I'm unhappy about Crab King changes

[ADM]

On 6/7/2024 at 7:49 PM, JeezSorry said:

The entire fight just seems like a way to get people to stop spamming ice staff

That could be true, lol, although personally I rarely even used the Staves or encouraged anyone to use it against Crab King, as much as it's good to use it against the geysers, there's just cheaper and funnier (but no issue with using a certain strat over another, there were few anyway so everything is good to take). And it could turn against you because if frozen at the wrong time CK could exit some states incorrectly and this would bug his claw spawn mechanism and endlessly respawn them despite it's only supposed to happen when healing or at the beginning of the fight under a fixed health %, I can only imagine how many people didn't realise this happened to them and thought to themselves... that fight is impossible... no it's just bugged !  :o)

 

On 6/8/2024 at 5:09 AM, YouKnowWho said:

That said, I'm a little confused about what it was you liked about the old crab king. There doesn't seem to be much beyond being "already over the difficulties of the old fight."

For starter, and the most important in my heart, is that there was nothing like Crab King elsewhere, no amount of bosses and enemies in the franchise were showing (or ever will from now on...) combat features like his battle. Fighting a boss with full health, with no need for defensive equipment leaving room for all the utility you can wish for is so unique, it's not just a possibility like elsewhere but a suggestion you're not often given, on all slots. It's a fight for your hull, not your HPs. Healing, and dodging is beautifully transferred over the ship with as much tenseness as it would be if you took the hit directly. And you can tank with your boat, then repair, or place another (now good luck with that... ice everywhere), or use rowing momentum to simulate kiting as claws chase you, I always loved that the moment I understood. And it took me time to understand, and appreciate it !

Because of the uniqueness, again. When faced fair and square the first time it's a reset of your combat understanding. It's like being a newbie wondering how the hell are we supposed to avoid Deerclops' attacks as it demolish a base, not even considering fighting back, just not getting hit feels infeasible and you might get angry at this actually. After hundreds of hours in DST, it'll happen to you again against CK, it's a reflection of our humble beginnings and confusion.

But it's not exactly the same, the feeling and getting over it comes with notable differences from the rest of the game and its challenges, I'll explain them and you can tell me if you agree or not. And I think they caused the actual distaste from Crab King for the players that actually tried it, or attempted to guess it :

Spoiler

• CK was bound to improve as seafaring improved too, but it released too soon, boating content was made too rare after, and Klei seems to have done their best to leave these things as barebone so that nothing could possibly interact with the boss. I'm actually shocked -
  That bumpers did nothing instead of reducing the hull damage vs claws or bump them back...
  that would have made the Rudder useful at the same occasion.
  Or that the trident wasn't a stepping stone to defeat the boss (and even after the new buff, the spell damage are horrendously terrible) when pearled.
  That the Cannons are so unpractical against him, and his claws. Their damage and single ammo type could not motivate anyone to accept the backward push.
  There could have been water based followers to be fighting with buddies, but, I suppose the Marotters will not be the ones.
  And the Grass Raft was going to be in theory better against CK, but if you ever tried it against the boss... unlike the devs... you'd know...
  
  There can be hundreds of little things to make boating better in general, like a 'Vessel Saving Pendant' that could save your boat from breaking and use hunger to repair leaks and damage made. If you want to make boating content good, you make it good against CK and it's almost natural if the initial intention is not to make it suck anyway !
   
• And maybe the position of Crab King as the most unique boss can also be hindering, because his fight, when pearled, is far in the game, and has no introduction (or, fighting him unpearled is not enough suggested) more new mobs could have resembled him, that latch on boats, require oaring. Add wandering lesser claws, or bobbit worms idk ? At any rate you train your players and give opportunities for loot and boating content.

These two points were my spark of hope for a rework, personally I look into these things and I see the best ways to rework CK by almost not touching him and doing the obvious.

