The Hardest DST Challenge Ever Completed

[Uedo]

@grm9, @00petar00.

Guys, this multi-quoting is getting out of hand. I've given up on more threads than I can count because of it .... staaaaaap 

[00petar00]

18 minutes ago, grm9 said:

it isn't, the reason for why it is the way it is is entirely irrelevant, why do you even care about why is it that way instead of just what could you do about that?

You want to say that it is irrelevant when it makes no sense that it is so, the reason you keep repeating this is because it suits you.

It isn't irrelevant because bosses wouldn't ever be like this in DS.

21 minutes ago, grm9 said:

unfair means not by some sort of rules or unequal, bosses can't learn while players can so you'd need to nerf players and idk what rules are there, the reason for why it is that way is entirely irrelevant, would the boss become fair and better if klei would've made it that way because of wanting to make the game harder instead of multiplayer?

Games are made to be beaten and for most games it is so that anyone can do it within a reasonable timeframe.

Bosses would be completely different If they were designed for single player even If they difficulty was the same.

23 minutes ago, grm9 said:

they aren't, no weather pains fights aren't as hard as they seem

Where are your statistics on how many players can kill FW without weather pain or brightshade staff? You keep using this but can't back it up because players that can kill FW usually can barely do so with all the tools available to them.

24 minutes ago, grm9 said:

there are no issues with minions, why is it even specifically minions?

Because other mechanics can be dealt with by solo players and most bosses can be kited. There are exceptions to this like CK and Toadstool. 

26 minutes ago, grm9 said:

i meant that you'd be able to easily do BQ, dfly and toad during the 1st few days 1st try and get their loot much earlier without learning anything than you can now and it'd be boring to do them if they'd get turned into what you suggest

Most players can't do that and I am not wasting first autumn on toadstool, that is more of a lategame thing after all bosses are killed to build mushlights.

I haven't given any specific suggestions and only asked for specific mechanics to be replaced so how can you say that a boss would be boring If it was changed?

 

 

[grm9]

2 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

You want to say that it is irrelevant when it makes no sense that it is so, the reason you keep repeating this is because it suits you

no, because it's irrelevant, why did they make them that way changes nothing now

3 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

It isn't irrelevant because bosses wouldn't ever be like this in DS

they are the way they are, why were they made that way is irrelevant now

4 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

Games are made to be beaten and for most games it is so that anyone can do it within a reasonable timeframe

you overestimate how much time getting bunnymen/catapults/bees/flutes/ice staves/walls requires

5 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

Bosses would be completely different If they were designed for single player even If they difficulty was the same

why? they're really fun to fight solo atm

6 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

Where are your statistics on how many players can kill FW without weather pain or brightshade staff?

no statistics, i've just tried them before learning how to do it minimal gear and they weren't as bad, the worst part was FW deaggroing after you teleport sometimes

7 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

Because other mechanics can be dealt with by solo players and most bosses can be kited

these can be too

8 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

Most players can't do that

the point was that they'll become able to if they'll become as easy as daywalker

8 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

I am not wasting first autumn on toadstool

the point was that everyone'd be able to do that during 1st autumn 1st try

9 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

that is more of a lategame thing after all bosses are killed to build mushlights

i always kill toad during autumn/winter for fun

10 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

I haven't given any specific suggestions and only asked for specific mechanics to be replaced so how can you say that a boss would be boring If it was changed?

that's likely since you like new bosses and think that minions are bad

[Theukon-dos]

I feel like a large problem here is the assumption that just because a boss is doable solo means that it's automatically well-designed. Which simply isn't the case.

As an example, take the boss Bed of Chaos from the original dark souls. Did you know it's extremely easy to beat this boss? With precise aim and positioning, you can destroy her two roots with firebombs from the center of the arena and immedietly rush in to destroy her core.

Spoiler

 

Does this mean that Bed of Chaos is actually a good boss? No, obviously not. Everyone knows how atrocious this boss fight is. It's quite possibly THE worst boss in the entire franchise.

