The stackable slowing effect erode Walter's identify and creating a Maxwell II.

[Steorra]

We do knew that Walter's main downside is his sanity loss when get hitted. But now with the high speed Woby, Shadow Dashing, and especially the stackable slowing effect in early game, Walter's main downside is already been completely fixed.

We all knew why Maxwell is imbalance after the refreshment - His only downside is the lowest HP, but once you have Shadow Prison to disable every enemies, what the meaning of your HP bar? Main downside fixing + enemy disabling has made such completely imbalance character. I have no idea why everyone just keep ignoring the same thing when it happened to Walter.

I was always said that the main problem of Maxwell is only his Shadow Prison. Since this ability simply disabled every enemies and making the downside of Maxwell become meaningless. Now the same thing happened to Walter - the stackable slowing effect helps a lot to disable the enemy and to make the main downside of Walter being ignorable.

Yes, I knew the slowing effect in early game is still not enough to completely disabled some bosses. But the cheapest high speed beefalo with the cheapest Wortox/Wanda's teleport I.frame at day 0 were helped a lot for fixing Walter's downside. The combo of the slowing + high speed + dashing with I.frame is making Walter become just another Maxwell. I can never imagine a character could have so many privileges from his skill tree to helping him ignoring his downside. This is eroding the main identity of Walter.

 

My suggestions for fixing this problem is simple. The problem mainly lies behind the strong & cheap slowing effect. Woby's high speed is Okay if Walter's slowing effect is not stronger as what we have now. So just nerf Walter's slowing effect would simply solving this problem. And other thing could just be untouched and they would be fine.

Though, Woby's Shadow Dashing could be another debatable thing. But in my opinion, it's not a balance issue once we fix Walter's slowing effect. The Shadow Dashing was just eroding the identity of Wortox. But this could be another topic.

 

[Dyzrespect]

Wilson: Marble suit
Willow: Bernie + Lunar Capstone Spell

Wolfgang: Marble suit + 2x faster boss death

Wendy: Abigail AOE Stunlock + Beefalo

WX-78: Bramble Husk + Electric Recoil

Wickerbottom: 50000 Tentacles

Woodie: Eat 3 Monster meat
Wes: Beefalo

Maxwell: Shadow Prison
Wigfrid: Sit there and sing
Webber: 50000 spiders

Winona: Sit there and sleep
Warly: Wilson but a nicer voice
Wortox: Dodge every attack with soul hop
Wormwood: Bramble Husk + Blooming + Poop
Wurt: 50000 merms
Wanda: backstep and/or shadow armor

Walter: icker rounds, walls, and/or slowdown/honey rounds

Can you honestly say Walter is a standout on this list of ways to nullify damage/boss mechanics?

[Chewabacca]

I don't think it's entirely fair to say that any of these characters are completely disabling the boss with minimal set-up cost, but neither do I think that Walter's slows (seriously, Klei, why did you give us 2 more ammo types that also slow down enemies when you named the 1st one "slow-down rounds", it's annoying to refer to them as a collective) should be completely ineffective. Just decrease how much they stack by a bit and give us better things to spend the purple gems and icker on, like how honey already has to compete, and then we're good.

[Catuna_]

15 minutes ago, Steorra said:

the stackable slowing effect in early game

how are you stacking slows early game ...?

16 minutes ago, Steorra said:

Yes, I knew the slowing effect in early game is still not enough to completely disabled some bosses. But the cheapest high speed beefalo with the cheapest Wortox/Wanda's teleport I.frame at day 0 were helped a lot for fixing Walter's downside.

you're overestimating shadow woby really really hard... it's just like pre-Wickerbottom refresh wortox it's nothing crazy. It's annoyingly expensive to use repeatedly (as in high upkeep), and it's just not as good as lunar woby's 14 speed... "at day 0" really just feels like you're being dishonest by using extreme exaggerations to make your point seem better. Woby is also not "the cheapest beefalo" as beefalo themselves require way less resources in the long run.

