(ONLY Wilson fans and mains interact. And Klei devs too if there is any want to add reason.) Let's talk about the injustice of Wilson's skill tree.

[Anis5240]

(No, I DO NOT want to see people making funny "but torch toss is so OP" memes in here, that joke gets old real fast.)

So, let's start, shall we?

Obviously, this was such a big gripe it's not even funny. Wilson's skill tree is over a year old yet Klei STILL didn't want to fix it, especially the absolute mediocrity of the torch tree. Why?

The more I looked into his tree, it's clear that Wilson could have more options, more areas to explore while still remaining true to his character. After all, isn't that why you made this whole skill tree shenanigans in the first place, Klei? To keep the default DS Wilson still in the game, but also having QoL stuff to help him out remaining relevant in long-term worlds?

The torch tree absolutely sucks: needing 7 points to make it viable was real stupid, so why not replacing it with the more generalized light sources tree?

The transmutation tree could use a few more items in each node, not just one type and its reverse.

The beard tree is fine at best, but could be condensed in my opinion.

And of course, I got to bring this to attention: Why even asking for a torch tree rework is considered "powercreep"???

Now you may think I'm slandering Klei at this point but NO. I HAVE THE PROOF, AND IT WAS IN THE STREAM FROM FEBRUARY THIS YEAR.

How exactly is asking for a improvement is considered as such overpowered thing?

Willow is just the 2nd character from the list, yet she can spam discount Star Caller's light by just her lighter perks and tons of embers. That simply invalidates the threat from winter, sanity and the night and can even be accessed on day ONE if one had played her long enough. Isn't this already such a drastic change to Willow??? And of course, we don't even know where do those embers coming from to help her, because Klei DID NOT GIVE such explanation. Equating her, a firestarter to a witch barely makes any sense as well.

And so, here is what I had worked on for Wilson's improved skill tree concept. It's not much, but it's honest work, and I intended to make Wilson in line as the most experienced survivor among the other characters, as per the storyline.

Feel free to give comments/other suggestions.  A bonus for me would be custom animations for Wilson's transmutes.

As a final note, I only have one thing to say.

If Klei continues to be satisfied by such mediocre works, then it's just a matter of time before they will lose players. We Wilson mains may be just a miniscule drop among the sea of DST players, but putting us and our favorite character in such disgrace really stings our heart, Klei.

Even just a "We may consider looking into it in the future" is more than enough to soothe us.

That's all, and thank you for reading.

[Echsrick]

what i think is stupid is the "makin something bad intentionaly" like....thats litteraly a TERRIBLE thing to do like ever no matter what, you litteraly say that its worthless filler to make it appear bigger then it actualy is, there probably a term for that i dont know but its just that

[Wormboi]

The thing I dont get is that they wont change wilson's skill tree for balancing reasons... but then they change some of wormwoods skill tree due to backlash.

[AliceShiki]

1 hour ago, Anis5240 said:

And of course, I got to bring this to attention: Why even asking for a torch tree rework is considered "powercreep"???

Now you may think I'm slandering Klei at this point but NO. I HAVE THE PROOF, AND IT WAS IN THE STREAM FROM FEBRUARY THIS YEAR.

Based on what I heard from the video you linked, it seems like they didn't say improving torch would be an overpowered thing, but more like they were wary of feature powercreep in general, as that's something that just naturally comes to games with ongoing development, and it's something they have to fight against by default... Which is why they went on to say how Willow got a strong skill tree, while Wolfgang got a super underwhelming skill tree, because Willow was very weak, while Wolfgang was very strong.

Okay, taking that point aside, and commenting on the skill tree itself... I mostly am pretty happy with what the skill tree is like right now, but I don't disagree that there is some room for improvement.

The two big things I can think of would be condensing the torch and beard skill trees into 4 slots each instead of 7, which would open up 6 slots for newer skills.

Now, what to make with those 6 skill slots would be the tricky part... You'd need to make it something simple, that doesn't really do much to change the character (to keep up with dev vision to what they wanted for Wilson's skill tree), while also being interesting enough to make them warrant using.

I liked your idea of Prototypes restoring more sanity, but I have a hard time thinking of other 2 skills this could naturally branch into to make a natural progression... Unless you wanted to go with Prototypes give 25% more sanity; 40% more sanity ; 50% more sanity as levels 1, 2 and 3.

