Please do not rework more old bosses

[lowercase skye]

4 hours ago, cybers2001 said:

People on these forums have a habit of misconstruing the difference between what is physically possible and what is mentally taxing. Many of us complaining about FW aren’t doing so because we can’t beat him. We’re doing so because the level of effort for a fight that occurs many times over the lifespan of a world is too high, and lategame gear doesn’t do enough to account for that.

Truthfully it's exhausting how much this cycle has happened lately, of people describing why Fuelweaver isn't any fun for a lot of us and getting a response of "no, look, check this out: video of someone leading a boss back and forth around an arena" as if it would somehow be more fun to fight the Most Intensive Boss In The World if we were instead luring him around in circles like a horse and constantly visualizing an invisible timer so we know the right place to be on the invisible grid whenever he tries to do that attack he does like every 5 seconds. Yeah maybe it would be more enjoyable if we made it MORE of a task that takes MORE effort, that would probably make the insanely high effort fight feel better! :/

[Gameplayer143]

3 minutes ago, finn from human said:

Truthfully it's exhausting how much this cycle has happened lately, of people describing why Fuelweaver isn't any fun for a lot of us and getting a response of "no, look, check this out: video of someone leading a boss back and forth around an arena" as if it would somehow be more fun to fight the Most Intensive Boss In The World if we were instead luring him around in circles like a horse and constantly visualizing an invisible timer so we know the right place to be on the invisible grid whenever he tries to do that attack he does like every 5 seconds. Yeah maybe it would be more enjoyable if we made it MORE of a task that takes MORE effort, that would probably make the insanely high effort fight feel better! :/

I honestly wouldn't even dislike FW if the item switching wasn't so annoying and changed where items are in which slot if you dont have full inventory. But nah I don't think this specific strategy that requires you to know all of these esoteric and unintuitive mechanics to dodge his bone cage is better.

[Guille6785]

16 minutes ago, Gameplayer143 said:

Are you seriously trying to argue the average DST player is going to find out how to dodge the bone cage attack on their own?

none of the people that learned to dodge the bone cage are superhumans

[Gameplayer143]

2 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

none of the people that learned to dodge the bone cage are superhumans

Remind me the conditions you need to achieve in order to reliably dodge his bone cage and then tell me that the average player can learn about those mechanics. Also assuming this in the heat of battle, how are people supposed to figure it out?

[Guille6785]

7 minutes ago, Gameplayer143 said:

Remind me the conditions you need to achieve in order to reliably dodge his bone cage

step 1: wait for him to start the bone cage attack
step 2: step outside the range of the attack

[Gameplayer143]

4 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

step 1: wait for him to start the bone cage attack
step 2: step outside the range of the attack

You need to be within a certain range to bait that attack and far enough to avoid it. The likelihood of the average DST player learning that seems minimal. Especially when this is the same boss fight with many stuff you have to deal with like the woven shadows, unseen hands, sanity and out DPSing his healing.

Not everyone is a tryhard at this game.

[cybers2001]

1 hour ago, finn from human said:

Truthfully it's exhausting how much this cycle has happened lately, of people describing why Fuelweaver isn't any fun for a lot of us and getting a response of "no, look, check this out: video of someone leading a boss back and forth around an arena" as if it would somehow be more fun to fight the Most Intensive Boss In The World if we were instead luring him around in circles like a horse and constantly visualizing an invisible timer so we know the right place to be on the invisible grid whenever he tries to do that attack he does like every 5 seconds. Yeah maybe it would be more enjoyable if we made it MORE of a task that takes MORE effort, that would probably make the insanely high effort fight feel better! :/

Yeah, then the nerds who probably aren’t even better at the game get to dunk on us because if you have a criticism, you’re probably just skill-issued. When I’m 2k days into a world, I’m not looking to flex. I just want to chill.

FW is the type of fight that can take 2 minutes or 6 minutes depending on many factors that can lead to him sneaking a bite of some woven shadows. This is even further compounded by the buggy nightmare creatures that may or may not harass you after recovering your sanity. 

[grm9]

On 6/11/2024 at 10:16 PM, Gameplayer143 said:

Like if I have to copy a strategy found online, I feel that kills the fun in learning about the game yourself

executing the fight's still fun, otherwise how do you even have fun when fighting bosses for the 2nd time?

