Please do not rework more old bosses

[Primalflower]

Just now, Popian said:

snip

the key is the terminology. Raid bosses are meant to be a Raid. They're meant to summon a sizeable portion of the server in order to pile on and reap the rewards as a team. This is a common term in other games and in those games you usually want a handful of players too. If a clip like this stream doesn't really convince you in that way then nothing short of a dev just saying exactly my words will. No offense but I don't have the energy to argue this point further and it feels obvious enough that it drains me to talk about at length

[Szczuku]

8 hours ago, finn from human said:

t surprises me how critical people seem to be about the attack chances whenever in my eyes it's the most standard thing ever to do in a videogame. Lots of bosses in the Binding of Isaac will do a big attack and then sit still for a few seconds afterwards to give you a chance to do a charged/active attack on them. Bosses in the Pikmin series cycle through a defensive phase, big attacking phase, and then a weak moment where you're encouraged to throw all your Pikmin at them. Rayman Origins/Legends bosses will do a large attack followed by a weak spot opening up as they sit there tired. Pizza Tower's bosses stop to taunt you and give a few second window to rush right at them. Plants vs. Zombies has its Zombots malfunction for a moment if attacked while rushing down a lane. The Ender Dragon in Minecraft flies around attacking you from afar, then perches at her nest where you can easily fire arrows right at her. And these are only examples from games that I instantly think of.

And?
There are games where bosses don't do that

Terraria bosses constantly attack you. Cult of the Lamb bosses constantly attack you. Dead Cells bosses constantly attack you. Enter the Gungeon bosses constantly attack you. Ds/t bosses pre 2023 constantly attack you

Turns out there are various ways to make a boss fight

[Mike23Ua]

2 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

I feel like part of the problem is the wind down mechanic feels like it's designed for a single person fighting those bosses which definitely is a better experience when fighting it alone but means that it makes any form of teamwork trivialize the bosses even harder. Also it kinda feels weird that we're making bosses much weaker but making characters increasing more overpowered like I get it klei is trying to make the game more new player friendly but it really harms the teamplay aspect and the vibe of struggling to survive together.

Call me crazy but I kinda always felt like the Dont starve franchise was never actually about the bosses, I mean yeah they existed.. but I play DS, THE ENTIRE CAMPAIGN MODE, Shipwrecked & Hamlet having genuine fun without ever once interacting with a boss that wasn’t completely optional or avoidable.

I guess you can say I can do the same in DST (mostly.. except for The Story driven world wide global content progressing required boss fights) the problem with DST however is that Klei continues to push these bosses AS THE MAIN CONTENT FOCUS.

Even the current Beta.. it could’ve been all about cool ocean exploration, discovering new islands, new ocean set pieces, new mobs out at sea, instead we got a reworked boss. 

yeah crab king surely needed to be touched up on, but the point still stands that it seems Klei can’t do an update without also just throwing in a boss fight/rework for boss.

And if they’re going to be the majority of the games content, then they probably need to be accessible and enjoyable to players of varying skills & playstyles?

I feel like group based survival should come in the form of global world based threats, stuff like new weather seasons, new mob behaviors etc..

[Larael]

Sabes... Que rápido se desvían del tema principal para exponer el pq de si la pelea es buena o mala según su experiencia.

No obstante creo que tener algo como "legacy" que se ha usado en otros juegos encaja perfecto con la descripción de la construcción de jefes que mencionas. A los antiguos "legacy" no los cambien y a los otros hagan lo que quieran

Pd: sorry lazy enough to write this in English 

[Pedrolar27]

On 6/7/2024 at 12:03 PM, Guille6785 said:

I know having a discussion about this on the forums is essentially a lost cause, but this is the only medium that can actually reach Klei so I thought it was worth writing just to add my 2 cents. I already anticipate that the replies to this post are just going to strawman my arguments or insult me for being a speedrunner but whatever

I want to preface this by clarifying a few things about my position:

-I do not think old Crab King was an amazing boss. Of the bosses with the old design philosophy, Crab King was actually my least favorite. Nobody who dislikes the new CK fight thinks the old boss was perfect; we are in agreement that it wasn't. However, I do believe that old CK was massively overhated, and a lot of that hate came from outright misinformation that was spread by various youtubers who painted the fight as an overly punishing resource dump that forced you to use a dozen weather pains and ice staves when it objectively wasn't. Even as my least favorite of the old major bosses, I still liked old CK more than any of the post-celestial champion bosses because there was a lot of depth to the fight when you understood his mechanics.
-I realize that this is a beta and the boss is going to be changed. This post isn't about new CK itself or how it can be improved, but rather about how its design philosophy should not be carried over into other bosses.
-I am not asking for the boss to be reverted. I'm not stupid, I realize that Klei already spent a lot of time creating the new assets and they're not going to scrap them. Personally, I think that everything the boss needed was number tweaks to be enjoyable by everybody, but now it's too late to do anything about it. The only thing I can do is ask for other bosses to not be given the same treatment.