 

And it didn't even hit me before the rework but as obvious as it should sound, CK moves synergized so well with each others, while still giving the player a fun rhythmic to follow and beat him. After the rework, I don't understand why the boss is so counterproductive with himself, everything he do has a fat chance to be canceled at the next action, like he's so panicked he forgot how to fight. It's a shame to look at if you had any admiration to how it was :

We had claws forbidding an escape as geysers were going to hit, or keep us from breaking the healing. The freezing, as easy as it was to avoid, was still powerful if a claw or leak was positioned in the place you need to avoid, it's a time to reposition. Crab King summoned his claws when he needed them the most, and they were here to say. Now what. He summons claws to remove them only as fast, he summons crabs to block + sink them, unlucky ! And the cannons... if this sounds fun or "better" then it's some humor I'm not sensible to, in my eyes it's disrespecting the boss.

And well, I'm only speaking of the logic so far, it was smart and became stupid... but the difficulty is something else worth mentioning, and I would have accepted nerfs to him, yes. Old Crab King was a mighty challenge, even with the weakest gems, and I loved it, and it was still doable with any gem maxed, really just for the thrill and flex, and as the only modder to have so far introduced new gems to DST, I loved the capacity I had to give him new buffs, if you ever saw what I did. And while this aspect still remain, everything is much less noticeable, to the point the Pearl do none of the bigger enhancements like piercing cannonballs or what remains of the grabbing claws, all I did so far feel less legitimate if buffs are now intended to be as discreet as can be.

 

Easiness came at a cost of design. This rework only makes me think that whoever worked on it didn't ever fight the original CK and threw it away instead of looking to perfect him. That's a sad sight.

[Cruvimaster]

It's interesting to think that the developers had three months to design the CK and now they will have about three weeks (mere guess) to make some adjustments to make it better. I'm curious to see what they do. If they will do something, of course.

[GreenBowers]

4 minutes ago, Cruvimaster said:

It's interesting to think that the developers had three months to design the CK and now they will have about three weeks (mere guess) to make some adjustments to make it better. I'm curious to see what they do. If they will do something, of course.

I think the foundation is solid enough that making some tweaks shouldn't be tooo difficult. Obviously they're still probably working hard, but they've gone in the right direction imo

[ADM]

9 minutes ago, GreenBowers said:

I think the foundation is solid enough that making some tweaks shouldn't be tooo difficult. Obviously they're still probably working hard, but they've gone in the right direction imo

From my view, I don't understand how you can find this solid or going anywhere right unless you were never introduced to old Crab King and you purely see this as a new boss. In which case I could get it but still disagree. To me he is now a poor pack of patchwork to just make him easier, with stuff taken from the Frostjaw which makes the presentation horrible and adds lots of problems that seemingly cannot be fixed, unless they pull backward on so many ideas. There's more to fix than just this "hold F" situation, the whole is unproductive.

[Mike23Ua]

24 minutes ago, ADM said:

From my view, I don't understand how you can find this solid or going anywhere right unless you were never introduced to old Crab King and you purely see this as a new boss. In which case I could get it but still disagree. To me he is now a poor pack of patchwork to just make him easier, with stuff taken from the Frostjaw which makes the presentation horrible and adds lots of problems that seemingly cannot be fixed, unless they pull backward on so many ideas. There's more to fix than just this "hold F" situation, the whole is unproductive.

Wasn’t crab kings loot trash??? Isn’t it still trash??? And wasn’t the only reason to EVER fight it to complete pearls quest and progress your games story to the point of unlocking new world wide global content changes?

IF crab king was like Misery Toadstool (obscure, requiring a specific resource or action from the player, only in the game as a completely optional raid boss challenge etc..) I’d understand people wanting him being more difficult.

But I don’t think anyone ever seriously fought Crab King for a fun or challenging boss fight, he’s the AG of the surface world.. aka “Mini-Boss before True Boss”

[chaosmonkey]

7 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Wasn’t crab kings loot trash??? Isn’t it still trash???

The bumpers are actually really good. The shells are nice for decorations. The bottles are (too few) but a very welcome drop for treasure hunting.

It is a bit odd that he drops the trident recipe but no materials for a trident, or even a whole strident trident.

[ADM]

11 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Wasn’t crab kings loot trash??? Isn’t it still trash??? And wasn’t the only reason to EVER fight it to complete pearls quest and progress your games story to the point of unlocking new world wide global content changes?

IF crab king was like Misery Toadstool (obscure, requiring a specific resource or action from the player, only in the game as a completely optional raid boss challenge etc..) I’d understand people wanting him being more difficult.

