When are we fixing the bosses?

[goldenpanda56]

I ran into an issue. I beat Deerclops, Eye of Terror, Moose/Goose, Antlion, Bearger, Klaus, and Ancient Guardian. I thought about what I should fight next, and I realized something...a lot of these raid bosses suck. Dragonfly is the next thing that I'm thinking about trying to beat, but other than that and the Shadow Pieces, the rest of the raid bosses suck minus the Celestial Guardian and maybe the Twins of Terror. I have never fought any of these bosses below, I'm just basing it off what I heard and the guides I've seen.

Malbatross - Garbage to find, garbage and not guaranteed loot, and a messy and boring fight.

Bee Queen - Decent drops and easily accessible, but the fight itself is a load of garbage. This game's combat is at its best when it utilizes kiting to its advantage, a boss with a bunch of summons that you can't kite no matter how hard you try even more so with the honey that slows you down, unsurprisingly sucks. Rework the fight, and I think she'll be great.

Crab King - The drops are garbage though I can understand it here because it's supposed to be a step toward the Celestial Champion and finding it is somewhat easy since most likely, you'll only really need to kill it after getting the Astral Detector. The problem is the boss fight itself, I like the concept of build you own boss, but instakills? Freeze attacks? Healing? Tons of health? In the Ocean? It's bad.

Ancient Fuelweaver - The drops are really good, and while finding it is hard, it's supposed to be hard, my only issue is that there's no clue telling the players to create a skeleton in the Atrium. The boss itself is bad as it's a combination of Bee Queen and Toadstool's problems, it stops you from kiting him like Bee Queen, with the bone cage though I can kind of forgive it here since you can use a Lazy Explorer to get out, but I believe the attack itself should just be removed and like Toadstool, he has invulnerability and healing, I don't mind when a boss has invulnerability and tries to heal every now and then because it makes the boss more dynamic, but similar to Toadstool, the problem is that he spams it constantly which just makes the boss fight more tedious.

Toadstool/Misery Toadstool - The health. Need I say more? Actually, yes there is a lot more to say, the fight itself isn't terrible on paper, dodging the mushrooms and trying to get as far away as possible when you have the spore thing on your head seems fun, add the ground pound to it and the fight is very dynamic. The problem stems from again, the health and as I mentioned in the Fuelweaver section, the defense increase from the trees, I actually like the idea of the mushroom trees and chopping them down to make him more vulnerable, but my god, he spams the attack way too much and when the fight already lasts so long because of the health, it's just really tedious and makes the fight unfun because it takes way too long. I think if you just reduce the health and make it so that he doesn't spam the mushroom trees, maybe add a couple more drops, it'll be a decent fight.

 

 

[Well-met]

1 minute ago, goldenpanda56 said:

I have never fought any of these bosses below, I'm just basing it off what I heard and the guides I've seen.

then you should hold your opinions until you have the proper experience to discuss this... "issue"

[00petar00]

I prefer the simpler design of older bosses compared to new ones that have more mechanics that are repetitive and don't allow you to kill the boss in as many different ways as old ones.

Dragonfly is so fun to fight solo If you use a wall/wall off lava ponds because there is no boss like it that requires the timing of kiting to be as good, any other boss you can decide not to try to hit it maximum amount of times and kite to be safe. Since I main Wanda this is one fight I like to use backstep watch for and it is also very fun since this clock is usually not that useful but it seems good for dragonfly and nightmare werepig.

Minions are the big problem because solo players are punished since it is a multiplayer game but veterans have deluded themselves into accepting this because of some sort of pride of being able to kill these bosses like dragonfly or bee queen without cheesing, there is skill to it and this may be fun to some people but I am very focused on being efficient as time is so important to me and I don't want to waste it so seeing a group of 2-3 people kill these bosses with such ease it really makes me not like these mechanics.

If claws didn't exist crab king would be so much more fun or if claws had really low hp and only 2 claws at a time could hook on your boat, why do we need to position the boat for the fight to only get 2 claws instead of 3?

Malbatross fits the theme of the ocean requiring fishing to be able to summon it instead of relying on luck in finding the boss but it is terrible since a lot of us don't like fishing and may want to kill the boss, it is too rare if you don't fish and even If you do it still takes a long time to find the spot and requires luck to summon.