On 6/11/2024 at 10:28 PM, Gameplayer143 said:

Also if by "experiment" you mean test the fight in a seperate world where you just turn on creative mode to spawn him in the attrium or rollback then thats not what I'd argue is learning the fight in a natural pacing intended for the game

should hard bosses just not exist if practicing is unintended?

On 6/11/2024 at 10:58 PM, Gameplayer143 said:

You need to be within a certain range to bait that attack and far enough to avoid it. The likelihood of the average DST player learning that seems minimal

average player doesn't need to know that, you don't need to dodge bone cage to kill FW

On 6/12/2024 at 12:03 AM, cybers2001 said:

Yeah, then the nerds who probably aren’t even better at the game get to dunk on us because if you have a criticism, you’re probably just skill-issued

you're saying things that no one else said, that's misinformation, the point was that most people probably don't know about it being possible to do the fight that way and complained

On 6/12/2024 at 12:03 AM, cybers2001 said:

When I’m 2k days into a world, I’m not looking to flex. I just want to chill

then use cheese or brightshade staff, killing FW by using bone helm, thurible and brightshade staff is really easy

On 6/11/2024 at 10:58 PM, Gameplayer143 said:

Not everyone is a tryhard at this game

then just keep using the strats that you were using?

On 6/11/2024 at 10:35 PM, finn from human said:

luring him around in circles like a horse and constantly visualizing an invisible timer so we know the right place to be on the invisible grid whenever he tries to do that attack he does like every 5 seconds

that just shows that you don't even know how to fight him that way

On 6/12/2024 at 12:03 AM, cybers2001 said:

the nerds who probably aren’t even better at the game

how's that relevant

[cybers2001]

10 minutes ago, grm9 said:

how is that relevant

If you feel my comment isn’t relevant to you, maybe it wasn’t addressed to you.

[Gi-Go]

1 minute ago, cybers2001 said:

you’re probably just skill-issued. 

Not probably, definetly. You don't need to take it personally, fuelweaver is a hard boss and if you need strategies and advice just ask for it. why would you instead say that fuelweaver needs his heal nerfed when letting him heal is not bad luck. it's purely a skill issue. 

here is a fight showcase using the loot you mentioned during this threat that you fight with, and as you can see it is very simple:

1. Use thurible. They give cage immunity while held or when you stand next to them. use a second one while clearing hands and wovens manually, just to be safe.
2. just tank him with 2 bone armors. self explanatory.
3. use brightshade staff if you feel like it. brightshade helmet will give it extra bounces and it will prioritize same targets as the one you shot (it will kill hands if you shoot a hand).
4. don't let him go into the circle.

 

2024-06-12 00-20-39.mkv

[hoxi]

1 hour ago, Guille6785 said:

step 1: wait for him to start the bone cage attack
step 2: step outside the range of the attack

Ah yes, the totally clearly telegraphed attack with telegraphed range that totally doesn't give vibes of "I probably can't dodge this".

Especially when you consider that people might've tried to step away a bit to see if they could dodge it, and failed (this is one of the first things I did when I tried the fight for the first time, years ago and gave up and assumed it can reach me anywhere, or at least anywhere in the arena), so it probably wouldn't cross most people's minds that they need to be unreasonably far away from him and have perfect timing.

If the attack was telegraphed and had a reasonable time window to dodge it in reasonable situations, then sure, it's on the player for not dodging it. Speaking of, it's pretty ironic that jokes about Dark Souls and dodging being boring or so get thrown around often, yet dodging the bone cage is basically that on steroids because it's not even intuitive.

38 minutes ago, cybers2001 said:

This is even further compounded by the buggy nightmare creatures that may or may not harass you after recovering your sanity. 

Funnily enough, the beta finally addressed this issue in general.

[cybers2001]

39 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

Not probably, definetly. You don't need to take it personally, fuelweaver is a hard boss and if you need strategies and advice just ask for it.

Why don’t you come to my server and do it for me. I can pay you in high fives and rogue energy drinks.

[Mysterious box]

26 minutes ago, hoxi said:

If the attack was telegraphed and had a reasonable time window to dodge it in reasonable situations, then sure, it's on the player for not dodging it. Speaking of, it's pretty ironic that jokes about Dark Souls and dodging being boring or so get thrown around often, yet dodging the bone cage is basically that on steroids because it's not even intuitive.

