This feels insulting

[JustExo]

Winona's been the character I default to the most, and I was really hoping for her to get more perks this skill tree that impacted her day-to-day gameplay loop, which unfortunately we didn't get a lot of.

Now, they removed the character's best attribute, which is other characters being able to make use of her perks in a way that feels like it leaves an impact.

Locking catapults behind Winona doesn't add anything for anybody, it just forces you to have a Winona present at all times, which REALLY sucks, and makes me feel like its not even worth building catapults anymore. They're just asking for too much for a benefit thats complete reliant on you being at each station whenever you'd want to operate it.

 

It just sucks that an update that I should be looking forward to feels more like a nerf to what I like about her than anything else 

[Primalflower]

how times have changed.... I think i need to be put in a nursing home

[cybers2001]

10 minutes ago, JustExo said:

Winona's been the character I default to the most, and I was really hoping for her to get more perks this skill tree that impacted her day-to-day gameplay loop, which unfortunately we didn't get a lot of.

Same. I was really hoping to tech out my whole megabase with fun new Winona gadgets. Oh well.

[GreenBowers]

I dunno if it sucks to just, require you to play a character to use their gimmick.

I imagine this would be on the same tier if, up to this point, anyone could use abigail's flower, and it was normalized and expected of wendy players to log on, craft a flower, put it in a chest, then go swap to someone else to get the full benefits of abigail without having to play wendy. If that was normalized, I'm pretty sure people would make a lot of threads if it was ever changed. 'But using the ghost is so useful to farming mobs with aoe, them removing this is completely against the impact she has on the team. Why can't other characters use her perks, its team play.'

[cybers2001]

2 minutes ago, GreenBowers said:

I dunno if it sucks to just, require you to play a character to use their gimmick.

I imagine this would be on the same tier if, up to this point, anyone could use abigail's flower, and it was normalized and expected of wendy players to log on, craft a flower, put it in a chest, then go swap to someone else to get the full benefits of abigail without having to play wendy. If that was normalized, I'm pretty sure people would make a lot of threads if it was ever changed. 'But using the ghost is so useful to farming mobs with aoe, them removing this is completely against the impact she has on the team. Why can't other characters use her perks, its team play.'

If Abigail was normalized as a persisting NPC that roams around and can help any player, then, yeah, I could see that. Maybe I'm weird in that I like perks that provide passive utility for other players. Willow is basically a dead character to me because, despite her playstyle being fun now, I'm not going to have her replace the characters I already prefer to play, so she's just going to get sent to the attic. Wendy is already a character that only represents maybe 0.1% of my total playtime in this game, so she's basically one foot out the door. Mourning glory and sisterns make for nice base decor, though, so maybe I'll play her once in a while.

[WhackE]

the unfortunate truth is, you can never please everyone and something will always make some one upset.

[lowercase skye]

It's quite unfortunate. Klei explicitly said on stream they were trying to stop Winona from being a "swap character" and I think it's really really unfortunate and doesn't bode well for future skill trees. I worry we'll eventually have a whole roster of Wandas, where a character's gameplay only benefits themself and if you swap away/walk to a different area away from another survivor then all their unique items instantly deactivate and leave behind husks like this. It's bad for the game's health and only further incentivizes me to stick to exclusively playing the characters I'm most comfortable with... cause after all, why would I want to play through the early game and set up so much infrastructure as Winona if it's all just useless junk if I switch to someone else 300+ days in? It's Wanda, but everyone. I beg Klei to reconsider this design.

[JustExo]

9 minutes ago, GreenBowers said:

I dunno if it sucks to just, require you to play a character to use their gimmick.

The character's gimmick is to help other players and make their lives more convenient. Needing to say "no let me do it" whenever you'd need to farm something using her catapults is incredibly inconvenient to both her, AND to other characters.
Comparing that to Wendy and Abigail, Abigail is meant to be more of a protector to wendy, so it makes sense for those two to be mutually exclusive.
 

14 minutes ago, GreenBowers said:

I imagine this would be on the same tier if, up to this point, anyone could use abigail's flower, and it was normalized and expected of wendy players to log on, craft a flower, put it in a chest, then go swap to someone else to get the full benefits of abigail without having to play wendy.