I don't think Healing is a terrible idea to try focusing on either, but it's a bit hard to think of concepts for it that would feel appropriate for a very simple character... I can imagine something like... "Telltale Hearts cost 10 less HP to be crafted", but then I'm not sure what would the other ideas be... Maybe "Booster Shots requires 2 less Rot to be crafted" and "Healing Salves heal 5 more HP" or something?

It's honestly pretty hard to think of improvements to Wilson's skill tree that keep up with the devs' vision for what the skill tree was meant to be like.

I don't think most of your ideas are bad in a vacuum, but I don't think they fit into the devs' goals for Wilson, so I don't think they're very realistic suggestions... Though well, the devs also said in the clip you shared that even reworking torch skill tree is unlikely to happen, so... I guess it doesn't hurt to discuss things and brainstorm things. Worst that can happen is nothing, after all~

[Mike23Ua]

23 minutes ago, Echsrick said:

what i think is stupid is the "makin something bad intentionaly" like....thats litteraly a TERRIBLE thing to do like ever no matter what, you litteraly say that its worthless filler to make it appear bigger then it actualy is, there probably a term for that i dont know but its just that

The Term is Wes.

*takes off his hat & takes a bow*

[paodocevoante1]

1 hour ago, Anis5240 said:

(No, I DO NOT want to see people making funny "but torch toss is so OP" memes in here, that joke gets old real fast.)

So, let's start, shall we?

Obviously, this was such a big gripe it's not even funny. Wilson's skill tree is over a year old yet Klei STILL didn't want to fix it, especially the absolute mediocrity of the torch tree. Why?

The more I looked into his tree, it's clear that Wilson could have more options, more areas to explore while still remaining true to his character. After all, isn't that why you made this whole skill tree shenanigans in the first place, Klei? To keep the default DS Wilson still in the game, but also having QoL stuff to help him out remaining relevant in long-term worlds?

The torch tree absolutely sucks: needing 7 points to make it viable was real stupid, so why not replacing it with the more generalized light sources tree?

The transmutation tree could use a few more items in each node, not just one type and its reverse.

The beard tree is fine at best, but could be condensed in my opinion.

And of course, I got to bring this to attention: Why even asking for a torch tree rework is considered "powercreep"???

Now you may think I'm slandering Klei at this point but NO. I HAVE THE PROOF, AND IT WAS IN THE STREAM FROM FEBRUARY THIS YEAR.

 

How exactly is asking for a improvement is considered as such overpowered thing?

Willow is just the 2nd character from the list, yet she can spam discount Star Caller's light by just her lighter perks and tons of embers. That simply invalidates the threat from winter, sanity and the night and can even be accessed on day ONE if one had played her long enough. Isn't this already such a drastic change to Willow??? And of course, we don't even know where do those embers coming from to help her, because Klei DID NOT GIVE such explanation. Equating her, a firestarter to a witch barely makes any sense as well.

And so, here is what I had worked on for Wilson's improved skill tree concept. It's not much, but it's honest work, and I intended to make Wilson in line as the most experienced survivor among the other characters, as per the storyline.

Feel free to give comments/other suggestions.  A bonus for me would be custom animations for Wilson's transmutes.

As a final note, I only have one thing to say.

If Klei continues to be satisfied by such mediocre works, then it's just a matter of time before they will lose players. We Wilson mains may be just a miniscule drop among the sea of DST players, but putting us and our favorite character in such disgrace really stings our heart, Klei.

Even just a "We may consider looking into it in the future" is more than enough to soothe us.

That's all, and thank you for readi

Torch toss is so op

[BezKa]

Before Wilson's rework, there was a lot of discussion of whether he should even have one, from my perspective the opinions varied between "single perk (beard) average stats is the best because base character and default way to play the game/tutorial character without complications", "story progression therefore become more powerful", "turn him into a proper tutorial character that will explain game mechanics with his perks", "more powerful in general to help new players" (as far as I can recall, this is suvjective because I did not read every single thread and post) and Klei settled for the worst system ever added to this game (skill tress in general).