The actual explanation:

The "major" bosses in DST (everything with more health than the seasonal giants for the purposes of this discussion) can be identified into two distinct design philosophies, which I personally call the "old design philosophy" and the "new design philosophy" (although it's not actually new per se).

The old design philosophy (consisting of Dragonfly, Bee Queen, Toadstool, Ancient Fuelweaver, old Crab King, and, to a lesser extent, the Shadow Pieces and phase 3 of Celestial Champion) mainly consisted of having a relatively simple enemy with a basic and predictable attack pattern, usually with no more than 1 basic attack, which was important because the main difficulty of the fight did not come from dodging attacks (it was just one part of the fight), but rather from mechanics that would be introduced shortly after the fight begins. These include fuelweaver's invincibility, dragonfly's lavae, toadstool's trees, bee queen's constant grumble spawning, crab king's healing, etc. This is what I like to call the "insurmountable obstacle".

The genius of the insurmountable obstacle is that there never was one way to deal with it. The obvious response to it would be brute forcing it with armor, healing, and/or a lot of damage via multiple players, and this worked, but unless you had a lot of damage you would have to deal with the mechanic one way or the other. The next obvious solution would be to use endgame items and resources to make the mechanic easier to deal with: Lazy explorers, weather pains, tons of ice staves, bone armor, warly dishes, etc. This would be enough for most players, but if you wanted to approach these fights without the luxury of endgame items or an entire squad of players to decimate the bosses, the mechanics would, in my opinion, be at their best, because they heavily pushed you towards getting creative and finding new ways of dealing with them.

Just to list a few examples:

  Reveal hidden contents

-For Dragonfly, the obvious answer to most people is to wall off the lavae. This works, but can be time consuming to set up and can result in the fight going on for much longer than with other methods because the Dragonfly is not guaranteed to enrage with this method and can instead simply repeat lavae phases infinitely. Instead, if you have blue gems to spare, ice staves 3-shot lavae regardless of your damage multiplier and, if you're skillful, can even allow you to dodge dragonfly's moving attacks. However, ice staves are not the only way to freeze lavae: Flingomatics work just as well, and both of these methods give you free rocks everytime you kill the lavae as well. However, there's less incentive to consider this if you have access to speed and/or damage multipliers; with a ham bat, it's not impossible to just kill the lavae as the Dragonfly spawns them. This is definitely riskier, but is perfectly viable even when solo. If you have 1 buddy to help you, the lavae are literally programmed to only attack the player closest to them, making it possible to simply use someone as bait while the other player kills them. However, you technically don't even have to kill them: Only the last lavae has to be killed by the player to guarantee an enrage, meaning that with enough speed, you can simply catch up to Dragonfly and stall her with a pan flute and then kill the last lavae while all the others die on their own. Or if you're really creative, you can use Dragonfly's own lavae phase against her, by leading her into tentacles which will then stun her to death while she can't fight back. This is only a tiny fraction of all the viable Dragonfly strategies.

-For Toadstool, weather pains are commonly recommended by youtubers, and as such many people wrongly assume this boss is only doable with weather pains, which is a massive misunderstanding of its mechanics. A quick trip to the lunar island for glass axes and some items to stun the boss will result in the fight giving you lengthy damage opportunities, letting it go by surprisingly quick even if you have no damage multipliers. These can be extended by exploiting Toadstool's own massive movement speed increase with 8 or more sporecaps by leading it as far as possible from its hole before chopping the trees (optionally getting it stuck behind one of its own ponds). Don't forget that the morning star is an extremely good weapon for this fight, especially if you fight Toadstool during your first or second winter/spring. However, you don't even have to chop the sporecaps; fire from torches and fire staves works extremely well, but is much more demanding in terms of positioning as burnt sporecaps create sporeclouds that are hazardous to the player. However, with a good understanding of the fight, one can even bring a ham bat as their weapon of choice; many people wrongly believe that you can't use a ham bat for this fight, but you can simply drop it when you get a spore on you to prevent it from spoiling. This isn't even to mention the many strategies that outright prevent the sporecaps from spawning, allowing this mechanic to be overcome in a completely different way.

