Leaving the game for the best

[RozeMeteor]

59 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

I guess, but I feel like, if you're not willing to show even the slightest degree of restraint in an effort to enjoy a game more, you must not be that attached to it anyway. 

I guess it's more like saying that it's everthing okay when really isn't. You can play things on your way to have fun but in the end you know where things are going, if the op ain't happy with the direction of the game just deny how they feel about it won't gonna make it better and that's alright. i feel like this game playerbase is conflicted, nobody wants their favourite character to be bad, but we are witnessing players wanting almost invencibility for the the sake of it, this can change the course of the game in irreversible ways impacting everyone, so just denying it won't gonna make it disapear. Everyone got their idea of fun too making this all the way more complicated.. Ughh dude, why people gotta be so hard to understand. 

[DegenerateFurry]

10 minutes ago, RozeMeteor said:

I guess it's more like saying that it's everthing okay when really isn't. You can play things on your way to have fun but in the end you know where things are going, if the op ain't happy with the direction of the game just deny how they feel about it won't gonna make it better and that's alright. i feel like this game playerbase is conflicted, nobody wants their favourite character to be bad, but we are witnessing players wanting almost invencibility for the the sake of it, this can change the course of the game in irreversible ways impacting everyone, so just denying it won't gonna make it disapear. Everyone got their idea of fun too making this all the way more complicated.. Ughh dude, why people gotta be so hard to understand. 

I guess so, although there's also people who're exaggerating how strong things are or downplaying how strong other things are, which makes it even more complicated. 

[Mike23Ua]

1 hour ago, DegenerateFurry said:

I guess, but I feel like, if you're not willing to show even the slightest degree of restraint in an effort to enjoy a game more, you must not be that attached to it anyway. 

You are aware that the reason why if you select hardcore settings on a game like Lego Fortnite or Minecraft it locks you out of being able to edit those settings right?

Its because it should not be UP TO the player to “Handicap” their own gameplay.

If you select “Survival” and you then DIE you shouldn’t be allowed to roll the server back before the timer to delete your world expires, it shouldn’t even be an option available to you.

But here we are discussing players having to restrain themselves from using X or doing Y because the game itself doesn’t give nearly enough options to force those restraints.

instead of telling people not to invest skill points in OP skill tree there should be dedicated modes that force your inability to spec points.

Simple… and it would be far more valuable of Klei’s time to do than ANY of the content updates they put out this year (yeah I said what I said.. I’m kinda annoyed by small updates and over focus on OP skill trees that get reworked, Re reworked then Rererereworked)

[DegenerateFurry]

9 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

You are aware that the reason why if you select hardcore settings on a game like Lego Fortnite or Minecraft it locks you out of being able to edit those settings right?

Its because it should not be UP TO the player to “Handicap” their own gameplay.

If you select “Survival” and you then DIE you shouldn’t be allowed to roll the server back before the timer to delete your world expires, it shouldn’t even be an option available to you.

But here we are discussing players having to restrain themselves from using X or doing Y because the game itself doesn’t give nearly enough options to force those restraints.

instead of telling people not to invest skill points in OP skill tree there should be dedicated modes that force your inability to spec points.

Simple… and it would be far more valuable of Klei’s time to do than ANY of the content updates they put out this year (yeah I said what I said.. I’m kinda annoyed by small updates and over focus on OP skill trees that get reworked, Re reworked then Rererereworked)

No, people play hardcore mode in Minecraft because they want to have serious stakes to dying (losing their world). Same for Ultra Nightmare in DOOM.

At least, that's the main reason I know of. 

[Evelo]

1 hour ago, DegenerateFurry said:

You know the skill trees are optional, right?

except they arent. There is no toggle to turn them off. They are always present. Significant developer time is spent making them. Something which affects everyone as players. You really dislike Wortox, Walter, and Wendy? Congratz this update gives you literally nothing of value. Oh you like wendy but the developer time spent in a way that actively hinders your enjoyment of the game. Cool, you'll never get what you truly wanted then. That negative tinge in the back of your mind will eat away at you.

Again, and again, and again, and again, and again, I say the "Don't like it don't use it" argument is bad and does not help anyone, only hinders or even reinforces their thought process. Please avoid using this argument again in the future.

[Lardee]

I agree.

Ever since Maxwell could just turn off bosses with Shadow Prison and chill out while his Duelists kill everything, I think "cheap" is the best word I can use to describe the game's trend.