The difference here is the cost of Abigail's flower vs the cost to Winona's catapults. Even just 4 catapults sets you back over a stack of rocks, which are a shareable resource that you'd need to manually farm to get, or make up for after sinking in those resources on catapults. Winona also has no way to have an easier time farming those, which sucks. 

 

15 minutes ago, GreenBowers said:

If that was normalized, I'm pretty sure people would make a lot of threads if it was ever changed. 'But using the ghost is so useful to farming mobs with aoe, them removing this is completely against the impact she has on the team. Why can't other characters use her perks, its team play.'

The difference between Wendy and Winona in this regard is that: Wendy has her own sets of buffs that she can apply to Abigail, along with having her own QoL perks that make her more unique in the average day to day, whereas Winona has the issue of: She has no perks that make her discernable from any other character aside from catapults, which means that in order for this comparison to be accurate, winona would need her own benefits, perks, and unique ways to interact with catapults

[Mike23Ua]

11 minutes ago, finn from human said:

It's quite unfortunate. Klei explicitly said on stream they were trying to stop Winona from being a "swap character" and I think it's really really unfortunate and doesn't bode well for future skill trees. I worry we'll eventually have a whole roster of Wandas, where a character's gameplay only benefits themself and if you swap away/walk to a different area away from another survivor then all their unique items instantly deactivate and leave behind husks like this. It's bad for the game's health and only further incentivizes me to stick to exclusively playing the characters I'm most comfortable with... cause after all, why would I want to play through the early game and set up so much infrastructure as Winona if it's all just useless junk if I switch to someone else 300+ days in? It's Wanda, but everyone. I beg Klei to reconsider this design.

Why though? You want 2.5 damage and to be able to get buff on a gym or with dumbells you switch to Wolfgang, Want to use Abigail? You play as Wendy.. even though you can craft and give flowers to everyone on the entire server… they’ll only work for Wendy players.

Want to befriend Merms? Only Wurt can do that.. (could you imagine if non-Wurts could craft the clever mask?!)

I think the change for Winona was actually inevitable… and I also think that if you seriously want to use catapults you’ll use the celestial portal to switch to her and reap those rewards (same as you’d switch to Willow to turn a base full of Bernie dolls into BERNIE!) 

Winona’s trusty Duct Tape can still be crafted in bulk and used by non-Winona’s, same as Woodies Treeguard Idol Totems.

Why must her Catapults also be useable by Wolfgang? 
 

Also her heated spotlights are now the Team Perk.. noobs freezing in Winter will be eternally grateful for this new perk.

[ShadowDuelist]

I think it's fair that you need to use certain characters to really get the most out of their benefits. Having "swap characters" just makes the whole skill tree and effort put into that character useless. Winona and Warly are probably the most notable "swap characters" in the game, and that's what is disappointing to me.

The portal should have always been a tool to avoid getting too bored of playing the same character for eternity in a specific world. Instead, due to the way it was implemented, it became an unregulated exploit of some characters' perks, favoring three or four characters that had persistent perks in which you needed to stay as such character (e.g., Wolfgang, Wendy). It also expands on the need to play with other people to get the most out of everyone's perks combined.

[GreenBowers]

Im just trying to provide an example, a hypothetical. The skill tree leans pretty much fully on her structures, so if they didn't make the structures exclusive, then the skill tree just enforces her as a swap character that everyone can just use their gimmick without even bothering to play her.

I agree that she has no perks that modify herself, and I think thats where the skilltree fumbled the bag. Personally I would cut tier 1 of the firing speed and catapult radius skills to make a new 2 skill line on the right that do not touch any structures, but modifies her hunger-speed crafting ability to make it more in depth.

Whenever she crafts something, she loses 5 hunger and can craft like crazy for 30 seconds, so It would have been cool if like, she could go into her speed overdrive mode on other activities beside crafting, like skill one - consume 5 hunger when winona does a harvest action, like picking grass, saplings, berries, ect. For the next 30 seconds, she harvests at a much faster rate, or skill two - consume 10 hunger when winona mines/chops a resource, for the next 30 seconds, mine/chop at a much faster rate. She's a hard worker after all.

[Primalflower]

Jokes aside i really do think they should revert this and reconsider. it kind of blows, they had something really good with winona getting substantially more out of it when she was around but its still something usable by other members of the team.