 

Likewise, just because there are strategies to reliably do the raid bosses doesn't mean that they're secretly good fights. Take Bee Queen as an example. Yes, there are strategies to separate her from her grumble bees. Sleep spam, fence maze, wall cross, ect. Or just spam a ton of bunny hutches to overwhelm her numbers with your own. I've even done these my self occasionally. But that doesn't make her a well-designed or fun fight.

In my experience and opinion, Bee Queen is a much more fun fight when she and her minions are given actual attack patterns. Places where the player is given an opening to attack her majesty instead of having to wrestle them from the game by force. Does it make the fight easier? In a sense, yes. But I don't think that's inherently a problem if the goal is to make the fight more reasonable to do solo.

[grm9]

4 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

I feel like a large problem here is the assumption that just because a boss is doable solo means that it's automatically well-designed

it isn't, read the discussion 1st

4 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

Places where the player is given an opening to attack her

going to it after screeches end during p3 and p4?

5 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

Sleep spam, fence maze, wall cross, ect.

the fun part is figuring out the strats, e.g. abigail, bramble husk, shadow prison, lunar fire, spell that ignites everything nearby, scare song, moose, merms, spiders etc. and some characters are better at strats that everyone can use e.g. wolfgang, wanda and warly at pan flute

[00petar00]

7 minutes ago, grm9 said:

they are the way they are, why were they made that way is irrelevant now

It is relevant for the discussion and no matter how many times you say it isn't it won't change but I'll stop discussing this further.

8 minutes ago, grm9 said:

you overestimate how much time getting bunnymen/catapults/bees/flutes/ice staves/walls requires

Using bunnymen to kill a boss for me doesn't make the fight fun but is only a solution to a terrible boss fight, same with walls for DF it is just avoiding bad minion summoning mechanic.

9 minutes ago, grm9 said:

no statistics, i've just tried them before learning how to do it minimal gear and they weren't as bad, the worst part was FW deaggroing after you teleport sometimes

Just because you find something easy it doesn't mean that everyone else will or that players even want to go that far with learning a boss fight.

11 minutes ago, grm9 said:

that's likely since you like new bosses and think that minions are bad

I don't like new bosses but I do think that they are better for solo players. I am comparing what I dislike less and it is new bosses.

11 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

In my experience and opinion, Bee Queen is a much more fun fight when she and her minions are given actual attack patterns. Places where the player is given an opening to attack her majesty instead of having to wrestle them from the game by force. Does it make the fight easier? In a sense, yes. But I don't think that's inherently a problem if the goal is to make the fight more reasonable to do solo.

I completely agree here, If we had a window of opportunity to deal damage grumble bees wouldn't be such a problem. I know that someone will quote and say that you can already do that by using cane and road but that is just avoiding the mechanic and is so boring.

[grm9]

4 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

It is relevant for the discussion and no matter how many times you say it isn't it won't change but I'll stop discussing this further

how is it relevant? what does it change? how does why they ended up being the way they are matter?

4 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

Using bunnymen to kill a boss for me doesn't make the fight fun but is only a solution to a terrible boss fight, same with walls for DF it is just avoiding bad minion summoning mechanic

that's what you can do if you don't want to learn or do anything that requires even slightly more effort like flute for p2 and a speedboost for p3 and p4 

5 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

Just because you find something easy it doesn't mean that everyone else will or that players even want to go that far with learning a boss fight

obviously, but no one else tries so idk

5 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

I don't like new bosses but I do think that they are better for solo players

that's why i think that your ideas would be worse

6 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

but that is just avoiding the mechanic and is so boring.

it isn't? staring at the boss after grumbles get back and before it does the next screech during p3 sucks but that's it

7 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

If we had a window of opportunity to deal damage grumble bees wouldn't be such a problem

you only need anything other than a speedboost for that during p2

[00petar00]

9 minutes ago, grm9 said:

hat's what you can do if you don't want to learn or do anything that requires even slightly more effort like flute for p2 and a speedboost for p3 and p4 

10 minutes ago, grm9 said:

you only need anything other than a speedboost for that during p2

I don't want to run back and forth, this isn't fun and it is avoiding the fight because a single player can't deal with grumble bees and BQ at the same time.