I get advocating for removing slow stacking in favor for a more interactive experience and I honestly personally don't care about the mechanic but the way these posts are structured really just makes me feel like you people are arguing in bad faith just to get the character nerfed. I don't really feel like these posts are trying to add to the character or enhance their gameplay in any way.

[Steorra]

1 minute ago, Dyzrespect said:

Can you honestly say Walter is a standout on this list of ways to nullify damage/boss mechanics?

Yes. Since we already have many discussions about "how imbalance Maxwell is after the refreshment". I guess this was a consensus to some extent?

I have no interest to comparing the enemy disabling privilege to other characters. Since they are different. I may say Walter is already overpower as same as Wurt, but I won't give any comparison to them since follower character is hard to balance. That's the follower feature thing. Walter is different here as well.

The argument I gave here is about the enemy disabling, and also about the "main downside fixing". We DO had many arguments during this beta to prove that why "downside fixing" is playing a bad role which eroding the character's identify right? So I won't give too many elaboration about this aspect. But about the enemy disabling, I already proved why it is unacceptable for the balance's sake.

I'd like to say more though. The enemy disabling is not only imbalance, but it's also making the design of most enemy being completely meaningless. They are punching bag once you disabled them by slowing and kiting. Devs' efforts for those enemy mobs design become meaningless in this way.

[Mr. Furman]

OP I am really, really confused why you are so deadset against other character's newfound strength. 

Please stop. It is honestly exhausting to watch.

[Steorra]

3 minutes ago, Chewabacca said:

neither do I think that Walter's slows  should be completely ineffective.

Agreed. It need not to be completely remove but just some adjustments.

2 minutes ago, Catuna_ said:

how are you stacking slows early game ...?

I don't think to done a ruin rush in day 10 would be a tough mission for current Walter after his tree's rework.

3 minutes ago, Catuna_ said:

you're overestimating shadow woby really really hard

No? I was said that Shadow Woby could be fine once the stackable slowing effect get suitable fix. I personally have no balance opinion to Woby since I think all problem lies behind the slowing effect. Please don't put words into my mouth.

[Dyzrespect]

5 minutes ago, Steorra said:

The argument I gave here is about the enemy disabling, and also about the "main downside fixing". We DO had many arguments during this beta to prove that why "downside fixing" is playing a bad role which eroding the character's identify right? So I won't give too many elaboration about this aspect. But about the enemy disabling, I already proved why it is unacceptable for the balance's sake.

I'd like to say more though. The enemy disabling is not only imbalance, but it's also making the design of most enemy being completely meaningless. They are punching bag once you disabled them by slowing and kiting. Devs' efforts for those enemy mobs design become meaningless in this way.

Are you implying that Walter should be taking hits to the face in order to not "fix his main downside"? Is it not the entire design of his downside that encourages him to use his slingshot and not take damage in the first place?

Having a Wigfrid sit there and facetank the boss makes EVERY boss a punching bag, not just ones susceptible to slow down rounds. So I don't think you can really argue that slowdown rounds are any different than tanking, just with different costs..

There was also no fire burning for the past 5 years about slowdown rounds being game breaking, despite purple gems burning holes in people's chests for the entire time, so why is it just now an issue if it's on par with Shadow Prison (another thing rarely seen).

[Catuna_]

4 minutes ago, Steorra said:

No? I was said that Shadow Woby could be fine once the stackable slowing effect get suitable fix. I personally have no balance opinion to Woby since I think all problem lies behind the slowing effect. Please don't put words into my mouth.

"But the cheapest high speed beefalo with the cheapest Wortox/Wanda's teleport I.frame at day 0 were helped a lot for fixing Walter's downside."

[Steorra]

3 minutes ago, Mr. Furman said:

OP I am really, really confused why you are so deadset against other character's newfound strength. 