Even characters like Woodie who can be really fun makes everything that's not a raid boss a "hold F to win" simulator. 

Wurt makes every boss fight boil down to "left click and you win"

Winona is not as bad, but her optimal playstyle is to kick back and spam the controller clicks instead of actually fight the enemy.

Now we have Walter who's gameplay is just "hold F and walk away when the enemy gets near".

Abigail is basically invincible considering she takes half damage from her one counter and you can get 8-10 spectral cure alls from a single pipsook.

Even regular Wilson gameplay feels cheap considering the Reaper completely outclasses all the previous top tier melee options in both power and cost effectiveness.

I think Klei probably doesn't want people getting too invested in their game because it's not profitable. They want people to get hooked on quick success power through the game's content then move on to one of their other games like Rotwood or Oxygen and to be honest that makes a lot more sense financially.

[Mr Giggio]

17 hours ago, WANZUN said:

Players who use English。

You are just proving his point about having toxicity around and again reinforce the chinese stereotype on top of it.

[DegenerateFurry]

1 hour ago, Evelo said:

Again, and again, and again, and again, and again, I say the "Don't like it don't use it" argument is bad and does not help anyone, only hinders or even reinforces their thought process. Please avoid using this argument again in the future.

You can repeat this all you want, it doesn't make it any less irrational. "Don't like it, don't use it" is a perfectly valid statement. 

[Evelo]

31 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

You can repeat this all you want, it doesn't make it any less irrational. "Don't like it, don't use it" is a perfectly valid statement. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergo_decedo

[WANZUN]

一小时前，吉吉欧先生说:

你只是在证明他关于毒性的观点，并再次强化中国人的刻板印象。

He wants to delete Abigail, doesn't he? Chinese players just want Wendy to get the updates she deserves.

[Sacco]

4 hours ago, DegenerateFurry said:

You know the skill trees are optional, right?

IT'S JUST MY OPINION BUT i think skill trees were executed poorly ans i don't like to straight up not care about one of the fundamental game mechanic.

1 hour ago, WANZUN said:

He wants to delete Abigail, doesn't he? Chinese players just want Wendy to get the updates she deserves.

Please don't start a stupid argument like this under this post... Please

[Jakepeng99]

7 hours ago, Evelo said:

except they arent. There is no toggle to turn them off. They are always present. Significant developer time is spent making them. Something which affects everyone as players. You really dislike Wortox, Walter, and Wendy? Congratz this update gives you literally nothing of value. Oh you like wendy but the developer time spent in a way that actively hinders your enjoyment of the game. Cool, you'll never get what you truly wanted then. That negative tinge in the back of your mind will eat away at you.

Again, and again, and again, and again, and again, I say the "Don't like it don't use it" argument is bad and does not help anyone, only hinders or even reinforces their thought process. Please avoid using this argument again in the future.

More a petty reason, but even if you choose to not use skilltrees, other players playing with you can.

I used to often hate when people forced me to use the flingo cheese on toadstool when i wanted to fight him legit since the cheese can be boring. Fights also become way easier with characters like Maxwell and stuff supporting you.

Fighting alone is not the answer, because fighting as a group is fun to an extent until the boss gets stunlocked from someone like Maxwell.

4 hours ago, Sacco said:

IT'S JUST MY OPINION BUT i think skill trees were executed poorly ans i don't like to straight up not care about one of the fundamental game mechanic.

I feel like they learned as they went because the earliest skilltrees, Wilson, Woodie, Wormwood, and Wolfgang have the biggest design flaws in their structure.

7 hours ago, Lardee said:

Even regular Wilson gameplay feels cheap considering the Reaper completely outclasses all the previous top tier melee options in both power and cost effectiveness.

I feel like the new riff gear's design tramples over dst's GENIUS durability system.

Every tool, weapon, and item, even grass armour you can argue, was on the same playing field, even armour like thulicite. This was because of how the durability and resources work, and how replaceable and craftable they are. Its not like bad durability systems like minecraft where it has so much durability where it is just annoying, and you spend ages powerup up an item which makes it a pain go replace. 

[00petar00]

9 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

I know it sounds silly but I always bring up the same thing if klei tomorrow added a clients side instant kill button to all versions of dst would it negatively impact the gameplay experience? I'd say probably while skill trees aren't a instant kill button the way they're going they're entirely shaping the gameplay experience and in a lot of ways it's in a negative way. Fun through just being overwhelmingly powerful is the main thing they introduced to the game and I'll be the first to say the key part is that it's fun but the game definitely feels a lot more shallow as a result.

