The stackable slowing effect erode Walter's identify and creating a Maxwell II.

[YouKnowWho142]

11 minutes ago, JazzyGames said:

The reason that fight works so well is that FW has numerous anti-range measures. But then you look at fights like Antlion, Klaus, Bearger, Moose, Clops, Armored Bearger, and Dfly, you come to realize that a sizeable chunk of enemies in DST have practically no anti-ranged measures and if slowed down with ichor rounds will basically sit there and wait to be killed. Not the most engaging gameplay experience for me.

I think this is a particularly interesting point to make. Basically 95% of basic mobs are completely instantly invalidated by the slingshot (which is fine I guess? A lot of other characters deal with basic mobs at that ease too) but there are huge cases of bosses that are completely countered by Walter. That being said, as mentioned, the bosses that are countered by Walter are the same bosses that get countered by Maxwell, or Winona, or other similar cases. I think it’s also interesting that most of the bosses you mentioned are far from new, and I think it highlights how most of the older bosses are really not up to date with what tools players have now. I think ranged combat can be fine, but the game needs some changes to reflect that and most of the older bosses do not have the capabilities to keep up. Refreshing old content, not just characters, would really help the game in this regard.

[Guille6785]

19 minutes ago, Civecilim said:

I *would* still describe new Walter and Wortox as "broken," but... I'm realizing that it doesn't matter? Am I making sense to anyone?

this is the realization that takes DST players so long to make lol

[Theukon-dos]

I've not tested/seen how effective the slowdown rounds are. But if they are as good as you make them out to be, then yeah, I'd be on board for nerfing them or changing the effect in some way.

 

That being said, Maxwell's problem wasn't simply that he could avoid his downside. It's that he was the best character in the game for doing nearly everything, fighting, farming, exploring, ect. And his downside was negligable in the first place. Walter is definitely incredibly powerful now, but he's still not nearly as all-encompasing as Maxwell is.

[shuishuihuohuo]

The weakening of the slowing bullets is completely acceptable, but I think the shadow dashing can be retained.

Woby has a very low margin of error. When I was testing Woby, I was hit by a meteorite, and then I was thrown to the ground and killed by a tallbird. The game provides two styles to increase Woby's margin of error. If you choose the lunar faction, you can quickly run away from enemies after dashing, which is a more stable style. If you choose the shadow faction, you can use the invincible time during Woby's shadow dashing to dodge enemy attacks, but it consumes more hunger, and this style requires better operational skills.

Wortox's skill tree makes him extremely proficient in teleportation. (I still dislike the skill point that adds soul containers to Wortox. It makes Wortox lose the need for soul planning and makes it a bit overpowered in terms of survival.) I think a short - distance teleportation is not enough to encroach on Wortox's privilege because Wortox's teleportation is really cheap and too powerful. Interestingly, after the skill tree update, Wortox may explore the map more efficiently than Walter.

If the shadow dashing is only considered to make the fight against the Shadow Weaver uninteresting, then the fight against the Shadow Weaver can be fixed, but this may also affect some players, such as those who use eye turrets to attack the Shadow Weaver outside the atrium.

The bosses in the From Beyond version are still being updated, and there may be bosses with long - range attacks in the future. Woby's shadow dashing may be one of the means to deal with such bosses. All in all, I really hope that the shadow dashing will not be weakened.

[Steorra]

6 minutes ago, shuishuihuohuo said:

but I think the shadow dashing can be retained.

Yes. I agree with this. the Shadow Dashing is fine once the stackable slowing effect has been fixed. the Dashing ability is a good design which encourage players to do interaction with the threats in right timing, and it brings much enjoyment.

my only balance worries about the Shadow Dashing is the cheese things. The cheapest teleport ability makes Walter could be far more easier to do some cheese in very early game. But that's another topic and I would like to start another thread to elaborate it if it's needed. (however the cheese thing is a bit complex for explaining, listing and analyzing. I was a bit lazy now so maybe I prefer to leave the topic to other players.)