But I don’t think anyone ever seriously fought Crab King for a fun or challenging boss fight, he’s the AG of the surface world.. aka “Mini-Boss before True Boss”

I'm not sure what you try to imply but I haven't covered the question of loot because we all know the answer to that, undoubtedly. Personally I always repeated the CK fight post getting the altar but only because I liked him, of course in my list of priorities it never figured so it's not before a while but anytime I have little to do I'd fight him, solo or with a few friends, they've learned to like it.

(my worlds typically last over 2000+ days if that's useful data, I generally stop when nobody else wants to play on it because I don't like to play all by myself)

[GreenBowers]

56 minutes ago, ADM said:

From my view, I don't understand how you can find this solid or going anywhere right unless you were never introduced to old Crab King and you purely see this as a new boss. In which case I could get it but still disagree. To me he is now a poor pack of patchwork to just make him easier, with stuff taken from the Frostjaw which makes the presentation horrible and adds lots of problems that seemingly cannot be fixed, unless they pull backward on so many ideas. There's more to fix than just this "hold F" situation, the whole is unproductive.

Do not dismiss my opinion and say I must be uninformed.

[Szczuku]

9 minutes ago, GreenBowers said:

Do not dismiss my opinion and say I must be uninformed.

Ain't you the guy that dismisses others' opinions if they're not 'constructive criticism' enough?

[ADM]

16 minutes ago, GreenBowers said:

Do not dismiss my opinion and say I must be uninformed.

You’re free to disagree with anyone as long you’re in your right so I’ll just do it because I don’t agree with you that’s really just that. But I’m polite with it.

[GreenBowers]

Just now, Szczuku said:

Ain't you the guy that dismisses others' opinions if they're not 'constructive criticism' enough?

Dunno where the hell this came from. Im just against people whining for the sake of whining without providing any ideas, during a beta period where you give feedback 

1 minute ago, ADM said:

You’re free to disagree with anyone as long you’re in your right so I’ll just do it because I don’t agree with you that’s really just that. But I’m polite with it.

I appreciate you being polite about it. I just disliked my entire argument being summarized as "oh you must have never interacted with the old crab king if you like this rework"

3 minutes ago, Szczuku said:

Ain't you the guy that dismisses others' opinions if they're not 'constructive criticism' enough?

Oh Youre one of the guys suggesting to remove peoples abilities to play how they want because you disapprove of it

[ADM]

Buy yeah I'm sorry this topic is escalating to this and that you felt dismissed, @GreenBowers. That isn’t productive to any of our diverging goals regarding CK so I prefer we all drop that there.

Personally I don't have further feedback or insight to provide regarding the boss anyway.

[GreenBowers]

Im sorry for getting heated too, ive had a lot of frustrations over crab king so i just really want this rework to not flop. Im overly defensive about it though, i get worked up too easily ;-; . I am sorry that the boss isnt one you enjoy/remember now though.

I made a big thread going over my own ideas on how to fix it. The main one being to return the geyser attack because genuinely i dont think the fight can function without it

[Mike23Ua]

16 minutes ago, ADM said:

Buy yeah I'm sorry this topic is escalating to this and that you felt dismissed, @GreenBowers. That isn’t productive to any of our diverging goals regarding CK so I prefer we all drop that there.

Personally I don't have further feedback or insight to provide regarding the boss anyway.

Crab King is actually a Unique boss, he’s one of the very few that you can adjust the difficulty for by changing certain aspects about the fight.

He has the largest degree over this by what you opt to socket into him determines how the fight will go down.

There are other bosses that do this, but to a significantly lesser degree, the one that comes immediately to mind is Eye of Terror to Twins of Terror.

But it isn’t on the same level and scale as Crab King, with CK you can change many individual layers of his fight.

So my question is a simple one: If people actually for whatever reason enjoyed Pre-Rework Crab King, and Do not enjoy the current newer version.. why not have both?

TL:DR- Socket all Blue Gems for the Old Boat Combat fight, Socket all Reds for Current Land Island Segments. Etc..

Crab King is the one and currently only boss in the game that could, and by all means should.. have that level of control over what type of “fight” your opting into.

[GreenBowers]

3 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

TL:DR- Socket all Blue Gems for the Old Boat Combat fight, Socket all Reds for Current Land Island Segments. Etc..

Crab King is the one and currently only boss in the game that could, and by all means should.. have that level of control over what type of “fight” your opting into.