That's just using different words to describe godmode when most people disagree with that take. Skill trees are nowhere near instant kill button or like godmode for bosses.

In the same way you bring up godmode as an option for players to use instead of klei buffing characters we can say that you can decide your own difficulty with world settings, using mods, picking a weaker character or not using the skill tree perks.

I've been playing DST since beta and I can say that players have adapted to high HP bosses and mechanics that are quite difficult for solo players as they were clearly made for multiplayer but a decent amount of players  have taken that as a challenge so they kill them solo and that is the main argument two different groups of players have on these forums.

It is in the name don't starve "together" you are not supposed to take on raid bosses solo so players need to use strategies or expensive items to compensate not having teammates like pan flute to put grumble bees to sleep or weather pains for FW.

Quite a few people brought up DS as If it was difficult when it was so much easier in everything besides death being punishing but completely ignored with effigy and there was armor stacking that already made it impossible to die. If DST had boss health similar to DS bosses or like multiplied by 2 we would never be having these discussions because no one would except DST to be that hard of a game.

Majority of the players will always be casual and klei is making good decisions to introduce more players into the game by making it easier. Very difficult games will always be niche and they can't be mainstream which is fine, I play some roguelike games and it is the reason I play them. It is never wrong for players to enjoy what they enjoy but majority will always prefer easier games.

[Mr Giggio]

6 hours ago, WANZUN said:

He wants to delete Abigail, doesn't he? Chinese players just want Wendy to get the updates she deserves.

He's saying he's leaving.

Again

Proving the point.

You guys are getting anything of what's is saying and out zero effort to figure it out before clapping back please think twice.

[WANZUN]

8分钟前，吉吉欧先生说:

他说他要走了。

又

证明这一点。

你们这些家伙什么都懂，却毫不费力地想明白，在鼓掌回应之前，请三思。

Aren't we talking about why op? The reason why he left, I did not insult him, the translator app hurt me.

[Tranoze]

All those year of developing AI, translator haven't improved anything, make players accidentally insult each other and quit the game because they cant stand the insult that badly generated through language barrier.

.

[Mysterious box]

1 hour ago, 00petar00 said:

That's just using different words to describe godmode when most people disagree with that take. Skill trees are nowhere near instant kill button or like godmode for bosses.

In the same way you bring up godmode as an option for players to use instead of klei buffing characters we can say that you can decide your own difficulty with world settings, using mods, picking a weaker character or not using the skill tree perks.

I've been playing DST since beta and I can say that players have adapted to high HP bosses and mechanics that are quite difficult for solo players as they were clearly made for multiplayer but a decent amount of players  have taken that as a challenge so they kill them solo and that is the main argument two different groups of players have on these forums.

It is in the name don't starve "together" you are not supposed to take on raid bosses solo so players need to use strategies or expensive items to compensate not having teammates like pan flute to put grumble bees to sleep or weather pains for FW.

Quite a few people brought up DS as If it was difficult when it was so much easier in everything besides death being punishing but completely ignored with effigy and there was armor stacking that already made it impossible to die. If DST had boss health similar to DS bosses or like multiplied by 2 we would never be having these discussions because no one would except DST to be that hard of a game.

Majority of the players will always be casual and klei is making good decisions to introduce more players into the game by making it easier. Very difficult games will always be niche and they can't be mainstream which is fine, I play some roguelike games and it is the reason I play them. It is never wrong for players to enjoy what they enjoy but majority will always prefer easier games.

This line of logic doesn't really work unless you apply it to everything including rifts and beyond dst is a multiplayer game so unless your playing entirely alone your experience will be affected. That aside even the pick a weaker character argument doesn't really work as if balance doesn't matter everyone is instead going to want their character of choice to be just as strong and there's no reason why they shouldn't be as if people didn't care skill trees wouldn't have ever come into existence in the first place so if we go through with things like this we'll just end up with character refresh part 3 to once again try to "fix the balance". Making the game easier isn't a bad thing either but the way they're going about it definitely isn't a way to retain newer players which is immediately making the player overwhelmingly powerful then hoping that power will lead people to explore harder content such as bosses and the like. Which in my experience seems to instead lead to people not feeling the need to do harder content since they already have the reward.

