Please do not rework more old bosses

[Gameplayer143]

16 minutes ago, grm9 said:

nah, although i probably should stop since it seems apparent that you aren't even going to try the strats

you don't really need to figure out much about that, you can just have it happen and realise how to deal with that right after

then ask for adding clues about that instead of turning the fight into something like AG and CC that only have 1 extremely easy strat for doing them that you'll do on 1st or 2nd try except dealing with gestalts that spawn out of traps after laser breaks them

Have it happen and realise how to deal with with that right after is called figuring out the boss fight, yes I do think you should be able to be figured out on how to deal with them without having to go online and copy other strategies. 

Nothing Ive said indicated I wanted AFW to be nerfed to be easy, I was complaining that dodging the bone cage was untuitive and esoteric and the inventory switching needed with a nightmare amulet, weather pain and lazy traveller is a tedium of item management with the method I primarily have used.

[Cyrefy]

I could complain about all the FW methods for hours... but regarding the bone cage, I don't think dodging is intentional, it's absurdly specific, aside from the fact that I don't think the arena was designed for the player to stay out of the circle, I feel super caustophobic doing this, but it's the way I do it, not by choice, many worlds I enter are already in spring and there are no more goats to farm, and no one deserves to wait until next winter for a walkingcane, then I learned to do it without anything because of that, but I hate it, I like using several items much more, but acquiring them is very inefficient, plus the boss outside the circle only has 1 attack, what I enjoy the most about this combat hell is dodging the spiral attack in the first phase.
But playing in the center of the circle is very problematic without a Weather Pain, because the boss's hitbox is very high, and I don't know why there is a huge pillar in the middle of the arena, besides the shadows sometimes have a silhouette visible enough to not let you click on the skulls that literally grow at the foot of the boss, and the boss's hitbox is so high, the skull is inside the hitbox, so if you try to press F it considers the boss to be closer, even though it clearly isn't .
The best strategy ends up being the most boring and the one that makes you feel like you are doing something that shouldn't be done.
And this is a boss that I prefer to do alone, because it's very easy for someone to get in the way, pulling the boss into the middle of the arena, plus more people means more shadow creatures, and for some reason you can't cancel mind control. with lazy explorer when there is more than one person (I tested with 2), and there can be no error, 1 error and the combat is over, it needs to be perfect, which ends up being boring, as I like playing in groups.
But if you think it's good, that's fine with me, but if it's changed in the future I'll be very happy  .

[grm9]

1 minute ago, Gameplayer143 said:

Have it happen and realise how to deal with with that right after is called figuring out the boss fight, yes I do think you should be able to be figured out on how to deal with them without having to go online and copy other strategies

the point was that you don't need practically any thought and there's only 1 strat for those bosses, you can spend time figuring out strats on your own for ANR bosses but not new bosses because optimal strats for them are really easy and obvious

3 minutes ago, Gameplayer143 said:

Nothing Ive said indicated I wanted AFW to be nerfed to be easy, I was complaining that dodging the bone cage was untuitive and esoteric

that doesn't matter for you because you know about it now and you can ask for them to add clues about that

4 minutes ago, Gameplayer143 said:

the inventory switching needed with a nightmare amulet, weather pain and lazy traveller is a tedium of item management with the method I primarily have used

you don't need to use them

[Mike23Ua]

Guys, please stop arguing. 
the answer to this entire thread is as simple as Character Reworks, Re-Reworks, Tweaks to Reworks, and now also Skill Trees that all collectively served one purpose- Making the game easier to pick up play and enjoy for casuals who had a significantly harder time staying alive then they now will with all the changes intended to make the game easier for them to Enjoy. Pretty much in Klei’s own words nontheless…!

What this means for anyone actually paying attention, is that if Klei finds these bosses to be too challenging, too complicated to figure out how to even spawn, or just not enough of their playerbase can do them- They WILL GET CHANGES

And that’s a definite history proven, fact.

With that said.. Klei now has a “Character Affinity” Perk which gives them actual detailed statistics of who has and who has not progressed far enough into the game to unlock Lunar & Shadow skill trees, just as they once had actual detailed statistics of how many Wilson players have died over the games 10 year life span.

I “Think” that Klei knows what they’re doing, and if they find that people aren’t enjoying it or aren’t engaging with something as much as they would like, then they’ll make minor or major changes to it (based on what they feel is required)

Even though I’ve never fought AFW and have no damn clue how to even summon him, I DO KNOW that the last 3 Xbox patches have had features in the game changed exclusively to make that particular fight less of a pain in the backside for players using a controller (things like weather pains having better woven shadow targeting, being able to quickly swap between cane and weapons without your inventory becoming a jumbled mess, better control/range of teleporting using Wortox or Teleport staff to avoid bone cage etc…)

Klei is already closely examining your bosses under a fine microscope lens and the above, should clearly prove it, and it’s only a mere matter of time that much like lessening or completely removing crippling character downsides- That these bosses will get changes and tweaks too.