11 minutes ago, grm9 said:

obviously, but no one else tries so idk

So If "no one" else tries the boss should be changed.

 

[grm9]

3 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

So If "no one" else tries the boss should be changed

nah, the community should start looking for better strats if the strat that they found isn't fun, most people probably don't even know about that or at least never tried

6 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

it is avoiding the fight

so avoiding attacks is avoiding the fight? kiting is cheese confirmed?

6 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

because a single player can't deal with grumble bees and BQ at the same time

you can though, practically all characters have strats for that

7 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

I don't want to run back and forth

suggest making that part of the fight more fun instead of removing minions or just accept that it's a puzzle boss?

[Guille6785]

3 hours ago, Faintly Macabre said:

I find the game's combat just fundamentally uninteresting, and no amount of voluntary handicapping will change that. I know that, because I've played games where I do enjoy challenge runs, like low level Dark Souls playthroughs or rushing Hyrule Castle in BotW with nothing but your funny DLC shirt and a pot lid. But the only reason I enjoyed more challenging runs of those games is because there was something I found compelling about their combat in the first place. I don't want to take a few steps to the right more often in Dfly, I don't want to have even less room for error in Inventory Management As A Boss AFW, and I'm 99% sure torches instead of axes isn't going to make Toadstool any less of a time-wasting loot pinata.

I also have my fair share of souls challenge runs under my belt and I genuinely find DST's combat to be more interesting when its at its best (like with FW), there's way more depth to it even when it looks simple at a glance, souls combat is little more than just pressing a button when the developer intends you to so they can spoonfeed you an opening to press another button to do damage; its success lies in its simplicity but I don't know why it receives so much praise

54 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

I feel like a large problem here is the assumption that just because a boss is doable solo means that it's automatically well-designed. Which simply isn't the case.

nobody said this, this is a strawman

[00petar00]

42 minutes ago, grm9 said:

so avoiding attacks is avoiding the fight? kiting is cheese confirmed?

Kiting boss is fun because they may have different abilities and require different timings and you also you can decide if you want to be risky and deal as much damage as possible or hit the boss one less time before kiting to be safe.

Players just run from grumble bees in a straight line to use pan flute and run back to the boss, there's nothing unique to expect with grumble bees they always run to you and use their default melee attack. 

42 minutes ago, grm9 said:

suggest making that part of the fight more fun instead of removing minions or just accept that it's a puzzle boss?

You wouldn't accept any suggestions that make the boss fight easier when this must be the case with grumbles so no point in discussing it. I don't like minion summon boss mechanic in DST but minions can be bearable like woven shadows with FW this is only the case though because they have 1 HP.

[grm9]

5 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

Kiting boss is fun because they may have different abilities and require different timings and you also you can decide if you want to be risky and deal as much damage as possible or hit the boss one less time before kiting to be safe

not really, which boss is that? frostjaw and daywalker are countered by walking to the side and most other bosses are countered by walking away

6 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

Players just run from grumble bees in a straight line to use pan flute and run back to the boss

huh? you don't need to use flute, you can run through them by the end of the screech and go back to BQ to keep attacking it until they get back, a lot of doing nothing in between screeches during p3 but cd gets shortened during p4 and it's fine, gives you some time to get BQ closer to where it spawned from so you don't go too far away when getting away from grumbles and have BQ get deaggroed and spawn more grumbles

8 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

You wouldn't accept any suggestions that make the boss fight easier when this must be the case with grumbles so no point in discussing it

it could be harder and more fun if BQ does anything other than staring at you after grumbles come back after screeching during p3

12 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

I don't like minion summon boss mechanic in DST

why? what they're used for in case of BQ, dfly and FW isn't even related, FW heals if they get close enough and they can't attack you so you need to either kill them or prevent them from reaching him, dfly just spawns them so you have something to deal with other than itself and to enrage after they die, BQ forces you to figure out what to do during p2 since simply using a weapon doesn't work well and allows you to get them away so you can deal damage to it without anything other than a weapon or keep using the strat that you were using for p2

[MEATGOOD]

i beat this game in 2 second so pass me the talking stick

[Valase]

One actual question, I couldn't check the whole video, but what made you choose walter and not any of the more famous boss mulchers (Max, Wolf, Wanda)?