If the goal is to make the game more accessible buffing the characters is actually doing basically nothing for truly casual players as the only ones really taking advantage of those buffs are those experienced enough to put them to use. For example take Wendy's player tag buff how many casual players are finding the lunar island? If the goal is really to help them things like nerfing bosses, simplifying more complex mechanics like farming, reducing resource grind, giving more player guidance, introducing a creative mode, adding hp scaling, and reward scaling  would be what you do to help them regardless of how much it'd piss off long time players.

[Tranoze]

2 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

For example take Wendy's player tag buff how many casual players are finding the lunar island?

They dont have to, they can just ask more experience player to get it for them. 
What casual player want is for experience players to call for fight when they ready so they can fight together. They want to experiences new experiences. More farming at base only work if they can use the farm resources they make in a while to use it on something.

[Mysterious box]

2 minutes ago, Tranoze said:

They dont have to, they can just ask more experience player to get it for them. 
What casual player want is for experience players to call for fight when they ready so they can fight together. They want to experiences new experiences. More farming at base only work if they can use the farm resources they make in a while to use it on something.

If they have a more experienced player with them doesn't that defeat the purpose of them needing an outside system to help them get further in the game?

To be more clear I thought these systems were for helping casual players who didn't have access to a more experienced players?

[Uedo]

Some of y'all need a healthier approach to gaming. 

I play FF14 a lot and frequently go through periods where I just don't think I want to play it and will leave for months. It's fine. Do something else. Come back or don't. But this is your choice and your rationale, there wouldn't be a forum post if you didn't want to Devs/Team to notice your frustration - but like, sometimes things don't go the way you expect or want, you roll with it and try to fill your time with something that brings you fulfilment or satisfaction.

I truly think Klei would have received LESS backlash if they just didn't respond and didn't make any changes based on the community feedback, it'd die down and people would feel less entitlement. 

In all my years i've never seen a dev team receive so much scrutiny when they're literally involving the community in the evolution of their product. I completely get the frustrations, but at this point I feel it's not reductive to say anymore 'Make your own game', if you're just not satisfied - find something else to do, or make the product you would like the game to be. If it's so easy to do, and so easy to manage the expectations of thousands of players - you do it. 

I respect you leaving the game, but this gives me the vibe of the child screaming to their parents that they're running away and they really mean it! If you meant it, you'd have been gone by now. This post serves only to give the impression to Klei that their decisions have led to players leaving and never coming back to get them to change their development choices, it's just saber-weilding at this point.

(I think it's in the community guidelines anyways if i'm remembering right that 'goodbye forever' posts are not allowed)

[nimzowitsch10]

@DegenerateFurry

This is like there being an OP weapon that everyone is using and you're using the 3x nerfed version of that weapon. Literally noone wants to do that.

[Catuna_]

15 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

If the goal is to make the game more accessible buffing the characters is actually doing basically nothing for truly casual players as the only ones really taking advantage of those buffs are those experienced enough to put them to use.

you seem to be mistaking the terms casual and new, a casual player is not a young infant child playing DST on their nintendo DS with a broken display, it's still people that are aware of how the game works but aren't (or dont have the time to be) serious about optimization enough to want to learn more complicated strategies.
Skill trees aim to make characters stronger, in turn, characters require less and less complicated/input-heavy strategies in combat (and of course boss fights), think of a boss like Bee Queen, a boss that was previously notoriously difficult. With today's character roster, though, almost everyone has AoE and/or a way to make her incredibly easy to fight and the fight is... kind of a joke in comparison (Willow, Wolfgang, Wendy, Wickerbottom, Woodie, Maxwell, Wigfrid, Webber, Winona, Wortox, Wormwood, Wurt, Walter, Wanda all have a very good matchup against Bee Queen.)

This enables casual players who otherwise would struggle to at least squeeze through and get by in the fight without major complications, with not much input for a huge reward (think of Willow being able to kill all of Bee Queen's grumble bees with lunar flames or causing them to panic with combustion). The notion that this only benefits experienced players is absurd.

15 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

For example take Wendy's player tag buff how many casual players are finding the lunar island?

Casual players aren't necessarily unable to locate lunar, and the buff from lunar tree blossoms are quite literally geared towards casual players as experienced players never needed Abigail to become more resilient. It was Wendy's casual player base that claimed that she was incredibly weak and fragile in combat and against bosses.

 

[Tranoze]

Just now, Mysterious box said:

If they have a more experienced player with them doesn't that defeat the purpose of them needing an outside system to help them get further in the game?