[Theukon-dos]

1 hour ago, JazzyGames said:

They’re not pro players if they don’t make everything they do look easy!

Good points have been made here thus far, and I confess I am mostly interested in the more fundamental question: Is a pure ranged build in DST interesting and fun?

When you look at what a Fuelweaver fight can be with Walter I’d say the answer is that it definitely can be. Dodging with umbral dash while taking out unseen hands with secondary aiming, dispatching of woven shadows with AoE rounds…hands down one of the most fun FW fights I’ve experienced in a while.

The reason that fight works so well is that FW has numerous anti-range measures. But then you look at fights like Antlion, Klaus, Bearger, Moose, Clops, Armored Bearger, and Dfly, you come to realize that a sizeable chunk of enemies in DST have practically no anti-ranged measures and if slowed down with ichor rounds will basically sit there and wait to be killed. Not the most engaging gameplay experience for me.

Will nerfing Walter’s slowdown rounds fix this problem? Absolutely not. Maxwell will still have shadow prison, Winona will still have catapults, Wolfgang will still have marble suits and Wurt will still have merms. I don’t personally feel threatened by the presence of these methods but I do tend to avoid them for reasons of personal enjoyment, although I will always be a faithful Wurt stan!

So for these reasons I don’t think that nerfing slowing ammo needs to happen but at the same time I am glad that Walter is bringing sunlight to this glaring issue of boss vulnerability, and I think Klei will be much more mindful of adding anti-range counters to future bosses.

See, the thing I don't get about the "Walter's slingshot is boring" argument is that everything people say about it either also applies to kiting or can be expressed in a different way. Why are we talking about bosses having a ranged vulnerability when all the ones Walter can camp out can also be beaten by equipping a set of marble armor and taking a nap while drooling on the attack button? Sure, that takes a bit more investment. But it's still just holding down the attack button.

 

If anything, I find that Walter's ranged combat is some of the most interesting simply by virture of being different on a fundemental level. Oh sure, Klei's been giving everyone and their mother special abilities out the wazoo. But all those don't change how you have to grab a hambat and smack the ankles of whatever you're fighting between unleashing them all. The slingshot may not be an improvement, but you can't deny that it doesn't make Walter the single most unique character when it comes to fighting that DST has.

 

That said, as far as ranged combat goes, I do still prefer Uncompromising Mode's Wixie. She takes Walter's slingshot and cranks it up to 11 with far more ammo variety, slingshot variants, and a downside that makes her one of the most ride-or-die characters you can play with in the game. Though Walter's post-skill tree slingshot does make for a good middle ground.

[JazzyGames]

Sure thing, though I will say Walter does have a slight edge against bosses like Dfly and mutant bosses that are slightly more resistant to facetanking when you consider planar damage, adversary mobbing, and fire damage. But the point stands - and actually reinforces my main issue - that Walter’s kit doesn’t really introduce anything new in terms of crippling boss vulnerabilities. More ranged resistance won’t completely solve that issue but it will help with making those fights more dynamic in situations with a pure range character.

At the end of the day, more dynamic boss fights are preferable to character nerfs.

[rain grass]

Why do you want to weaken Walter so much? Then do you want to weaken the advantages of other characters?

[Steorra]

7 minutes ago, rain grass said:

Why do you want to weaken Walter so much? Then do you want to weaken the advantages of other characters?

I have similar opinions to nerf Maxwell's Shadow Prison tbh.

 

[Gashzer]

Maxwell hasn't received his skilltree yet. Current beta Walter could be underpowered by the time all skilltrees have been released.