His skills lean into the tutorial stuff, "brighter torch" is exactly the kind of upgrade I would expect for a new player that died during first few nights and thinks investing skillpoints into light will help them with the game. Transmutation is the "idk where to get the item I need but I can make it from other items" solution for players who haven't explored the game too well yet or are not ready to take certain risks (doubling as resource mill for the megabasers). And beard that gives temperature protection, something most players will have trouble with during their first winter. And then the most basic lunar and shadow powers you can come up with that somehow fit the theme (even though Wilson craves knowledge more than anything, not tranforming rocks afaik)

No wonder most people find his skills to be lacking. They are, on purpose. Which would be honestly fine, if he were the only character with a skill tree. After all, he did not get a rework. But we see what incredible stuff other characters are getting (plant crafting!!! LOCKED!!! BEHIND DLC CHARACTER!!! (not trying to call anything pay2win. But we've hoped for this for ages and it ends up in a skill tree. Someone hug me.)) and it's clear Wilson has basically nothing in comparison. And that it was intended, so I doubt we'll see much change, unless devs change their minds about their approach, but at that point they should just get rid of skill trees completely.

[Anis5240]

6 minutes ago, BezKa said:

the opinions varied between "single perk (beard) average stats

Yes, like the beard perks somehow fit Wilson even if it's not intentional. The only wrong thing I had with it is just the 3 nodes for insulation/growth. A.k.a the same style as the torch tree. It could be condensed to just 2 nodes and it'll be fine. And besides, beard storage is such a fun thing to have. Keeping the extra meat items away from being attacked by bunnymen is so funny yet fits in the way of them going "Oh wow, we have a beard man here too; let's not disturb him" 

1 hour ago, Wormboi said:

but then they change some of wormwoods skill tree due to backlash

gotta make the money worth the character hur dur

(even if you can just get him for free via spools)

[Notecja]

Klei: we gonna listen to people this year.

Also Klei:

[BezKa]

4 minutes ago, Anis5240 said:

Snip

I honestly only meant the original beard perk, where you passively accumulate insulation and get a bit of a resource if you trade it in. But I do like the holding stuff in your beard skill, it's funny and I never looked at bunnymen ignoring it like that, that perspective makes it 10 times better

[Anis5240]

4 minutes ago, SSneaky said:

All to avoid that darn powercreep amiright lads

I honestly DON'T EVEN KNOW how to describe my disbelief when they said that.

HOW IS A TORCH TREE REWORK CONSIDERED AS POWERCREEP????

And mind you, I didn't even said Wilson's whole skill tree. Just the torch tree.

If Klei somehow got low creative brain power after doing Maxwell's rework... then it's just stupid as hell.

[Maxposting]

4 minutes ago, Anis5240 said:

HOW IS A TORCH TREE REWORK CONSIDERED AS POWERCREEP????

i think they just fumbled it on the stream (that happens), i think you're being heated up after letting it fester for a year

yeah, a change would be nice, but at the same time i dont think its cool to get angry like this

[Anis5240]

1 minute ago, Maxposting said:

i think you're being heated up after letting it fester for a year

yeah, a change would be nice, but at the same time i dont think its cool to get angry like this

The thing is, Klei being silent is not good. Plenty of Wilson players already said the torch tree is basically filler. It's an eyesore. Might as well not exist and it won't change a thing.

Why can Wormwood's skill tree be fixed, even if it's just about 6 months after the initial release? Why not Wilson's? Are they simply not aware of such issues? No, that can't be. So really, the "why" is a must to ask.

The other characters' skill trees also have issues, but not as much as Wilson's. Wolfgang's is QoL stuff and the 3-node planar damage perk for each affinity still gets people riling over how boring it was. Woodie's Lunar Renegade perk basically removes all his full moon/moonstorm transformation downside and now he's just Wilson but better.

Klei applying such cheap Band-Aids to fix problems like "how can we salvage this character for post-rift" is NOT GOOD. This "just accept what it is" mentality won't do people good later on. 

[Wormboi]

12 minutes ago, Anis5240 said:

The thing is, Klei being silent is not good. Plenty of Wilson players already said the torch tree is basically filler. It's an eyesore. Might as well not exist and it won't change a thing.

Why can Wormwood's skill tree be fixed, even if it's just about 6 months after the initial release? Why not Wilson's? Are they simply not aware of such issues? No, that can't be. So really, the "why" is a must to ask.

The other characters' skill trees also have issues, but not as much as Wilson's. Wolfgang's is QoL stuff and the 3-node planar damage perk for each affinity still gets people riling over how boring it was. Woodie's Lunar Renegade perk basically removes all his full moon/moonstorm transformation downside and now he's just Wilson but better.