-Ancient Fuelweaver is one of the fights with the most potential for creativity due to the depth in its mechanics, and new strategies are still being found weekly for this boss. At a surface level, it may seem like the fight simply expects you to bring multiple buddies and just click the woven shadows as they spawn, but this is simply how the fight lets you brute force it; Fuelweaver is, in reality, a very positioning-based fight in which you micromanage the positon of the Fuelweaver relative to its minions and the arena at all times while you overcome its mechanics. This can be done, as many people do, by using AOE abilities to outright kill the woven shadows, such as abigail, weather pains, bramble husk, etc. While this is viable and even efficient, you're not forced to use items such as these. With good positioning, the woven shadows can be prevented from ever reaching Fuelweaver, which albeit slower, lets you bypass the need for those items. However, you don't even have to do this: With even better positioning, the Woven Shadows can actually be killed without ever needing to walk Fuelweaver around the arena and without the need for AOE abilities. The Fuelweaver's own bone cage helps with this, as it kills all the woven shadows around it. When it comes to the unseen hands, the nightmare amulet may be the obvious answer to most people, but most forget that sanity food is just as viable. In fact, with good positioning, it can even be preferable to the nightmare amulet by intentionally tanking the mind control attack before going sane again. However, who says that you even have to go sane again? 0 sanity strategies, albeit extremely risky, are viable, and have even been performed in the world record speedrun for this boss. The lazy explorer can be a huge help in this scenario, since telepoofing makes Fuelweaver stop its mind control attack, and you're probably already bringing one to escape the bone cages. However, it's not necessary, and in fact, you don't even need it to escape the bone cages. Again, with good positioning, the bone cage can be kited just like almost every other attack in the game, as it has a range. I'm heavily simplifying here; Fuelweaver is an extremely deep and rewarding fight, and there are tons of insane strategies that I could talk about, such as how it is now consistently possible to do Fuelweaver with a single moose idol as Woodie with an extremely good understanding of his mechanics, but I'd be here all day if I discussed that.

The best part of all of this is that no one strategy that I listed is objectively "better" than the rest. They each have their pros and cons and can all theoretically be considered the "best" within a particular scenario. And as a testament to how well implemented these mechanics are, you can generally always expect the mechanics that use more late game gear to simplify the mechanics more and vice versa; the more gear you take away, the more layers the fight will have and the more things you'll have to manage at once. This is something that, in my opinion, makes the old design philosophy perfect for a sandbox/survival game like DST. DST is not a game about dodging attacks in flashy ways; combat should serve as an extension of the survival aspect, and therefore, resource and time management elements allow combat to be at its best despite the simple system. Sadly, this would essentially be removed with the new design philosophy.

In simple terms, the "new design philosophy" consists of fights where the "main" mechanic is dodging attacks, in contrast to bosses with the old design philosophy. This philosophy seems largely inspired by Klaus, a relatively simple boss compared to the other ANR bosses, which didn't follow their philosophy but rather tried to simply expand on the combat mechanics of the seasonal bosses (i.e. dodging attacks). However, Klaus doesn't truly belong to this category. The formula truly started with phase 1 and 2 of Celestial Champion, and has since been used on every boss added afterwards (Twins, New Ancient Guardian, Nightmare Werepig, Frostjaw, the 3 lunar bosses, Scrappy Werepig and New Crab King). Common characteristics in bosses that use this philosophy include having a limited pool of moves that it cycles through, having few additional mechanics on top of dodging attacks (if any), having low health pools, all its attacks being specifically designed to be dodged, even with no speed multipliers (as confirmed by the developers), all its attacks being well telegraphed, having attacks be dodged in different directions, punishing the player for trying to tank, and, most infamously, having long stun phases where the player can just hold F with no risk of retaliation, etc.

Now, to make this clear, I am not here to argue which philosophy is the "better" one. I recognize that many more people enjoy the new philosophy; I am more aware than anyone that the old design philosophy was very frustrating and unintuitive to many people who were simply expecting bossfights that were more in line with what other games in the genre do (e.g. terraria), with soulslike elements and a largely self-contained encounter that doesn't incorporate survival elements into it. However, objectively speaking, the old philosophy encouraged more creativity and allowed for more player expression. This is something that is notoriously lacking in the new fights, even if you enjoy them, as it seems that each of these fights seems heavily designed to be done in one particular way, oftentimes patching out different ways to do the fight.