You can Bank on that.  

[Gameplayer143]

7 minutes ago, grm9 said:

the point was that you don't need practically any thought and there's only 1 strat for those bosses, you can spend time figuring out strats on your own for ANR bosses but not new bosses because optimal strats for them are really easy and obvious

that doesn't matter for you because you know about it now and you can ask for them to add clues about that

you don't need to use them

Well I'd rather the strategies be obvious as opposed to esoteric and unituitive with dodging the bone cages. 

It does matter because it still sounds unituitive in split second decision making while fighting bosses and it feels more like an exploit than something you learn. Im copying someone else's strategy rather than figuring out the boss fight on my own.

 

[grm9]

Just now, Gameplayer143 said:

Well I'd rather the strategies be obvious as opposed to esoteric and unituitive with dodging the bone cages

you're not even reading my messages, i've suggested adding clues about that multiple times

1 minute ago, Gameplayer143 said:

It does matter because it still sounds unituitive in split second decision making while fighting bosses

you never tried using that strat, go do that

1 minute ago, Gameplayer143 said:

Im copying someone else's strategy rather than figuring out the boss fight on my own

because you never tried to figure that out, i wouldn't be surprised if you also think that you can't use ham bat against toad

[Gameplayer143]

3 minutes ago, grm9 said:

you're not even reading my messages, i've suggested adding clues about that multiple times

you never tried using that strat, go do that

because you never tried to figure that out, i wouldn't be surprised if you also think that you can't use ham bat against toad

Id already addressed this argument. I dont need to climb Mt Everest to know I'd hate climbing it.

Explain to me how the average player is supposed to figure out how to dodge his bone attack on top of dealing with all of the other mechanics AFW has in the heat of combat.

Seriously dude, not everyone needs to like the same bosses you like.

[grm9]

1 minute ago, Gameplayer143 said:

Explain to me how the average player is supposed to figure out how to dodge his bone attack on top of dealing with all of the other mechanics AFW has in the heat of combat

idk, that's why i've suggested adding clues about it thrice, you could've figured out that you can lure him away from woven shadows to not need AoE though

[Gameplayer143]

Just now, grm9 said:

idk, that's why i've suggested adding clues about it thrice, you could've figured out that you can lure him away from woven shadows to not need AoE though

I'd argue that AFW not having clues with the bone cage is part of the reason why I don't like the boss fight. You literally accused me of "never tried to figure it out", so I dont know why you'd agree with me that AFW could use more clues but then accuse me of not even trying to figure it out.

[grm9]

1 minute ago, Gameplayer143 said:

then accuse me of not even trying to figure it out

because you didn't figure out things that you can figure out either

1 minute ago, Gameplayer143 said:

I'd argue that AFW not having clues with the bone cage is part of the reason why I don't like the boss fight

that's irrelevant for you now that you know how it works

[Gameplayer143]

4 minutes ago, grm9 said:

because you didn't figure out things that you can figure out either

that's irrelevant for you now that you know how it works

Idk why you're so insistent on arguing with me with this. What happened to you saying that you'd stop arguing before?

It's still relevant to me because the trick to dodge his bone attack still feels like an exploit and is unituitive. When I make an opinion on how boss fights are, I also take in account on how intuitive their mechanics are.

[Mike23Ua]

26 minutes ago, Gameplayer143 said:

Id already addressed this argument. I dont need to climb Mt Everest to know I'd hate climbing it.

Explain to me how the average player is supposed to figure out how to dodge his bone attack on top of dealing with all of the other mechanics AFW has in the heat of combat.

Seriously dude, not everyone needs to like the same bosses you like.

People on PC have a pretty massive advantage over Xbox/PlayStation/Nintendo players, they have access to Admin Commands and Mods, so not only can they toggle on God Mode, but they can also spawn a boss right in front of them so they can practice fighting it over and over again until they figure out how it works, and even if they happen to die- They can cheat the system by having back up game save files to fall back on.

Id even go so far as to say that playing DST on PC is probably like playing on “Easy Mode” why? Because the features intended to work in dst are all designed for PC first with controllers being less of a priority.

But it’s a vastly different world on Consoles, we can not just “back up” our saves, or conveniently spawn in a boss and the tools we need to fight them, or enable god mode to carefully examine each of the bosses animations and know all its attack patterns.