Klei applying such cheap Band-Aids to fix problems like "how can we salvage this character for post-rift" is NOT GOOD. This "just accept what it is" mentality won't do people good later on. 

another skill tree thats similar to the touch skill is wigfired's beefalo skills. They dont fit her play style at all.

[Anis5240]

15 minutes ago, SSneaky said:

able to refuel her lighter with embers

If she can have a refuelable lighter,  why shouldn't Wilson get refuelable torch via adding twigs/grass? If Klei somehow is determined to keep the torch tree in name, why not expand it to other, different types of torch? Look at how many people suggesting for refuelable torch or endothermic torch. I personally think a torch toss that can gradually set things on fire is a cool thing to have, considering how the "torch sticks right up after thrown" trope can be played in so many ways. And besides, able to light up Crystal Deerclops on fire via thrown torch is such a style (and saving on fire staff uses too lmao)

8 minutes ago, Wormboi said:

wigfired's beefalo skills. They dont fit her play style at all.

Truly. As many, many years of DST shorts have shown; even in her own short, Wigfrid never even rode a beefalo, or any other steed. Like I get she's an actress first and foremost (and how even a performance wanna set up a horse on stage lel) but still. She shone best when fighting on foot. What's the thrill of fight if the beefalo does it all? The knockback beefalo saddle is a decent attempt to make beefalo viable in late game but why should such item is locked behind a character?

To be honest, I have soooooo many questions about Klei's questionable reasoning and such but at this point the "Klei moments" are too many it's not even countable lmao.

[Wormboi]

8 minutes ago, SSneaky said:

The one good skill from the beefalo tree is the one where she slowly gets up to 50 inspiration.

Mind you this increase is enough for you to have 1 battle song active permanently.

Imo there should atleast be a skill that gives beefalos wigfrid's +25% damage modifier.

Perhaps in favor of making the planar defense skill base kit.

I feel like the beefalo skill tree should've focus on rider beef than ordinary since thats the only one she befits from.

[Anis5240]

14 minutes ago, SSneaky said:

Mind you this increase is enough for you to have 1 battle song active permanently.

Imo there should atleast be a skill that gives beefalos wigfrid's +25% damage modifier.

And then people wonder why some characters are more favored compared to others /s

But seriously, Klei is such a mixed bag these days. Even with the next update's preview a few days ago; even if some parts of it is good, the ocean is still greatly empty whatsoever. The marotters' dens being circular already throws me off.

Like just look at the difference between SW ocean and DST ocean. SW ocean is more lively with various mobs. You get the same amount of threats whether on land or in sea in SW, especially with the Crocodogs. Meanwhile in DST, the threats are just cookie cutters (that are tied to salt formations only), rockjaws (truly obnoxious in every way) and monkey raids (which you can just let them be by letting them steal your unimportant items/not sailing too closely to Moon Quay).

Wurt getting mosquito-related items is also weird as hell. Why even the need for discount bee mines via mosquitoes? They do much less damage compared to bees it's not even funny.

[Frosty_Mentos]

Willow and Wilson power difference is like night and day - Willow having very high security in survival and damage output while Wilson is at best just a bit more resourceful.

Wilson though it happened that he just kinda became a swap character either intentionally or not, it served him injustice for not having been expanded upon in more exciting ways, but also the reason is that they wanted him to stay bland.

As first character that got a skill tree it kinda sucks that your powers are just change gem types and three slots of extra storage when his competitors are gonna be way more powerful overall. Now that Winona is getting new skill tree, she will be a little more active in her gameplay even for a swap character.

You know what could improve? In game base items you can craft, unconventional weapons like bee mines and blowdarts, toothtraps but maybe even better - he has science to back him to some regard, right? I feel like he could get higher power in upgrades and improvements to do more work than before.

[Anis5240]

14 minutes ago, Frosty_Mentos said:

I feel like he could get higher power in upgrades and improvements to do more work than before.

See now, I can see how it suits Wilson, but for this one I feel it's more Winona-esque. After all, she's the Handywoman; it definitely will feel weird if she won't have some tool efficiency.

14 minutes ago, Frosty_Mentos said:

Willow having very high security in survival and damage output while Wilson is at best just a bit more resourceful.

Indeed. How did Klei even correlate a lighter to a sanity-giving fireball was forever a mystery and THEY STILL WON'T SAY A THING ABOUT IT even after being asked multiple times. Like come on, Klei. Everyone feels embarrassed at some point; was it too hard to suck it up and apologize instead of giving players such false hopes?