[IAmAFurrz]

the whole slow ability shows klei really didnt give any effort to make the slingshot good with any interest of making him a healthily balanced character... shadow woby would have made for an awesome dodge ability, and slingshot couldve been made so its great upclose (smthn like a shotgun) and such but no, its been 3 months, i and many other ppl on forums have made suggestions for him to be more healthy for the game but nope.... i swear for this reason alone i will forever never ever touch this stupid character

2 hours ago, Gashzer said:

Maxwell hasn't received his skilltree yet. Current beta Walter could be underpowered by the time all skilltrees have been released.

definitely not, being able to ignore boss attacks as a whole and not even allow them to be near enough to initiate attacks from slingshot range is gonna be fun. klei will either have to design specific attacks for this kind of cowardice which means so much more work, or they just wont and just make him have shadow prison 2 

[Mr. Furman]

13 minutes ago, IAmAFurrz said:

i swear for this reason alone i will forever never ever touch this stupid character

It is your business to consider a char boring or such, but calling ranged combat with slows or shadow prison "cowardice" is too big of a stretch.

For gods sake let people have fun in the game, as long as they are not hurting others, even if they look ridiculous to you.

[Steorra]

3 hours ago, Mr. Furman said:

are not hurting others,

Sorry? The boring playstyle hurting my enjoyment. Just like someone said "the invisible tanky abby is broken our enjoyment of a balance gameplay." before.

 

[Mr. Furman]

1 hour ago, Steorra said:

Sorry? The boring playstyle hurting my enjoyment. Just like someone said "the invisible tanky abby is broken our enjoyment of a balance gameplay." before.

 

So this is really your purpose, you are using this on ALL walter players because some random person said sth about "abby broken op".

you are not changing their minds by targeting walter using the same tactic. I personally has never trash talked about wendy and catching us walter players in the crossfire is not going to make wendy better.

[kroban]

I dont think that purple rounds are gamebreaking, you need to keep 3 stacks constantly if you want the effect, otherwise its barely a slow, and even with the max amount of slow some bosses still move pretty fast , like Bee Queen and Dragonfly.

I agree that icker rounds are OP, I do hate those rounds and it also made me hate shadow alignment as a whole, Ironically these icker rounds made me appreciate lunar side more. I think that these rounds should get nerfed, but not completely erased.

That said, my man why all of a sudden you are worried about Walter? I have seen your comments all troughout this beta and 99% of the time you were just talking about Wendy, but she doesnt show up in 2 weekly updates (after having like 6 updates dedicated to her) and all of a sudden you start making posts of "nerf Walter"?

[SilverSpoon]

1 minute ago, Mr. Furman said:

So this is really your purpose, you are using this on ALL walter players because some random person said sth about "abby broken op".

I remember that is not "some random person", ton of people on the forums were asking for Nerf Wendy. and actually Wendy was repeatedly nerfed.

Currently, to request to Nerf Walter is still not out of line with the logic and politeness of voice of request Nerf Wendy at the time. It happened and was an accepted on the forum, so there is no bad thing.

 

[SilverSpoon]

5 minutes ago, kroban said:

That said, my man why all of a sudden you are worried about Walter? I have seen your comments all troughout this beta and 99% of the time you were just talking about Wendy, but she doesnt show up in 2 weekly updates (after having like 6 updates dedicated to her) and all of a sudden you start making posts of "nerf Walter"?

I think it's because Walter became too strong in recent update.

Also, Steorra wasn't talking about Wendy 99% of the time. they was also involved in other characters' stories, and the time spent on Wendy was at most 70%.

[Steorra]

13 minutes ago, Mr. Furman said:

So this is really your purpose, you are using this on ALL walter players because some random person said sth about "abby broken op".

you are not changing their minds by targeting walter using the same tactic. I personally has never trash talked about wendy and catching us walter players in the crossfire is not going to make wendy better.

No. I honestly to say I care no Wendy now. Even I would think to nerf Wendy by some reason is "reasonable and logical".

5 minutes ago, kroban said:

That said, my man why all of a sudden you are worried about Walter?

Since Walter is fun enough to making me start play as this character. Then I have my personal opinions about this character. I want to express them.

[Mr. Furman]

2 minutes ago, Yaorin yon said:

I want to seriously discuss this.