They dont need them, just there always experiences player play along with unexperiences player in a multiplayer world. And if experiences player know and care about the casual (call them SIMP), they will take time to gather stuff that helpful to them.

I have seen lots of casual player play, especially casual wendy. They do really want to join fight, but they dont know how to dodge, they dont even bring healing with them, being hit by the boss twice and they out of combat. But they really wanted to help, what they do? They summon abi and send her to the boss. It aren't much, but it honest help.

That how i saw this game play out so far. Even if you hate half of the server, there always people you like that the reason keep you playing in that world. So you will do as much as you can to help them, either via giving rare resouces you got as experienced player, or press F and die brave as casual.

[Terra B Welch]

On 12/14/2024 at 8:05 AM, Sacco said:

-op post-

I must admit, I feel very similar here, I always enjoyed Warly for his downsides, so much so I made my little "budding chef" character.

I can also agree, if there's one major thing that has made me not want to return to don't starve together, it's the skill trees, planar mechanics too, but mainly skill trees, skill trees to me feels like the DST equivalent of minecraft 1.9's combat changes, and just so you know, I still can't stand the 1.9 changes to this day to the point where I always use a mod to revert it.

But I can agree, I am also not a fan of the direction the game is going and considering I've gotten myself hooked back into OSRS again for the past couple years, I have doubts I'll touch DST for the forseeable future.

[00petar00]

4 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

This line of logic doesn't really work unless you apply it to everything including rifts and beyond dst is a multiplayer game so unless your playing entirely alone your experience will be affected. That aside even the pick a weaker character argument doesn't really work as if balance doesn't matter everyone is instead going to want their character of choice to be just as strong and there's no reason why they shouldn't be as if people didn't care skill trees wouldn't have ever come into existence in the first place so if we go through with things like this we'll just end up with character refresh part 3 to once again try to "fix the balance". Making the game easier isn't a bad thing either but the way they're going about it definitely isn't a way to retain newer players which is immediately making the player overwhelmingly powerful then hoping that power will lead people to explore harder content such as bosses and the like. Which in my experience seems to instead lead to people not feeling the need to do harder content since they already have the reward.

I mostly play alone and game is more difficult for me by a wide margin compared to a group of players that melts a boss but I don't really find it fun when that happens either, there needs to be a middle ground here.

I don't understand your logic, you want the game to be more difficult but at the same time would want to have your character be as strong as others, how does this make sense? Play Wilson or Wes and if you can't do that but still advocate to make the game more difficult maybe it is you that needs to reconsider what you enjoy about DST and you may not want game to be difficult for you but for everyone for some reason.

Majority of the players like skill trees but there is a small minority that doesn't and even smaller minority advocates for their removal but the kicker is that they don't have to use them, no one is forcing your hand here. Like how you keep saying that devs should add godmode clientside or kill switch to mock players that want something to be easier, what is stopping you from not using specific items? Some people kill FW without weather pain, brightshade staff or lazy explorer. 

We currently have weak characters, some that are in the middle and powerful characters so everyone can have the experience they enjoy, DST has a ton of mods and world settings so that your game can be as difficult as you want it to be.

Game being easier from the start will actually retain players, I've had multiple IRL friends quit because they die too often, now with skill trees they can see some progression because there is no goal in DST and nothing else to guide you on what to do.

15 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

If the goal is to make the game more accessible buffing the characters is actually doing basically nothing for truly casual players as the only ones really taking advantage of those buffs are those experienced enough to put them to use. For example take Wendy's player tag buff how many casual players are finding the lunar island? If the goal is really to help them things like nerfing bosses, simplifying more complex mechanics like farming, reducing resource grind, giving more player guidance, introducing a creative mode, adding hp scaling, and reward scaling  would be what you do to help them regardless of how much it'd piss off long time players.

DST wouldn't be getting more and more popular If what you are saying is true. The difference here is that casual players can take advantage of buffs but experienced players can take them to the limit so that it looks too strong and game shouldn't be balanced around under 1% of the best players. I am a long term player from the beta and I really love the direction DST is taking, a lot of old players feel the same way as I do. I know that there are long term players that dislike these changes but game has been moving into this direction for years and they are free to adapt to it like they did when it was difficult or use the methods I mentioned to increase difficulty.

Catuna already explained it, we have just recently seen a casual player make a thread with 1000 hours playing Wendy and experiencing all of the game's content.