No, when we die we either lose our worlds, attempt a server Rollback (which starts the fight over from the very beginning or where your game last auto-saved before that) Or we get frustrated enough to not even bother with it for future attempts.

Im not telling Klei how to design their game but a lot of stuff (particularly when it comes to boss fights) feel highly unfair in DST…

Like if it’s your first or even 5th time attempting to fight Klaus, without looking up guides online there is no way in Hell that your prepared for its second phase and brand new devestating lounge attack, there’s no possible clue or way to know that killing his deer will buff him up to near impossible strength levels.

And even newer content like Willow and Bernie- There’s No way that you learn that using Bernie will cause him to perform extra AoE attacks then he will if you don’t take Bernie- The thing designed and intended to be used for Boss Fights…. Into this Boss fight.

You don’t learn ANY of this Stuff without detailed guides, Some annoying whiny voices brat in a YouTube video, people on these forums telling you “Git Gud Noob” 

No, you learn all this instead through many failed attempts of strategies that don’t work, many rolled back game saves that quite literally mean you WASTED YOUR TIME AND ACCOMPLISHED NOTHING!!

Theres a Reason why I hate DSTs boss fights so much.. and this comes from someone who plays RogueLike games where not only are boss fights a core part of that genre, they can also feel cheap and unfair.

The difference though is that it’s an 22 hour grind to reach Celestial Champion, and most RogueLite games can be completely beaten (provided enough failed attempts and learned knowledge) in about 4 hours.

to put it simply: DST demands too much of the players time and dedication to reach the point where you dare to challenge the games bosses… and without the proper knowledge prior to even going into the fight, your going to fail miserably and either lose your entire game save, or waste all the time you invested into the fight.

The game gives you NO Notification that bosses are actually healing up when you break away to heal or raise your sanity, you can quite literally spend 4 hours fighting a boss that kept healing up meanwhile your thinking “holy hell this thing has wayyyyyy too much health.”

[Gi-Go]

2 hours ago, Gameplayer143 said:

anyone seriously going to say they miss the old Ancient Guardian vs the reworked one?

I will. Garbage rework baby boss for babies. I'd be fine in DST but they also did this stupid rework for classic DS where the boss barely has hp and won't even have time to fight back. 

Exsactly the same situation as with crab king. A decent boss gets reworked instead of being tweaked so that even 5 year olds could beat him. Original ancient guardian was a good giant type boss, and just had 10k hp for no reason when he needed 5k. 

You can fight him without pillars if you so choose, but once the phase 2 stars he will use useless attack and gets staggered anyways. I miss the old one. 

[Gameplayer143]

4 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

I will. Garbage rework baby boss for babies. I'd be fine in DST but they also did this stupid rework for classic DS where the boss barely has hp and won't even have time to fight back. 

Exsactly the same situation as with crab king. A decent boss gets reworked instead of being tweaked so that even 5 year olds could beat him. Original ancient guardian was a good giant type boss, and just had 10k hp for no reason when he needed 5k. 

You can fight him without pillars if you so choose, but once the phase 2 stars he will use useless attack and gets staggered anyways. I miss the old one. 

In no way is the old boss fight where you just hide behind a pillar and cheese him is better than the one where you have to bait him to charge at multiple pillars (but specifically ones that are far enough to actually stun him), watch out for earthquakes and watch out for shadow tentacles or his new jump attack.

[Gi-Go]

2 hours ago, cybers2001 said:

People on these forums have a habit of misconstruing the difference between what is physically possible and what is mentally taxing. Many of us complaining about FW aren’t doing so because we can’t beat him.

"We complain about fuelweaver but not because we can't beat him"

How they beat him: 

 

9 minutes ago, Gameplayer143 said:

In no way is the old boss fight where you just hide behind a pillar and cheese him is better than the one where you have to bait him to charge at multiple pillars (but specifically ones that are far enough to actually stun him), watch out for earthquakes and watch out for shadow tentacles or his new jump attack.

That's the cheese method. In proper fight you get a mag and kite him which is alright for a giant* type boss. 

[Gameplayer143]

3 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

"We complain about fuelweaver but not because we can't beat him"

How they beat him: 

 

That's the cheese method. In proper fight you get a mag and kite him which is alright for a giant* type boss. 

If there's a cheese method I can judge the boss fight being worse because of said cheese method. Also the reworked boss has more going on with it to distinguish it from just a bigger rook to make it more interesting.

[Gi-Go]

6 minutes ago, Gameplayer143 said:

If there's a cheese method I can judge the boss fight being worse because of said cheese method. 