I just did same thing what other people did during this beta. Why I could not express my balance opinions but others can? I said Wortox's Lunar Swindle is imbalance like Bone Armor and boring, it need rework. Which was an old argument of "Bone Armor is OP" happened in general discussion. I said soul jar is downside fixing for Wortox just like what others said during the beta. I focusing on Walter's stackable slowing effect continuously since I do think it erode the main enjoyment of the battle of DST. 

I have no idea what you are talking tbh.

[Steorra]

13 minutes ago, Dyzrespect said:

Are you implying that Walter should be taking hits to the face in order to not "fix his main downside"?

Not exactly. Walter should be taking hits to the face if you have not enough skill level. I knew someone is hating the comparison towards Wendy. But this is just a similar thing - We do knew that "Abby should not being brainrotly invisible" right? I won't repeat the reason of this argument since it already happened too much during this beta. But it is just work for Walter as well - Walter should not being such easy to avoid his main downside punishment.

13 minutes ago, Dyzrespect said:

Having a Wigfrid sit there and facetank the boss makes EVERY boss a punching bag, not just ones susceptible to slow down rounds. So I don't think you can really argue that slowdown rounds are any different than tanking, just with different costs..

The problem would goes deeper if you want to talk about this. It's about the basic interaction logic of boss fight design in DST. Wigfrid and Marble Suit is okay in this aspect since they still follow the basic interact logic of boss fight. But range weapons are not. It's a generally problem of all range weapon. But it's become completely broken once a range weapon has ability to slowing the target a lot and having extremely high flexibility at the same time.

[Debruh]

4 minutes ago, Steorra said:

problem would goes deeper if you want to talk about this. It's about the basic interaction logic of boss fight design in DST. Wigfrid and Marble Suit is okay in this aspect since they still follow the basic interact logic of boss fight. But range weapons are not. It's a generally problem of all range weapon. But it's become completely broken once a range weapon has ability to slowing the target a lot and having extremely high flexibility at the same time.

Why is wasting armor as Wigfrid, any different than wasting pellets as Walter?

[Steorra]

8 minutes ago, salty_cookie said:

Waiter, waiter! Return this to the chef, this bait is horrible. I want a refund.

We have no waiter here but only Walter sadly.

It's quite confusing that many of you keep saying "it's a bait" to a specific opinion which the opinion is just as same as what happened frequently before. 

3 minutes ago, Debruh said:

Why is wasting armor as Wigfrid, any different than wasting pellets as Walter?

A very simple answer is - Wigfrid did have to interact with the special effect from enemy's melee attack i.e. knockback, frozen, ignition.

Walter need not to worry about any specific effect from enemy's melee attack with current slowing efficiency. Yes he did has to interact with the range special effect. But almost 70% special effect in DST is melee.

[_mylilsunshine_]

22 minutes ago, Catuna_ said:

I get advocating for removing slow stacking in favor for a more interactive experience and I honestly personally don't care about the mechanic but the way these posts are structured really just makes me feel like you people are arguing in bad faith just to get the character nerfed. I don't really feel like these posts are trying to add to the character or enhance their gameplay in any way.

i've tried so, so hard to not be overtly cynical and give people the benefit of the doubt. i've tried to look past the bad faith argument to contribute something positive for walter's development, but it's just too difficult.

i get that you want this and that for your character, but why did you have to bring walter into the crossfire? why bring down other people's favourite to lift up yours?

Quote

You do knew that someone here did believe that the "balance" talking is their own privilege right? When your balance opinions is unwelcomed to them, they just say "bad faith" to you.

It's very funny to see someone say "bad faith" to a thing which they continuously doing by theirselves.

So now, we have Wurt II (or Maxwell II) who start the game with a free beefalo and free gloomerang in day 0 (not really free but almost nearly) and get his Shadow Prison update by costing gems... But some "balancer" just keeping ignoring the balance broken happened to this character lol.

when you have this as your signature, you just look bitter and petty. reported.

[Chewabacca]

3 minutes ago, Steorra said:

Agreed. It need not to be completely remove but just some adjustments.