Without turning this into a full-on essay, my proposition here is simple: Both philosophies can coexist. I do not mind that people enjoy the new fights; I don't, but it doesn't affect me that other people do. However, what does affect me is that many people think that the new design philosophy is objectively better when this is plain false, and beg Klei to rework the old bosses to fit the new philosophy. And, as of this latest update, Crab King was officially turned into one of the new bosses, permanently taking away 1 of the very few bosses belonging to the old philosophy. I do not think this is the right direction for the game; I don't mind if the only bosses getting added use the new philosophy, but please, if any Klei developers are reading this, don't scrap the old fights in favor of the new design. I fear that the people who designed those bosses are no longer working at Klei, and that the current team misunderstand the value of their own work. The old fights are amazing and, at most, could use a few number tweaks, but they are beautifully designed and allow a level of player expression and creativity that I've literally never seen in any other game. DST's old bosses are extremely unique even within an already niche genre of game, and it sucks that this piece of media that I hold dear to my heart is being taken away in favor of generic bite-sized encounters that are more popular with the general playerbase. I don't mind that new easier fights are being added, but please don't cave in to complaints and rework the old fights; they are special to many people and Don't Starve was never a franchise that gave up its unique ideas in favor of copying what the other games in its genre were doing.

As for what made Old Crab King good: As I mentioned, old CK was not my favorite of the old bosses, but it wasn't a bad boss in my eyes by any means. The way I see it, all Crab King needed was the following changes: A more lenient window to cancel heals, claws requiring a fixed number of hits to kill (so damage multipliers aren't required for the rowing-dependent strategies to be optimal), a slight rebalancing of the gems, and a less claustrophobic arena to encourage maneuvering. I've already explained this in previous posts, but Crab King was an extremely unique fight as the only truly "boat" fight in the game (Malbatross is essentially just a land boss like moose/goose that occasionally pushes your boat away). Crab King was a very demanding boss in terms of positioning, and some aspects of the fight could be frustrating (such as random rockjaws and seagulls putting seeds in the water that block boat placement), but once mastery of his mechanics was reached it was actually very fun and brought something new to the table that you couldn't find anywhere else. It was an intense fight that required more exertion than other bosses but put you fully in control if you knew what you were doing.

Many people wrongly believe that weather pains were the only way to cancel Pearled Crab King's heals, but this was simply incorrect. Using a small amount of followers was usually consistent enough to where he would never heal more than once or twice, and this introduced the additional challenge of unfreezing your followers with items such as dwarf stars, torches, or by preventing the attack from happening altogether. This was in addition to dodging (or cancelling) geysers, clearing nearby claws (which were a massive threat to your boat), all while always remaining close enough to cancel the heals whenever they occurred. Crab King massively benefited from later patches; the movement speed of boats with oars getting increased helped a lot, and the recent patch that made attack speed consistent actually made it consistently possible to cancel the Pearled Crab King's heals if you timed it correctly. The result was a hectic yet deep fight with many layers to it and a lot of room for the player to mix and match different equipment to help with different aspects of it: Weather pains were always useful to cancel the heals regardless but you didn't have to use ice staves with them, grass and wood boats had their pros and cons for this fight, you could either let your boat die or repair it, etc.

Was the fight perfect? Definitely not, but it had a solid foundation and I think the developers overcorrected and scrapped everything, including the good things, because they misunderstood the value of their own work. However, I don't blame Klei for this one bit; far too many people spent the last 4 years parroting the same points made by a few youtubers that painted the Crab King as the worst designed boss in the game just because they assumed they were forced to do the fight with ice staves, weather pains and/or bees. It sucks to see a boss that I enjoyed suffer this fate, and sadly it's too late now to undo it, but I hope that if some developers are reading my post they won't look at the other old bosses with shame and instead accept them for the unique ideas they bring to the table, as I believe that they are amazingly designed fights that encourage creativity like no other. I hope the new CK gets changed a bit to bring back some of what made the old fight good, but I think the new additions are fundamentally flawed and I frankly can't suggest anything that might achieve this without scrapping the new assets. I do wish the new CK ends up being as good as it can be though (it better be or otherwise the loss of old CK would've been for nothing).