While I'm skeptical about changing the dodge window as it is technically another one of those fights that gets easier as you progress through the end game I do think it is reasonable to have them telegraph it more if it helps with learning the dodge times.

[Gi-Go]

51 minutes ago, hoxi said:

Ah yes, the totally clearly telegraphed attack with telegraphed range that totally doesn't give vibes of "I probably can't dodge this".

Especially when you consider that people might've tried to step away a bit to see if they could dodge it, and failed (this is one of the first things I did when I tried the fight for the first time, years ago and gave up and assumed it can reach me anywhere, or at least anywhere in the arena), so it probably wouldn't cross most people's minds that they need to be unreasonably far away from him and have perfect timing.

If the attack was telegraphed and had a reasonable time window to dodge it in reasonable situations, then sure, it's on the player for not dodging it. Speaking of, it's pretty ironic that jokes about Dark Souls and dodging being boring or so get thrown around often, yet dodging the bone cage is basically that on steroids because it's not even intuitive.

 

 

19 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

While I'm skeptical about changing the dodge window as it is technically another one of those fights that gets easier as you progress through the end game I do think it is reasonable to have them telegraph it more if it helps with learning the dodge times.

The range for fuelweaver to cast cage is 3 terf tiles, but it catches targets in a 3.5 radius. You can use a dug turf piece before fight to measure arena. You can use statues on the right for reference as they are exsactly 3 tiles apart. Cooldown is 10 seconds, but you can extend it and stretch to a comfortable point by baiting fuelweaver into melee attack. If there's no target when the cooldown is over, there will be a short 3 second cooldown for the cage, and you can extend it with melee bait too.

What I'm saying is fuelweaver is not that hard, you don't need to be a tryhard. Here is me intentionally failing bone cage timer 8 times and as you can see it's not a big deal. 

 

[Gameplayer143]

1 hour ago, hoxi said:

Ah yes, the totally clearly telegraphed attack with telegraphed range that totally doesn't give vibes of "I probably can't dodge this".

Especially when you consider that people might've tried to step away a bit to see if they could dodge it, and failed (this is one of the first things I did when I tried the fight for the first time, years ago and gave up and assumed it can reach me anywhere, or at least anywhere in the arena), so it probably wouldn't cross most people's minds that they need to be unreasonably far away from him and have perfect timing.

If the attack was telegraphed and had a reasonable time window to dodge it in reasonable situations, then sure, it's on the player for not dodging it. Speaking of, it's pretty ironic that jokes about Dark Souls and dodging being boring or so get thrown around often, yet dodging the bone cage is basically that on steroids because it's not even intuitive.

Funnily enough, the beta finally addressed this issue in general.

Nah bro you don't get it, you have to put in enough level up points in Adaptability to have the iframes to dodge Fuelweaver's cage attack. 

Okay jokes aside I can legit see Fuelweaver being a Bloodborne boss with how he looks and themed around.

5 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

 

The range for fuelweaver to cast cage is 3 terf tiles, but it catches targets in a 3.5 radius. You can use a dug turf piece before fight to measure arena. You can use statues on the right for reference as they are exsactly 3 tiles apart. Cooldown is 10 seconds, but you can extend it and stretch to a comfortable point by baiting fuelweaver into melee attack. If there's no target when the cooldown is over, there will be a short 3 second cooldown for the cage, and you can extend it with melee bait too.

What I'm saying is fuelweaver is not that hard, you don't need to be a tryhard. Here is me intentionally failing bone cage timer 8 times and as you can see it's not a big deal. 

 

Bro no average DST player is going to bring a pitchfork to measure the attack range that they may never know they could actually dodge. 

[Gi-Go]

21 minutes ago, Gameplayer143 said:

Bro no average DST player is going to bring a pitchfork to measure the attack range that they may never know they could actually dodge. 

Can you please stop running all over the place looking for things to cry about? In case you forgot here is your original issue:

"Nah FW sucks as a boss fight. Its basically a resource gatekeep and a tedium of inventory management. i dont know how youre even supposed to deal with his inviniciblity without a nightmare amulet and bone traps without a nightmare amulet and lazy traveler or playing as Wortox or Wanda. If you decide to just become naturally insane he just mind controls you to get a free hit on you or heal for HP easily. These are things you have to deal with that make killing him before he heals himself, impossible to do without said items. Celestial Champion is a much better final boss than him."