It's also just really sad to see how Wilson's role fell off in recent years. In DS, he was a viable character pick because everyone else there had some major downsides that affect their gameplay. Meanwhile in DST, Klei somehow would go all their way out to remove characters' downsides, as seen with Woodie. Like, what even is the point after all that? They all will be just "Wilson but better".

[Anis5240]

36 minutes ago, SSneaky said:

throw that has the potential to do decent splash damage

So basically discount brightshade bombs. 

It certainly doesn't sound half as bad, but also not too interesting. Maybe make it more of a smoke bomb kind of thing. Send enemies into a haze for a moment (aka stunned) and the mosquitoes going for the kill.

That said, I find it funny how Klei made the moon shroom bait thing yet almost no one ever use it.

[Evelo]

Mmm. Yeah I have a fundamental disagreement with what was said in that clip. Willows is strong. but I at least, feel her skill set should not be strong but baseline changes to the character. Wilson's skill set is fine if everyone else has something of equivalent power level. But that isn't the case. Fix the base character (Willow/Winona/etc) then give minor boosts to other characters via their skill sets. Wilson's skill set was unique and interesting when it was initially out because no one else had it. It felt cool and different but not too powerful. A legitimate "refresh" to Wilson who has not changed since the conception of the game. (Granted there are some flaws with his tree imo mostly with transmutation but that is besides my over all point.)

So in summary. Wilson skillset is fine so long as the other characters have equivalent non-game changing bonuses. Sadly this is not the case as it stands, dramatically changing how individuals interact with the Constant depending on which skill set set is chosen. If I pick Willow, imo, I should feel like willow without still sets. But she doesnt. (Well kind of yes with bernie but before getting the buffs). If I pick Wilson, I want him to feel like wilson without the skill sets. Which he does.

Hope that makes sense. Justice for Wilson's Refresh is deserved.

[Mortalbane]

Wilson's skill tree would be fine (except torch), if others would get similar trees.
To make such trees, some characters had to be fixed first, like barely playable Willow or boring Winona.

By the time Klei got to Wilson's rework, they said - we will do no more reworks. Yeah, like all characters are great, no reworks needed =)
But reworks are still needed - and now they come in the form of skill trees. Strong characters get boring and useless skills, underwhelming characters get massive buffs.

Also, you can't fight power creep by creating it. How can 7 skills invested into torch (and lantern is still better and easily accessible) compare to a dwarf star, flamethrower, x2 melee damage, transforming into moose, having Abigail, and so on.
Oh, you say that at least Wendy is balanced by having 75% damage? Ooops, no she isn't, she has 115% now.

This is what happens when you try to copy and paste singleplayer DS characters and systems into multiplayer boss-fighting DST, and when you don't properly adjust everything with reworks. All that is now catching up to you (again), and with the current situation and approach giving Wilson a better skill tree is a must, because without it he is not any better than Willow without hers.

[Jakepeng99]

Winona and Wickerbottom have barely any downsides, but really powerful upsides (including Winona skilltree)

Willow's downside rarely matters and is easily countered, yet she is super powerful and diverse.

Woodie straight up has no downsides, yet has one of the best overall kits in the franchise for all stages of the game.

Maxwell's downside can be really ignorable, yet he is the strongest character in the franchise debatably.

Wilson also has no downsides. But has some of the worst (and kinda boring) upsides in the franchse.

 

If they want to solve powercreep, give character's downsides. Wormwood is one of the top rated characters, but not just because his downsides.

[Cheggf]

I like his skill tree :steamhappy:. Or, at least as much as I can like a skill tree.

[mkemal23]

2 hours ago, Jakepeng99 said:

If they want to solve powercreep, give character's downsides. Wormwood is one of the top rated characters, but not just because his downsides.

Instead of asking downsides for other characters, We should ask for Wilson Skill tree buffs.

I know we should ask for fixing the powercreep instead of adding more fuel to fire. But that ship has sailed long time ago. Klei either straight up ignores downsides (ex. Wigfrid's diet) or they just remove them with skill trees (Woodie's Transformation, Wormwood's regenation). I personally wouldn't be suprised if they let Wx78 was themselves to be waterproof in the next skill tree update.

The unfortunate part is, it sells. Flashy flamethrower skills, super strong abilies are just fun or cool looking. But the thing is, Wilson does not need them, he just needs some gameplay value.