In my opinion (I have played dst since RoG) the "new philosophy" seems better to me because of how the game has evolved. Before you didn't have so many items to face a boss, in that context the "old philosophy" was perfect since it consisted of short attack patterns (hit 4 times and dodge like that until the end). Now that DST has grown in all aspects we can afford more dynamic combats in which there is always the option of making a mistake. This does not mean we should change to the deercplos or moosegoose, the game should retain its own identity, CK was a hated boss before the rework and I think it is a boss that could never be introduced well. A success story is the AG while his original fight was boring and almost a procedure now there is a real reason to go for it. My final verdict is that we focused too much on the singleplayer when all the bosses were designed so that at least 2 people fight against it and in the face of any philosophy the number of players will always prevail.

[Gashzer]

Disagree, klei needs to rework the old raid bosses- dfly, bee queen, toadstool, AFW.

Deerclops/bearger have already got minor reworks, moose goose and antlion are fine as is.

Edit: this is a great topic to repost my bee queen rework idea 

 

[grm9]

2 hours ago, Pedrolar27 said:

In my opinion (I have played dst since RoG) the "new philosophy" seems better to me because of how the game has evolved. Before you didn't have so many items to face a boss, in that context the "old philosophy" was perfect since it consisted of short attack patterns (hit 4 times and dodge like that until the end)

please read the post, old bosses are toad, BQ, dfly, FW and somewhat CK, not bearger

18 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Disagree, klei needs to rework the old raid bosses- dfly, bee queen, toadstool, AFW

saying that without a reason is pointless

8 hours ago, Ridley said:

Handling the additional spawns or obstacle deletion intended for teamwork requires a solo player to do something clever and that this is an intriguing concept for veteran players who want to keep discovering something new in the game

you do realise that you never need to interact with bosses? they were pretty much late game that you could rush, just like ruins, that's why they aren't for newbies

[Gashzer]

27 minutes ago, grm9 said:

saying that without a reason is pointless

Im taking it one rework at a time. We have the crab king rework after that bee queen is in the most dire need of a rework.

Which i have already posted a solution to in my previous post.

[grm9]

5 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

We have the crab king rework after that bee queen is in the most dire need of a rework

it isn't

5 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Which i have already posted a solution to in my previous post

you've literally just suggested to remove all strats except a few strats that already work, that'd just make it worse

[Gashzer]

Just now, grm9 said:

you've literally suggested to remove all strats except the strats that the characters that you play as often are good at, that's just making it worse

You literally have not read my rework idea if you are saying that.

[grm9]

1 minute ago, Gashzer said:

You literally have not read my rework idea if you are saying that

i did, you've literally just suggested to make all strats except using minions worse and make using minions better even though using minions already works

[Gashzer]

Just now, grm9 said:

i did, you've literally just suggested to make all strats except using minions worse and make using minions better even though using minions already works

No i have not, this is a lie. 

[grm9]

Just now, Gashzer said:

No i have not, this is a lie

maybe you should read own post again

[GreenBowers]

2 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

You literally have not read my rework idea if you are saying that.

Probably best not to argue with this guy, seeing as he took someone disagreeing with him that the old crab king boss was enjoyable and responded that they just suck and are bad at the fight. He says its pointless to say things without reason then just

Which is peak hypocrisy

[Gashzer]

Just now, grm9 said:

maybe you should read own post again

Maybe other people can read and decide for themselves 

Clearly you have a bias against me 

[GreenBowers]

You're not gonna get anything with him here xD

[grm9]

3 minutes ago, GreenBowers said:

he took someone disagreeing with him that the old crab king boss was enjoyable and responded that they just suck and are bad at the fight

because they said that the only way to fight him is to go in circles which is just misinformation

4 minutes ago, GreenBowers said:

Which is peak hypocrisy

???

3 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Maybe other people can read and decide for themselves

how's that related

4 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Clearly you have a bias against me 

no?

[GreenBowers]

I love the zero punctuation short spammy replies too. It really strengthens your argument.

[Gashzer]

13 minutes ago, GreenBowers said:

I love the zero punctuation short spammy replies too. It really strengthens your argument.

Its his signature arguement technique. 

Speedrunners are fighting so hard against good changes to the game.

DST boss fights need to be made easier in general. I personally dont need them to be, im good at the game but i want to play DST with my wife. Its really hard trying to get her into DST when there is a massive difficulty spike when fighting bosses.

Alot of people dont like being carried 100% in games (my wife included) they want to figure things out themselves but between dodgy controls on the switch version and very hard to learn bosses, it gets frustrating for her.

Im prepared to sacrifice difficulty and "player expression" during boss fights for more clearly designed and linear boss fights so its easier to convince new people to play DST.

[grm9]

7 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Its his signature arguement technique

it isn't, i only respond that way when there's nothing else to say, what am i supposed to say as a response to someone saying "BQ should get a boss rework because i said so"?