Now you learned a lot, the issues are resolved, but instead of saying something like "hmm, maybe I was inexperienced and the boss might actually be a fair and a fun challenge" you keep whining about random stuff like how noone is gonna bring pitchforks and... why would you now suddenly care about random avarage players who only go in blindly? 

God what a time waste to actually talk with fuelweaver haters. 

 

[Gameplayer143]

17 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

Can you please stop running all over the place looking for things to cry about? In case you forgot here is your original issue:

"Nah FW sucks as a boss fight. Its basically a resource gatekeep and a tedium of inventory management. i dont know how youre even supposed to deal with his inviniciblity without a nightmare amulet and bone traps without a nightmare amulet and lazy traveler or playing as Wortox or Wanda. If you decide to just become naturally insane he just mind controls you to get a free hit on you or heal for HP easily. These are things you have to deal with that make killing him before he heals himself, impossible to do without said items. Celestial Champion is a much better final boss than him."

Now you learned a lot, the issues are resolved, but instead of saying something like "hmm, maybe I was inexperienced and the boss might actually be a fair and a fun challenge" you keep whining about random stuff like how noone is gonna bring pitchforks and... why would you now suddenly care about random avarage players who only go in blindly? 

God what a time waste to actually talk with fuelweaver haters. 

 

Why are you getting your panties in twist that people don't like your favourite boss? It's just a video game, relax. 

First of all nothing about learning new tricks about AFW change my opinion. I still think if you have to learn this esoteric and uniuntive trick to avoid his bone cage attack, I think that's bad game design and unfun to deal with. Like your mentality here of expecting people to learn guides from literal who youtubers or lesser known tricks that aren't even that intuitive is basically you saying, "you can't ever criticize AFW."

[MxLilly]

4 hours ago, Gameplayer143 said:

Why are you getting your panties in twist that people don't like your favourite boss? It's just a video game, relax. 

First of all nothing about learning new tricks about AFW change my opinion. I still think if you have to learn this esoteric and uniuntive trick to avoid his bone cage attack, I think that's bad game design and unfun to deal with. Like your mentality here of expecting people to learn guides from literal who youtubers or lesser known tricks that aren't even that intuitive is basically you saying, "you can't ever criticize AFW."

made a forums account to pitch in as a relatively new player that likes to optimize games, but isn't anywhere on the level of a speedrunner:

you don't have to dodge the bone cage in order to beat AFW??? I absolutely suck at dodging the bone cage and manipulating his position away from woven shadows. However, I can still do the fight most of the time with no damage modifiers, a hambat, a moderate amount of armor, about a stack of cactus, an orange staff or two and like 3 weather pains (which i could probably bring down with better positioning) to help with the woven shadows. You don't HAVE to learn the "esoteric and unintuitive trick" to avoid his bone cage, you can still use orange staves to teleport out of the bone cage just fine, and i will generally use 95% of a single staff to dodge every bone cage in the span of the entire fight. dodging the bone cage is optimal, but not necessary.

I also do think there is merit in seeing hyper-optimized play as well, because you can usually find a couple tricks to help with the bossfight still, even with less optimized play. for example, right before AFW enters phase 2 i will usually lure them into a corner of the arena to make the upcoming woven shadows easier to handle.

I do think there are merits to making AFW slightly easier, especially for newer players, but I don't think that has to come in the form of a rework. some numbers adjustments should be more than enough tbh, like increasing ability cd by a few seconds or maybe he enters phase 2 at 9k hp instead of 10k, woven shadows are slightly larger to make them easier to hit, idk. but after being able to practice it a few times it's genuinely not that hard to get a hang of.

I can't speak on behalf of the clues and etc. as I was introduced to this game through playthoughs way before I was able to buy it, although I do agree that some abilities should be clearer, but I do think it's 100% doable. I would definitely encourage you (if you play on the pc version) to spawn in items via cheats and actually just do the fight a few times. If you still think it's way too much pressure and too difficult, that's fair. maybe a couple stacks of gunpowder is more your style (which is an entirely valid way to go about the fight, idk why some people are complaining that you HAVE to fight him like this), but I don't believe the fight should be reworked entirely.