I don't think to done a ruin rush in day 10 would be a tough mission for current Walter after his tree's rework.

No? I was said that Shadow Woby could be fine once the stackable slowing effect get suitable fix. I personally have no balance opinion to Woby since I think all problem lies behind the slowing effect. Please don't put words into my mouth.

A ruins rush at day 10 means that the slingshot is borderline useless because you don't get access to the grip that makes the slingshot okay to use in combat until around day ~14, which is around when you'll get the first goop from Glommer. Before then the only slingshot speed upgrade you have access to is one that's only useful if you're just sitting in place shooting, which you cannot do in the ruins. This means that any Walter rushing before then will have to be leaning on melee, which has increased risks for him. I'm not saying it's impossible because the people who play this game are crazy, but it's certainly tougher than you seem to think. The ammo cost is also nothing to sneeze at, if for some reason you want to use the awful version of the slingshot. Sure, later on Walter will be able to amass huge amounts of ammo because of marble trees and the abundance of thulecite fragments, but early on marble is limited and it takes a full 10 days for marble trees to grow. Combine that with the fact that Walter riding Woby is going to want a marble suit, and the cost starts skyrocketing.

[Debruh]

3 minutes ago, Steorra said:

very simple answer is - Wigfrid did have to interact with the special effect from enemy's melee attack i.e. knockback, frozen, ignition.

Walter need not to worry about any specific effect from enemy's melee attack with current slowing efficiency

Marble armor pretty much fully negates knockback by the way.

There aren't many bosses that can freeze or ignite you. Probably less than the ones affected by Walter's slow stacking.

[Steorra]

19 minutes ago, Catuna_ said:

"But the cheapest high speed beefalo with the cheapest Wortox/Wanda's teleport I.frame at day 0 were helped a lot for fixing Walter's downside."

Is there's something wrong? I knew the I.frame could be debatable. But the point of teleport itself is a simple truth. Same for the high speed beefalo.

To collect 3 monster meet is not such a hard mission even for melee Walter I have to say.

3 minutes ago, _mylilsunshine_ said:

i've tried so, so hard to not be overtly cynical and give people the benefit of the doubt. i've tried to look past the bad faith argument to contribute something positive for walter's development, but it's just too difficult.

i get that you want this and that for your character, but why did you have to bring walter into the crossfire? why bring down other people's favourite to lift up yours?

when you have this as your signature, you just look bitter and petty. reported.

Your reply was just a personally thing and randomly accusation. This topic is aiming to talk about the balance, not aiming to start a war in the forum. Don't start the war by yours bias, sincerely.

[Walrusst]

i mean if you are going to complain about this being so cheap the other day i proposed a positive solution to the issue:

Make it so its at least expensive way to do this is still relatively costly by replacing a commonly used puzzle piece of the problem with something that encourages walter to play with unusual mechanics instead.
Since you know, single slows aren't so problematic, and not having two slows pre-rifts pushes the problem off quite a ways. And. When rifts are relevant people are going to have a lot more problems to deal with so honestly its not a bad approach for now.

[Mr. Furman]

24 minutes ago, Steorra said:

I don't think to done a ruin rush in day 10 would be a tough mission for current Walter after his tree's rework.

This is wrong. Jesus, have you ever done a player test yourself? You can't do this with the skill tree and the slingshot on day 10. 

 

20 minutes ago, Steorra said:

I just did same thing what other people did during this beta. Why I could not express my balance opinions but others can?

Okay, so by "expressing your opinions" you are referring to making things up without testing yourself and use every means to get Wortox and Walter nerfed? 

If this is not a character you enjoy playing, then move on. 

[Debruh]

1 minute ago, Steorra said:

Is there's something wrong? I knew the I.frame could be debatable. But the point of teleport itself is a simple truth. Same for the high speed beefalo.

To collect 3 monster meet is not such a hard mission even for melee Walter I have to say.