You're just trying to win an argument instead of having a discussion? At first you acted like the only way to fight old AG was the cheese, I mention the proper and fun way, and you go to this reply as if trying to one up me. 

If you think old AG is worse because you go out of your way to cheese him then I can't really help you. Noone can. Same with the guy that showed you proper fuelweaver strategies, you didn't had time to process what you even witnessed, much less try it out, and you already wrote a reply conclusion that bee queen is more engaging. Come on. 

[Gameplayer143]

14 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

You're just trying to win an argument instead of having a discussion? At first you acted like the only way to fight old AG was the cheese, I mention the proper and fun way, and you go to this reply as if trying to one up me. 

If you think old AG is worse because you go out of your way to cheese him then I can't really help you. Noone can. Same with the guy that showed you proper fuelweaver strategies, you didn't had time to process what you even witnessed, much less try it out, and you already wrote a reply conclusion that bee queen is more engaging. Come on. 

It was one of my critcisims towards the old AG, the other being it was just a bigger rook. I much prefer the new rework for being more unique.

Bro in no way is dodging the bone cage intuitive something you can naturally learn. Yes I'd argue trying to dodge the brumble bees chasing you is more engaging than the startegy presented in the video that other guy posted. Still don't like Beequeen mind you.

[Gi-Go]

30 minutes ago, Gameplayer143 said:

Bro in no way is dodging the bone cage intuitive something you can naturally learn. 

I can say the same thing about the very process of summoning fuelweaver. Noone is blaiming you for not realizing that the cage has a range, that's what the community is for. You do know it now, so no more excuses. Go have a fight with him using minimal gear and once you'll beat him you'll realize how awesome the boss actually is. 

[grm9]

9 minutes ago, Gameplayer143 said:

Yes I'd argue trying to dodge the brumble bees chasing you is more engaging than the startegy presented in the video that other guy posted

you never even tried it, please stop talking about it and spreading misinformation, it isn't even your opinion since you never tried it to see if it's fun, that's just some sort of odd guess

[Gameplayer143]

Just now, Gi-Go said:

I can say the same thing about the very process of summoning fuelweaver. Noone is blaiming you for not realizing that the cage has a range, that's what the community is for. You do know it now, so no more excuses. Go have a fight with him using minimal gear and once you'll beat him you'll realize how awesome the boss actually is. 

I'd argue that games shouldn't require you to use a wiki to learn how to play them and figure out their mechanics. There's plenty of stuff in this game Im willing to tolerate requiring a wiki but dodging the bone cage is like leagues leagues more unintuive that I dont like about it.

Keep in mind even if I don't like either FW or Beequeen I don't think FW is worse than Bee Queen. Thematically he's cooler than Bee queen and I like the concepts his boss fight has, I just take issue with the execution and item management tedium. I do think overall FW is still a better boss fight than Bee queen and has neat concepts to it.

[Gi-Go]

2 minutes ago, Gameplayer143 said:

I'd argue that games shouldn't require you to use a wiki to learn how to play them and figure out their mechanics. There's plenty of stuff in this game Im willing to tolerate requiring a wiki but dodging the bone cage is like leagues leagues more unintuive that I dont like about it.

I don't think this is relevant, just like AG cheese. We are talking about the fight and how hard/fun it is, not about an overall game design. Your issue is inventory management and you should stay on that topic. 

 

[Gameplayer143]

8 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

I don't think this is relevant, just like AG cheese. We are talking about the fight and how hard/fun it is, not about an overall game design. Your issue is inventory management and you should stay on that topic. 

 

I mean the other guy brought up another strategy that doesn't use as much equipment but it also uses the esoteric and unituitive bone cage dodging to accomdate no lazy explorer. I feel like game mechanics being intuitive or not is relevant to how fun fights are. Like if I have to copy a strategy found online, I feel that kills the fun in learning about the game yourself.

[Guille6785]

8 minutes ago, Gameplayer143 said:

Like if I have to copy a strategy found online, I feel that kills the fun in learning about the game yourself.

you don't have to copy it from anyone, you can just experiment yourself, that's how strategies are discovered in the first place, the wiki doesn't tell you everything

[Gameplayer143]

10 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

you don't have to copy it from anyone, you can just experiment yourself, that's how strategies are discovered in the first place, the wiki doesn't tell you everything

Are you seriously trying to argue the average DST player is going to find out how to dodge the bone cage attack on their own? Also if by "experiment" you mean test the fight in a seperate world where you just turn on creative mode to spawn him in the attrium or rollback then thats not what I'd argue is learning the fight in a natural pacing intended for the game.