[grm9]

17 hours ago, Gi-Go said:

just tank him with 2 bone armors

you could also dodge with void robe to not get sanity drain

[grm9]

10 hours ago, Gi-Go said:

you can keep him in the middle, it's fine

[Gameplayer143]

9 hours ago, MxLilly said:

made a forums account to pitch in as a relatively new player that likes to optimize games, but isn't anywhere on the level of a speedrunner:

you don't have to dodge the bone cage in order to beat AFW??? I absolutely suck at dodging the bone cage and manipulating his position away from woven shadows. However, I can still do the fight most of the time with no damage modifiers, a hambat, a moderate amount of armor, about a stack of cactus, an orange staff or two and like 3 weather pains (which i could probably bring down with better positioning) to help with the woven shadows. You don't HAVE to learn the "esoteric and unintuitive trick" to avoid his bone cage, you can still use orange staves to teleport out of the bone cage just fine, and i will generally use 95% of a single staff to dodge every bone cage in the span of the entire fight. dodging the bone cage is optimal, but not necessary.

I also do think there is merit in seeing hyper-optimized play as well, because you can usually find a couple tricks to help with the bossfight still, even with less optimized play. for example, right before AFW enters phase 2 i will usually lure them into a corner of the arena to make the upcoming woven shadows easier to handle.

I do think there are merits to making AFW slightly easier, especially for newer players, but I don't think that has to come in the form of a rework. some numbers adjustments should be more than enough tbh, like increasing ability cd by a few seconds or maybe he enters phase 2 at 9k hp instead of 10k, woven shadows are slightly larger to make them easier to hit, idk. but after being able to practice it a few times it's genuinely not that hard to get a hang of.

I can't speak on behalf of the clues and etc. as I was introduced to this game through playthoughs way before I was able to buy it, although I do agree that some abilities should be clearer, but I do think it's 100% doable. I would definitely encourage you (if you play on the pc version) to spawn in items via cheats and actually just do the fight a few times. If you still think it's way too much pressure and too difficult, that's fair. maybe a couple stacks of gunpowder is more your style (which is an entirely valid way to go about the fight, idk why some people are complaining that you HAVE to fight him like this), but I don't believe the fight should be reworked entirely.

Problem was I already used the method that uses the various items like nightmare amulet, weather pain and lazy traveller to make it easier, but I hate the item switching management and items possibly going in the wrong item slot when you switch if you dont have a full inventory. I already tried that method and it was unfun tedious inventory managment. Nowhere am I claiming that AFW should be nerfed, I dont know why people keep accusing me of wishing he be nerf. My main problem with AFW is how the game doesn't make it clear how to dodge his bone cage attack and how annoying item switching is especially if you dont have a full inventory. And I can't just simply have a full inventory because I use mutliple weather pains but have to worry about one of them breaking.

And that's another thing you assume people play on PC, what if they play on console? They can't do what you suggested. And I do think you should be able to practice against a boss fight in the game without relying on cheats or abusing rollbacks too much. And no suggesting you can just use gunpowder is not a good excuse, you might as well excuse any boss that doesn't move too much or can be stunned, that is also annoying to fight with "just use gunpowder lmao".

[arubaro]

On 6/9/2024 at 12:22 AM, finn from human said:

It surprises me how critical people seem to be about the attack chances whenever in my eyes it's the most standard thing ever to do in a videogame. Lots of bosses in the Binding of Isaac will do a big attack and then sit still for a few seconds afterwards to give you a chance to do a charged/active attack on them. Bosses in the Pikmin series cycle through a defensive phase, big attacking phase, and then a weak moment where you're encouraged to throw all your Pikmin at them. Rayman Origins/Legends bosses will do a large attack followed by a weak spot opening up as they sit there tired. Pizza Tower's bosses stop to taunt you and give a few second window to rush right at them. Plants vs. Zombies has its Zombots malfunction for a moment if attacked while rushing down a lane. The Ender Dragon in Minecraft flies around attacking you from afar, then perches at her nest where you can easily fire arrows right at her. And these are only examples from games that I instantly think of.