2 hours ago, Guille6785 said:

I also have my fair share of souls challenge runs under my belt and I genuinely find DST's combat to be more interesting when its at its best (like with FW), there's way more depth to it even when it looks simple at a glance, souls combat is little more than just pressing a button when the developer intends you to so they can spoonfeed you an opening to press another button to do damage; its success lies in its simplicity but I don't know why it receives so much praise

May I ask what is your opinion on CC?

I feel like he(it?*) is very unappreciated due the road that the player need to take before him. And I love that he is a boss with a "long" fight but also has a breathing room where you can check your equipment/health/insanity.

7 minutes ago, MEATGOOD said:

i beat this game in 2 second so pass me the talking stick

Charlie said that it is my turn with the talking stick.

[lowercase skye]

10 hours ago, Swiyss said:

(which should be acquired 90% atleast the first time you try it unless you have something going on for you, ykwim).

was this at all a necessary comment

[grm9]

1 hour ago, Valase said:

One actual question, I couldn't check the whole video, but what made you choose walter and not any of the more famous boss mulchers (Max, Wolf, Wanda)?

On 5/7/2024 at 10:15 AM, Guille6785 said:

I banned all characters with innate damage and speed multipliers (forcing me to do the entire run with measly 1x damage)

[Maxposting]

27 minutes ago, finn from human said:

was this at all a necessary comment

I'm too innocent for this, what does it mean 

[lowercase skye]

6 minutes ago, Maxposting said:

I'm too innocent for this, what does it mean 

"unless you have something going on for you, ykwim" aka "unless you're disabled (derogatory)"

[Maxposting]

yikes

[Guille6785]

1 hour ago, Valase said:

One actual question, I couldn't check the whole video, but what made you choose walter and not any of the more famous boss mulchers (Max, Wolf, Wanda)?

I was originally going to do the challenge as wolfgang before the rework (it's been in the works for that long), but I just thought it'd be interesting to limit myself to fight strategies that work for every character, and I'm not a big fan of stacking more than 2 speed boosts for a fight

1 hour ago, Valase said:

May I ask what is your opinion on CC?

I feel like he(it?*) is very unappreciated due the road that the player need to take before him. And I love that he is a boss with a "long" fight but also has a breathing room where you can check your equipment/health/insanity.

CC is fine overall, phase 1 and 2 are kinda one-dimensional and repetitive but I don't hate them to the same degree as the newer bosses that doubled down on that philosophy, while phase 3 is very reminiscent of the older bosses as a more positioning-based challenge that becomes progressively more complex the more items you take away

[Porkus]

Solo Bingusweaver

[Frosty_Mentos]

Personally, not a fan of spawning in items even if it is a challenge, but rules are made and people do whatever they want in the game, still congrats on beating this! As long as ya had fun I think that's all that matters.

[Guille6785]

3 minutes ago, Frosty_Mentos said:

Personally, not a fan of spawning in items even if it is a challenge, but rules are made and people do whatever they want in the game, still congrats on beating this! As long as ya had fun I think that's all that matters.

I actually just made it guaranteed via the loot table (a mod basically) but then the update came out and it reset the change I made and I didn't notice until I killed AG so I had to spawn it in instead

[Frosty_Mentos]

4 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

I actually just made it guaranteed via the loot table (a mod basically) but then the update came out and it reset the change I made and I didn't notice until I killed AG so I had to spawn it in instead

Yea, I mean, I get it. I'm the kind of person just to want to suffer if the RNGeesus doesn't bless and being put to think of different solutions when it doesn't work.

[JoeW]

There is a lot of rude behavior coming from forum regulars. Then, more rude comments in response. 

I don't want to have to keep locking threads because you all keep butting heads. 

If you don't like somebody else, put them on ignore and move on.

If you can't post politely, don't post.

If you have multiple warnings for being rude on threads, you're going to get a suspension, and if you have had one before it will be doubled. 

I really try not to have to take action and suspend/ban - but it's getting old guys.