I do think its a neat idea that could be interesting, but I feel like it would have to be something else that's socketed as to not muddy the mechanics currently involved, like maybe a moon rock idol, or something.

[mr. brj]

6 hours ago, ADM said:

For starter, and the most important in my heart, is that there was nothing like Crab King elsewhere, no amount of bosses and enemies in the franchise were showing (or ever will from now on...) combat features like his battle. Fighting a boss with full health, with no need for defensive equipment leaving room for all the utility you can wish for is so unique, it's not just a possibility like elsewhere but a suggestion you're not often given, on all slots. It's a fight for your hull, not your HPs. Healing, and dodging is beautifully transferred over the ship with as much tenseness as it would be if you took the hit directly. And you can tank with your boat, then repair, or place another (now good luck with that... ice everywhere), or use rowing momentum to simulate kiting as claws chase you, I always loved that the moment I understood. And it took me time to understand, and appreciate it !

Because of the uniqueness, again. When faced fair and square the first time it's a reset of your combat understanding. It's like being a newbie wondering how the hell are we supposed to avoid Deerclops' attacks as it demolish a base, not even considering fighting back, just not getting hit feels infeasible and you might get angry at this actually. After hundreds of hours in DST, it'll happen to you again against CK, it's a reflection of our humble beginnings and confusion.

I have never seen anyone describe my appreciation towards the uniqueness of a boss this beautifully so I just wanted to say thank you and support your post with another one. I always accepted that Crab King being one of my favorite bosses would be a letdown for me in the future. I just never expected the letdown to be this huge.

6 hours ago, ADM said:

Easiness came at a cost of design. This rework only makes me think that whoever worked on it didn't ever fight the original CK and threw it away instead of looking to perfect him. That's a sad sight.

Another point I want to add to this. Even if whoever it was that worked on the new CK managed to fight and beat the original, I still don't see how they simply went with the decision of outright scrapping someone else's design, and how the team even agreed with it. This isn't the first time a drastic change like this has happened and, with all due respect to the developer team, I don't think it is a wise move to scrap someone else's work without first putting the effort towards understanding the idea behind it. Sorry for the salt but I really had to get this one out.

[arubaro]

5 hours ago, GreenBowers said:

Do not dismiss my opinion and say I must be uninformed.

But he is right...

The new CK has cool ideas that could be added to the old one but they removed the good parts of him 

As ADM said, all the mechanics he has contradic themselves since one atack/skill dismisses the previous one which makes no sense. Also the fight is barely less static than the boring ice staff method with the additional problem of removing other fun methods like rowing.

They could simply change some stuff about the old claws, some stats nerfs and added some variety of atacks like the new turrets and CK would be really fun. Instead they removed what made him unique and the cool geyser atack 

I disagree with adm about of making him a full boat centered fight again because was weird to see him defenseless against simple bees but a mix of taking care of the boat and your character (rowing to evade geysers and kitting to evade less dumb claws atacks would be perfect)

I think klei should revisit old CK and try to bring the sailing method to this new CK while fixing the mess of his atacks removing each other mechanics 

[Theukon-dos]

Having seen you talk about it so much, I did try to fight Crab King on his lonesome to get a feel for it. It did strike me as somewhat over hated, but I need to be honest chief. I don't get it.

I will say, I can see the spark of what you're talking about. In the first part of the fight where you're sailing around CK, using your boat's momentum to dodge guysers while attacking him. Is actually pretty damn fun. But then the claws show up and ruin everything.

I'm sorry. But making a boss' entire gimmick that it pins you down to hit you with super powerful attacks is objectively an awful idea. I'm not opposed to that as a concept. Especially as a particularly powerful attack to give the players a spike in adrenaline. But as effectively the only thing CK does? That's gonna be a no thanks from me chief.

The claws themselves are just to bulky and respawn to fast. Once they spawned in, it was nearly impossible for me to get any hits in because the claws would just respawn a few seconds after I smashed 'em up.

And that might have been manageable if I didn't also have to worry about CK healing. That man heals aggressively. And not only that, unlike Ancient Fuelweaver where; once he starts healing it's really the only thing he does, giving you time to take out his shadow hands and pop the woven shadows; You still have to deal with the claws clamping down on your boat.