It looks silly on the Nightmare Werepig (on account of him being a tutorial for the idea of an attack chance, so it's hardly prompted) but the idea of a big moment to whale on a boss is old as time. I'm a big fan of it and I'm glad Klei has been sticking to such a design so much, it feels very satisfying to play defensively until the attack chance and then pull out the big guns.

The problem is spamming it.

I love nightmere werepig but is alarming how 4 new bosses were added at that time and all of them got the same mechanic. Is like how they are adding the same throw back mechanic to 90% of the new enemies.

They could add other mechanics or ways to give room for hitting and they can add more mechanics to make the fights difficult (and add them to the old enemies because makes no sense that any of the old bosses got the throwback...)

We need variation and when we see something being abused ofc we will be alarmed

Also moondeerclops is kinda boring because you need to repeat all the time the same thing. Atleast now, when you remove the ice protection,  is less repetitive but kinda sucks

 

Again, i like the new fighting mechanics but not how they are being spammend. It feels like when a kid says something kinda funny so now they repeat it over and over and over until isnt funny but irritating. Yep, good idea to add stuns and throw back (uncompromising mod had throwback for treeguards years ago..) but dont waste it in such short time...

[Ridley]

42 minutes ago, Gameplayer143 said:

My main problem with AFW is how the game doesn't make it clear how to dodge his bone cage attack and how annoying item switching is especially if you dont have a full inventory.

Are we supposed to be able to dodge the bone cage? When it used to be possible to stand near an edge so an incomplete bone cage spawned and the player was able to slip right out, they patched it. I thought it was designed to be un-dodgeable.

[Gameplayer143]

1 hour ago, Ridley said:

Are we supposed to be able to dodge the bone cage? When it used to be possible to stand near an edge so an incomplete bone cage spawned and the player was able to slip right out, they patched it. I thought it was designed to be un-dodgeable.

If the bone cage dodge is supposed to be an exploit or bug then I don't know why other people keep suggesting to me try the bone cage dodge when it's literally an unintended feature, a bug. That's not telling people a certain strategy, that's telling people on how to break the game. I shouldn't have to rely on bugs or exploits in order to beat a boss.

1 hour ago, arubaro said:

The problem is spamming it.

I love nightmere werepig but is alarming how 4 new bosses were added at that time and all of them got the same mechanic. Is like how they are adding the same throw back mechanic to 90% of the new enemies.

They could add other mechanics or ways to give room for hitting and they can add more mechanics to make the fights difficult (and add them to the old enemies because makes no sense that any of the old bosses got the throwback...)

We need variation and when we see something being abused ofc we will be alarmed

Also moondeerclops is kinda boring because you need to repeat all the time the same thing. Atleast now, when you remove the ice protection,  is less repetitive but kinda sucks

 

Again, i like the new fighting mechanics but not how they are being spammend. It feels like when a kid says something kinda funny so now they repeat it over and over and over until isnt funny but irritating. Yep, good idea to add stuns and throw back (uncompromising mod had throwback for treeguards years ago..) but dont waste it in such short time...

I mean it's not like stunning each one is the same. You have to time a firestaff right against Deerclops or run in with a torch with a good timing with its icicle regen. You have to dodge Bearger's butt slam and then hit it 2 times when its still on the ground, but in a specific way you dont get hit to have the time to land the 2 hits. Also there's other ways to bait bearger to do the butt slam like baiting it to do the charge butt slam at lower health. Varg is the simplest one but you have to deal with all of the hounds chasing you, these are all different from Werepig as they involve using an attack at the right time instead of just dodging an attack 3 times. I don't see how any of these have a different attack pattern and quality of strategy compared to Nightmare Werepig.

[Cyrefy]

1 hour ago, Ridley said:

Are we supposed to be able to dodge the bone cage? When it used to be possible to stand near an edge so an incomplete bone cage spawned and the player was able to slip right out, they patched it. I thought it was designed to be un-dodgeable.

Fact number 2:
If you see another attack from the same boss, the attack with the spiral of bones, it makes a shadow so that we can dodge it, very strange that the cage of bones supposed to be the dodgeable attack doesn't have any indication, isn't it? curious...

Defending the bone cage dodge is the equivalent of defending void walking, it's in the game but should we use it?

a question of ethics I think.

I don't think it's wise to use glitches to defend a boss from a possible rework.