The in game image of the chest has a lock so not a big deal right

3.) Hammer can only be used by admins

[Pyromailmann]

2.) The chests should lock <------------ The in game image of the chest has a lock so not a big deal right

You know, there is unused files of locks and keys. 

[jrose78]

You know, there is unused files of locks and keys. 

 

Well lets use them

[Michi01]

@jrose78
Yeah, if I'm right they were added to the files during DST
development, so they may be added soon!

 

(Originally found and posted by @ailailou)

 

[wizardhunter4]

I like the ideas

 

[mikeek]

The easy solution is to play with friends.  Zero griefing.

 

If you have no friends that's not a design/developer problem.

 

I would agree that design can minimize/reduce/eliminate the impact of griefers but that's a lot of extra design/development hassle when the game needs content/mechanics/etc that are important to ALL players and it's your choice whether you play with friends or suffer fools.

 

I feel like this solution is often overlooked. When I first heard about Don't Starve Together I thought that was the intended mode, even. Well, at first I was surprised it was even being added, but I think it actually still works out. It is, admittedly, far less tense than single player, but it's still pretty fun.

 

Servers full of strangers don't really make quite as much sense for the game's assumptions, at least for me.

 

My friends don't like Don't Starve nearly as much as I do, sadly. But there's another option for finding good people to play with: just ask around. That is, go to the server bulletins, find a server that looks like it's good and join it. If it turns out to be hosted by a tyrant or troll, find another one. If it's plagued with trolls, don't play with those people.

 

Participate in the Tales of Life and Death. Talk about your experiences in Don't Starve and read other peoples', and when someone seems like they're hosting an interesting server, strike up a conversation until you can ask if you could play on theirs. Then when you do, be nice, and not a troll, and you'll earn a reputation as a 'good' player (as in moral, not necessarily skilled), and you and these other people you've been chatting with can start a server.

 

If you don't have friends who play,  you can make them.