'Cheapest' tp is hilarious. 3 monster meat is cheap yes. But you're risking getting hit and being in an animation where woby knocks you off 

Not only that but if somehow you get lucky enough to get 3 monster meat from the first 3 spider kills. Even then, Wortox has got 3 souls from the same spiders. And 6 tps if not 9 with the second soul echo skill 

Wanda has the alarming clock. And once you get the backstep watch it's free forever.

[Steorra]

3 minutes ago, Debruh said:

Marble armor pretty much fully negates knockback by the way.

You are right for most scenarios. But have you considering the damage of enemy's melee attack? Walter also ignored it by his range attack.

1 minute ago, Mr. Furman said:

This is wrong. Jesus, have you ever done a player test yourself? You can't do this with the skill tree and the slingshot on day 10. 

https://b23.tv/7zJGZS1

Check the video.

[Debruh]

Just now, Steorra said:

You are right for most scenarios. But have you considering the damage of enemy's melee attack? Walter also ignored it by his range attack.

And Wigfrid ignores it with marble armor's 95% protection and her natural life steal. Use her song, inf uses by the way, and she's not getting killed anytime soon.

Hell, throw in a thulecite crown too. Now you get occasionally get a shield too, which uses your sanity, once again not a problem for Wig.

[Dyzrespect]

16 minutes ago, Steorra said:

The problem would goes deeper if you want to talk about this. It's about the basic interaction logic of boss fight design in DST. Wigfrid and Marble Suit is okay in this aspect since they still follow the basic interact logic of boss fight. But range weapons are not. It's a generally problem of all range weapon. But it's become completely broken once a range weapon has ability to slowing the target a lot and having extremely high flexibility at the same time.

lets go boss by boss, marble suit : slowdown round

Ancient Guardian - Inefficient : Inefficient
Antlion - Incredible : Useless

Bearger - Inefficient : Effective

Bee Queen - Effective : Inefficient

Celestial Champion - Inefficient : Ineffective
Crab King - Effective : Useless

Crystal Bearger - Inefficient : Effective

Crystal Deerclops - Inefficient : Useless
Deerclops - Effective : Effective

Dragonfly - Effective : Effective

Eye of Terror - Effective : Effective

Frostjaw - Effective : Useless

Klaus - Inefficient : Useless (use boat or kite without slowdown)

Malbatross - Effective : Useless/Ineffiecint

Moose - Effective : Effective

NWP - Inefficient : Effective
Possessed Varg - Death sentence : Inefficient

AFW - Effective : Useless

Scrappy - Effective : Effective (but just kite normally)
Shadow Pieces - Inefficient : Useless

Spider Queen - Effective : Useless
Treeguard - No.

Toadstool - Useless : Useless

Varg - Effective : Inefficient
Giant Depths Worm: Extremely Effective (in a team) : Useless

So there we go, we have only three situations where slowdown rounds are more effective than just facetanking, two of them being the same boss. Feel free to debate any of my rankings.

 

[Steorra]

2 minutes ago, Mr. Furman said:

without testing

No? I do tested his current combat abilities to most bosses. It's really easy. Just like most bosses for Maxwell.

Especially I have to say there's a huge cheese privilege of Walter.

2 minutes ago, Debruh said:

And Wigfrid ignores it with marble armor's 95% protection and her natural life steal. Use her song, inf uses by the way, and she's not getting killed anytime soon.

I guess that's why Wigfrid got a most unwelcomed skill tree?

Skill tree should help to fix problems but not to create new problems of balance.

7 minutes ago, Walrusst said:

i mean if you are going to complain about this being so cheap the other day i proposed a positive solution to the issue:

I must missed something, would you mind to share your idea details here for me?

 

9 minutes ago, Walrusst said:

Since you know, single slows aren't so problematic,

Yes, I do agree with this point.

 

[Steorra]

16 minutes ago, Chewabacca said:

A ruins rush at day 10 means that the slingshot is borderline useless

https://b23.tv/7zJGZS1

I guess you need this as well. I'm sorry that I was missed your replies here.