I think this friend is merely recounting what some “real villains” have done before, in the form of a “villain” themselves. The real villains have done so much of this, and the community has hardly resisted at all. As a victim, aside from quietly suffering in a corner, there is hardly any other way to bring these misdeeds to light. If the forum members merely dislike what this friend has done and do not wish to trace back to the real villains or make amends for the consequences of those past misdeeds, then it proves that this forum is nothing but a corrupt place with double standards.

Well said, my friend. Apparently you are more honest than OP on this one, you have my respect.

Though, I would prefer you let us know the "real villian"'s deeds rather than hurting more innocent people.

[Steorra]

3 minutes ago, Yaorin yon said:

I want to seriously discuss this.

I think this friend is merely recounting what some “real villains” have done before, in the form of a “villain” themselves. The real villains have done so much of this, and the community has hardly resisted at all. As a victim, aside from quietly suffering in a corner, there is hardly any other way to bring these misdeeds to light. If the forum members merely dislike what this friend has done and do not wish to trace back to the real villains or make amends for the consequences of those past misdeeds, then it proves that this forum is nothing but a corrupt place with double standards.

No, not exactly. I just started to aware that I cannot hold something strong but fun fast for my personal interest. But I guess I could hold my balance ideas fast at least, according to the previous things.

[Mr. Furman]

Because I have never been a part of all the wendy drama, and apparently this type of blanket bombardment is unfair for my character as well.

My purpose is never to create more double standards.

[Steorra]

1 minute ago, Mr. Furman said:

Though, I would prefer you let us know the "real villian"'s deeds rather than hurting more innocent people.

I have no idea why balance discussion would hurt innocent people.

The discussion should be free. The balance change is decided by Klei. If you insist to say the "hurting", it's Klei's decision hurting some of you by Klei's own opinion. Why you blame other normal players? 

I have my right to express my personal idea in a polite way. 

1 minute ago, Mr. Furman said:

Because I have never been a part of all the wendy drama, and apparently this type of blanket bombardment is unfair for my character as well.

My purpose is never to create more double standards.

Ah. Double standards. What an old but strange word.

I don't want to be double standards. I have to admit that I've just clarified "early cheap Bee Queen farming is an OP privilege of Wendy." In our discord beta channel.

 

Anyway. I guess the topic here we talking was gone a bit far off topic. 

[Mysterious box]

29 minutes ago, Mr. Furman said:

So this is really your purpose, you are using this on ALL walter players because some random person said sth about "abby broken op".

you are not changing their minds by targeting walter using the same tactic. I personally has never trash talked about wendy and catching us walter players in the crossfire is not going to make wendy better.

It's always about Wendy sure there are some people having legitimate discussions but the source of nerf posts made by Wendy enthusiasts tends to stem from the same point every time.

That aside at the end of the day removing ranged combat options from Walter isn't really going to fix the core issue cropping up in dst the game needs to go through a change to better fit ranged combat options because Walter isn't the only source of them as we have various characters who have ranged options now as well as cheap end game ranged weapons.

5 hours ago, IAmAFurrz said:

the whole slow ability shows klei really didnt give any effort to make the slingshot good with any interest of making him a healthily balanced character... shadow woby would have made for an awesome dodge ability, and slingshot couldve been made so its great upclose (smthn like a shotgun) and such but no, its been 3 months, i and many other ppl on forums have made suggestions for him to be more healthy for the game but nope.... i swear for this reason alone i will forever never ever touch this stupid character

definitely not, being able to ignore boss attacks as a whole and not even allow them to be near enough to initiate attacks from slingshot range is gonna be fun. klei will either have to design specific attacks for this kind of cowardice which means so much more work, or they just wont and just make him have shadow prison 2 

At some point you just need to let it go and accept you don't like the character and probably never will.

[Steorra]

I personally think some people here has no reason to pretend "innocent" in the whole argument. Once you did similar thing before, what makes you have the right to blame others who doing same thing just like what you did?

 

[kroban]

36 minutes ago, Steorra said:

Since Walter is fun enough to making me start play as this character. Then I have my personal opinions about this character. I want to express them.

Well fair enough, I apologize