[Maxil20]

14 minutes ago, finn from human said:

It's quite unfortunate. Klei explicitly said on stream they were trying to stop Winona from being a "swap character" and I think it's really really unfortunate and doesn't bode well for future skill trees.

It’s so woefully ironic in the first place, because it doesn’t even stop her from being a “swap character” if your only objective is to use the catapults for AOE purposes. Instead of swapping from the character you like, making the catapults, and swapping back to the character you like, you now swap from the character you like, be Winona to use the catapults for what you wanted them for, and swap back to the character you like. It just doesn’t feel good and encourages more spammy portal shenanigans to accomplish what you were doing prior, which I already don’t like doing.

[GreenBowers]

3 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Why though? You want 2.5 damage and to be able to get buff on a gym or with dumbells you switch to Wolfgang, Want to use Abigail? You play as Wendy.. even though you can craft and give flowers to everyone on the entire server… they’ll only work for Wendy players.

Want to befriend Merms? Only Wurt can do that.. (could you imagine if non-Wurts could craft the clever mask?!)

I think the change for Winona was actually inevitable… and I also think that if you seriously want to use catapults you’ll use the celestial portal to switch to her and reap those rewards (same as you’d switch to Willow to turn a base full of Bernie dolls into BERNIE!) 

Winona’s trusty Duct Tape can still be crafted in bulk and used by non-Winona’s, same as Woodies Treeguard Idol Totems.

Why must her Catapults also be useable by Wolfgang? 
 

Also her heated spotlights are now the Team Perk.. noobs freezing in Winter will be eternally grateful for this new perk.

Mike raises a genuinely great point too. The spotlights and tape are usable by the team.

Just now, Maxil20 said:

It’s so woefully ironic in the first place, because it doesn’t even stop her from being a “swap character” if your only objective is to use the catapults for AOE purposes. Instead of swapping from the character you like, making the catapults, and swapping back to the character you like, you now swap from the character you like, be Winona to use the catapults for what you wanted them for, and swap back to the character you like. It just doesn’t feel good and encouraged more spammy portal shenanigans to accomplish what you were doing prior, which I already don’t like doing.

I mean, if you want to do 2x damage to a boss, you do the same for wolfgang. Anyone can be a swap character with this logic if you say 'Oh people want to make use of someone's very specific character ability for something, so they'll just abuse the portal to do it and then switch back.'

[JustExo]

1 minute ago, ShadowDuelist said:

I think it's fair that you need to use certain characters to really get the most out of their benefits. Having "swap characters" just makes the whole skill tree and effort put into that character useless. Winona and Warly are probably the most notable "swap characters" in the game, and that's what is disappointing to me.

I think that them having shareable perks is a misdiagnoses on what makes a swap character seen as a swap character.
The real problem that Winona and Warly have when it comes to being swap characters is: they have nothing impactful that they retain after making their structures. When it comes to Winona, she doesn't have anything that sets her apart from any other character after the catapults are put down until this skill tree, and Warly simply has no upsides to go along with him making his foods/spices. 
The fact that neither of them have things that set them apart once their items are present in the world make them seen as characters who have outlived their purpose, the solution to this shouldn't be to limit the character's tools and perks, it should be to make the character more interesting and stand out more on their own

 

5 minutes ago, GreenBowers said:

The skill tree leans pretty much fully on her structures, so if they didn't make the structures exclusive, then the skill tree just enforces her as a swap character that everyone can just use their gimmick without even bothering to play her.

This reads as a  problem with the skill tree and its approach more than an issue with catapults being shared

[Mike23Ua]

4 minutes ago, Maxil20 said:

It’s so woefully ironic in the first place, because it doesn’t even stop her from being a “swap character” if your only objective is to use the catapults for AOE purposes. Instead of swapping from the character you like, making the catapults, and swapping back to the character you like, you now swap from the character you like, be Winona to use the catapults for what you wanted them for, and swap back to the character you like. It just doesn’t feel good and encourages more spammy portal shenanigans to accomplish what you were doing prior, which I already don’t like doing.

That’s the entire point…. You now need to create and use more Moon Rock Idols.