7 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Speedrunners are fighting so hard against good changes to the game

i'm not a speedrunner and fun is subjective, if game would've been the way you want it to be i would've probably stopped playing

7 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

DST boss fights need to be made easier in general. I personally dont need them to be, im good at the game but i want to play DST with my wife. Its really hard trying to get her into DST when there is a massive difficulty spike when fighting bosses

because, surprisingly, you're supposed to survive 1st in a survival game, not rush bosses after you learn that weapons and armor exist, they were added as something to do for people that survival wasn't an issue for anymore

7 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Alot of people dont like being carried 100% in games (my wife included) they want to figure things out themselves but between dodgy controls on the switch version and very hard to learn bosses, it gets frustrating for her

you don't learn old bosses, you figure out strats for them, you're supposed to at least go through a year before fighting bosses if you have issues so you'd at least get to know that solutions for them exist e.g. weather pains

7 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Im prepared to sacrifice difficulty and "player expression" during boss fights for more clearly designed and linear boss fights so its easier to convince new people to play DST

i'm not, we don't need more baby mode dark souls games, i wish we could at least keep games that aren't copies of other games, bosses also already don't require a brain to kill if you get enough armor and healing/minions so there are no issues with difficulty, only people getting surprised that they can't do bosses day 1st try after installing the game

[Gashzer]

58 minutes ago, grm9 said:

it isn't, i only respond that way when there's nothing else to say, what am i supposed to say as a response to someone saying "BQ should get a boss rework because i said so"?

i'm not a speedrunner and fun is subjective, if game would've been the way you want it to be i would've probably stopped playing

because, surprisingly, you're supposed to survive 1st in a survival game, not rush bosses after you learn that weapons and armor exist, they were added as something to do for people that survival wasn't an issue for anymore

you don't learn old bosses, you figure out strats for them, you're supposed to at least go through a year before fighting bosses if you have issues so you'd at least get to know that solutions for them exist e.g. weather pains

i'm not, we don't need more baby mode dark souls games, i wish we could at least keep games that aren't copies of other games, bosses also already don't require a brain to kill if you get enough armor and healing/minions so there are no issues with difficulty, only people getting surprised that they can't do bosses day 1st try after installing the game

Klei are reworking bosses to be more clear and accessible.

So im pretty sure they disagree with you, thank god for that.

Because your definition of whats "fun" isnt the sort of fun klei should be aiming for if they are looking to grow their game and bring in new players.

[grm9]

5 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Klei are reworking bosses to more clear and accessible.

So im pretty sure they disagree with you, thank god for that.

Because your definition of whats "fun" isnt the sort of fun klei should be aiming for if they are looking to grow their game and bring in new players

why on earth do you think that everyone want to be able to do everything 1st try? people'll stop playing really quickly if everything'll be as easy as new bosses because there'll be nothing to improve at after they do everything once, it'll just be megabasers left

[Gashzer]

Just now, grm9 said:

why on earth do you think that everyone want to be able to do everything 1st try? people'll stop playing really quickly if everything'll be as easy as new bosses because there'll be nothing to improve at after they do everything once, it'll just be megabasers left

Megabasers buy item skins to dress up their bases.

Do speedrunners pay for skins? I know you don't.

Klei is running a business here. The more players they can keep playing DST for longer increases the chances of them buying skins.

Making bosses easier atleast gets new players hooked for longer instead of them giving up and playing a different game.

It would be dumb of klei to try to keep veterans with 10000hrs happy who probably dont buy skins anyway instead of trying to make it easier for people like me to get new players into DST.

[grm9]

2 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Do speedrunners pay for skins?

yes, you can watch practically any run, most of them have skins for all items that they use during runs, there are only like 10 speedrunners though, not only they like old bosses

3 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

I know you don't

i'm not a speedrunner

4 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

The more players they can keep playing DST for longer increases the chances of them buying skins

not even a half of players are megabasers, if only they'll remain, they won't get more profit

5 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Making bosses easier atleast gets new players hooked for longer instead of them giving up and playing a different game

how are they related to new players? why are new players doing bosses instead of surviving in a survival game 1st?

6 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

It would be dumb of klei to try to keep veterans with 10000hrs

it isn't just them

6 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

who probably dont buy skins anyway

???

6 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

instead of trying to make it easier for people like me to get new players into DST

bosses are unrelated to new players

[Gashzer]

Ive said my opinion on the matter. 

There are always two sides to every coin.