 

Also, keep in mind where you're supposed to fight Crab King. Yes, he's somewhat far in the game. But he's also only a stepping stone to the Celestial Champion. Thematically, he should be equivalent to the Ancient Guardian or Shadow Pieces. But mechanically difficulty wise it's a lot closer to Ancient Fuelweaver. Which is also why I'm slightly confused about your comment on peopel not fighting CK without pearl. That would be light fighting only 2 out of the three shadow pieces.

 

All that being said, I do agree that Klei probably over-corrected with their rework. "Hold F" definitly isn't a particularly engaging fight. Admitedly I've not played with the Klei rework of the fight myself yet. But from what I've seen, I still think Crab King peaked with @O_Atoba_Azul's rework. Doubling down on the nautical aspect of the fight. Hell, I'm pretty sure that rework doesn't even bung up the existing stratagies like Klei's does. In theory, everything you can do against vanilla CK still works against them. Just more effectively sense breaking the claws damages CK and most of his attacks are less punishing.

 

 

[ADM]

7 hours ago, arubaro said:

I disagree with adm about of making him a full boat centered fight again because was weird to see him defenseless against simple bees but a mix of taking care of the boat and your character (rowing to evade geysers and kitting to evade less dumb claws atacks would be perfect)

The way I'd go with this would be to make these small flying mobs sink when frozen over water but that'd be the last thing to look into until the boss becomes generally fine.

[ADM]

7 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

Snip

Great to know that you gave it a go while there's still time , and wrote about it. And frankly, like anyone that is going to attempt that, you've crossed the line going from The Fun Zone, to Where The Problems Begin, like me. There's some critics I can have about old Crab King and you've brought some of them in that post. That's where the rework should have looked into by making claws health less ridiculous to the average non-fighter characters, give some time to players instead of the spell-into-healing... and sure there's more to rebalance + bugs to fixes.

Still at any rate it's manageable and gets more fun when you develop the right strat for it. It's not gonna be on anyone's first attempt, or second, depends how much you look into it but I absolutely don't want CK to just sit there with 2 viable yet obscure strategies players struggle to figure by playing the game normally. If it's like that it's because of the game seafaring balance. And the changes done by Atoba in that rework were amazing except for the different geyser attack I'd say, very jumbled but the rest is fantastic.

[Gameplayer143]

22 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Wasn’t crab kings loot trash??? Isn’t it still trash??? And wasn’t the only reason to EVER fight it to complete pearls quest and progress your games story to the point of unlocking new world wide global content changes?

IF crab king was like Misery Toadstool (obscure, requiring a specific resource or action from the player, only in the game as a completely optional raid boss challenge etc..) I’d understand people wanting him being more difficult.

But I don’t think anyone ever seriously fought Crab King for a fun or challenging boss fight, he’s the AG of the surface world.. aka “Mini-Boss before True Boss”

I mean the difference between Crab King and Ancient Guardian is that Ancient Guardian is actually fun to fight.

[grm9]

2 minutes ago, Gameplayer143 said:

I mean the difference between Crab King and Ancient Guardian is that Ancient Guardian is actually fun to fight

saying that is pointless, imo both new and old AG are really boring and old CK was fun

[Gameplayer143]

Just now, grm9 said:

saying that is pointless, imo both new and old AG are really boring and old CK was fun

Hard disagree. Reworked AG is a much better boss fight. There's more to react to him and strategic movement behind pillars and timing when to move. The shadow tentacles offer a random element to the boss fight to keep your ears and eyes out for to be careful around. Also the likely hood you might fight Ancient Guardian without a starcaller staff or willows fireball offers another fun challenge with light and getting as much damage on him when the lightbulbs are still lit up.

[grm9]

Just now, Gameplayer143 said:

Hard disagree. Reworked AG is a much better boss fight. There's more to react to him and strategic movement behind pillars and timing when to move. The shadow tentacles offer a random element to the boss fight to keep your ears and eyes out for to be careful around. Also the likely hood you might fight Ancient Guardian without a starcaller staff or willows fireball offers another fun challenge with light and getting as much damage on him when the lightbulbs are still lit up

hiding behind rocks isn't much fun, you can optimize amount of hits before going away but that isn't nearly as fun as dealing with CK and shadow tentacles just require you to move away after you see them