[JustExo]

6 minutes ago, GreenBowers said:

Whenever she crafts something, she loses 5 hunger and can craft like crazy for 30 seconds, so It would have been cool if like, she could go into her speed overdrive mode on other activities beside crafting, like skill one - consume 5 hunger when winona does a harvest action, like picking grass, saplings, berries, ect. For the next 30 seconds, she harvests at a much faster rate, or skill two - consume 10 hunger when winona mines/chops a resource, for the next 30 seconds, mine/chop at a much faster rate. She's a hard worker after all.

This approach to her skills and perks should be what people ask for instead of just asking for catapults to be character specific

Just now, Mike23Ua said:

That’s the entire point…. You now need to create and use more Moon Rock Idols.

This isn't a problem whatsoever, and only minorly inconveniences you AT MOST. This doesn't fix any problem that the character has

[Maxil20]

6 minutes ago, GreenBowers said:

I mean, if you want to do 2x damage to a boss, you do the same for wolfgang.

The thing that’s important here is Winona is the only character has access to reliable AOE. I most of the time don’t need to swap to Wolf to do 2X damage because I don’t mind taking a little longer to kill the boss (the only times I really have is to binge kill 40 champions at once to speed up farming). To a leases extent characters have means of transport and teleport options so you can get by without those. Winona, specifically, is the only character that has a reliable AOE source which is crucial in a number of farms to work without using extreme mob spam or cheese methods. 

[GreenBowers]

It is also very early on in the beta, and they probably didn't work on the weekend, so maybe they'll address our feedback if we give it to them. I'd say let them cook a little bit longer, while providing notes and what you think should change.

[ShadowDuelist]

5 minutes ago, JustExo said:

The fact that neither of them have things that set them apart once their items are present in the world make them seen as characters who have outlived their purpose, the solution to this shouldn't be to limit the character's tools and perks, it should be to make the character more interesting and stand out more on their own

I think that's why they added her mini lunar quest of grinding items, or the teleport perks on either side, I think Winona is more than just her catapults now.

[GreenBowers]

Just now, Maxil20 said:

The thing that’s important here is Winona is the only character has access to reliable AOE. I most of the time don’t need to swap to Wolf to do 2X damage because I don’t mind taking a little longer to kill the boss (the only times I really have is to binge kill 40 champions at once to speed up farming). To a leases extent characters have means of transport and teleport options so you can get by without those. Winona, specifically, is the only character that has a reliable AOE source which is crucial in a number of farms to work without using extreme mob spam or cheese methods. 

You can get by without Aoe, there's a few options in the game.

[Mike23Ua]

3 minutes ago, JustExo said:

This approach to her skills and perks should be what people ask for instead of just asking for catapults to be character specific

This isn't a problem whatsoever, and only minorly inconveniences you AT MOST. This doesn't fix any problem that the character has

What it effectively does is prevents Wolfgang from being able to use Winona’s Catapults.

I could just imagine him being able to summon Abigail lol.

Yes sadly the entire game seemingly needs to be balanced around the big guy..

But I for one who really enjoy playing as Winona, enjoy having more reasons to continue being Winona.. rather than building catapults and swapping to Wolfgang to get the best & most optimal playstyle.

[Well-met]

very good change tbh

[chaosmonkey]

16 minutes ago, ShadowDuelist said:

I think it's fair that you need to use certain characters to really get the most out of their benefits. Having "swap characters" just makes the whole skill tree and effort put into that character useless. Winona and Warly are probably the most notable "swap characters" in the game, and that's what is disappointing to me.

They could eliminate the swapiness by providing real perks from the skill trees that actually incentivize playing that character without forcing you into it. Warly for instance could get longer/more/extra bonus from his spices, higher hunger/etc from foods, and so on. They don't need to take away from utility as a swap to make them good to play in their own right.

[GreenBowers]

They could just give warly like, a 'butcher' perk that if he was involved in attacking something within a short timeframe of its death, it has a greater volume of drops, cause he can get the most out of a creature and can butcher them for more meat ect. Or extending Winona's crafting speed hunger perk to work with more types of work like harvesting, mining, and chopping.

They should really just focus on gimmicky stuff like that, that reward you for physically being on the character and not just making their specific stuff then leaving, or swapping to them for a few minutes to do something very specific before swapping back.