Toadstool is quite boring and mechanics are one of the easiest ones compared to most bosses, health is the issue and that makes the fight annoying not hard, you just need to be prepared and with a few players this is so easy but solo players suffer like usual.

Multiplayer makes the game worse for me since bosses are designed for multiplayer but they are easily killed by a group of players that it doesn't make a difference like that one recent youtube video of was it 5-6 wolfgangs killing FW before the boss is even able to use any of the mechanics but solo player is going to have a much more difficult time and gather resources while they also need to practice fight.

I know that a lot of players are against health scaling based on players but that is literally the only reasonable solution since health has already been scaled up because it is multiplayer and the thing is that this may be selfish but I wouldn't even mind the current health of bosses if it was increased for multiplayer, I just don't want other players having an easy time because they are in a group since it makes me feel like I am wasting time playing solo.

[Mike23Ua]

1 hour ago, Well-met said:

then you should hold your opinions until you have the proper experience to discuss this... "issue"

This is where you and I agree to disagree, because the way I have ALWAYS seen it, same way KLEI has seen it in character downsides and step learning process- is that the game needs to be more accessible and enjoyable to a wider variety of player skill levels.

This is why the game has what some are calling “power creep” Woodie can optionally spec skills so he doesn’t enter instant starvation status or even transform during full moons anymore and that’s all because Klei wanted to make the characters easier to pick up play and enjoy without the added hassle of strong downsides.

Its why Wolfgang’s can now be mighty even while fully starving, and Wendy can endlessly summon Abigail without needing to wait a flower bloom out time.

My point is that the game is changing- And so should the skill threshold/Accessibility of its content.

this means that NO I absolutely do NOT need to have fought Misery Toadstool or Enraged Klaus 500 times to have an opinion about them.

[Swiyss]

My only real concern here is toadstool not guaranteed loot on regular form. Wormwoods new moonshroom interaction made misery even worse. I hope they adress this.

And crab king "solo" drops ofc. but then they would have to change shadow pieces drop also.

[grm9]

9 hours ago, goldenpanda56 said:

Bee Queen - Decent drops and easily accessible, but the fight itself is a load of garbage. This game's combat is at its best when it utilizes kiting to its advantage, a boss with a bunch of summons that you can't kite no matter how hard you try even more so with the honey that slows you down, unsurprisingly sucks. Rework the fight, and I think she'll be great

the point is that you're supposed to think about a solution about how to kill it, e.g. use pan flute or lunar fire or abigail or bramble husks or catapults instead of trying to kill it with only a weapon

9 hours ago, goldenpanda56 said:

Ancient Fuelweaver - The drops are really good, and while finding it is hard, it's supposed to be hard, my only issue is that there's no clue telling the players to create a skeleton in the Atrium. The boss itself is bad as it's a combination of Bee Queen and Toadstool's problems, it stops you from kiting him like Bee Queen, with the bone cage though I can kind of forgive it here since you can use a Lazy Explorer to get out, but I believe the attack itself should just be removed and like Toadstool, he has invulnerability and healing, I don't mind when a boss has invulnerability and tries to heal every now and then because it makes the boss more dynamic, but similar to Toadstool, the problem is that he spams it constantly which just makes the boss fight more tedious

stop trying to replace hard with tedious, it's just a hard and fun fight, you can dodge bone cage and prevent him from healing and make him vulnerable again, you can do FW with only a weapon, insanity and sanity food, so even if you don't like solving bosses as puzzles, FW is fun and what you want, you just haven't even tried fighting him

9 hours ago, goldenpanda56 said:

The problem is the boss fight itself, I like the concept of build you own boss, but instakills? Freeze attacks? Healing? Tons of health? In the Ocean? It's bad

it has reached the point of replacing hard with bad

9 hours ago, goldenpanda56 said:

trying to get as far away as possible when you have the spore thing on your head seems fun

wrong, it's best to drop them off near toad since even if you get 3 clouds around it, you can still hit it and that way there isn't a chance of trees spawning in clouds

9 hours ago, goldenpanda56 said:

I actually like the idea of the mushroom trees and chopping them down to make him more vulnerable, but my god, he spams the attack way too much and when the fight already lasts so long because of the health, it's just really tedious and makes the fight unfun because it takes way too long

you're supposed to figure out a solution e.g. chop a few of them and burn the rest and keep fighting toad with 20% absorption while they're burning or, if you don't want to do that, get glass axes or something

9 hours ago, goldenpanda56 said:

Toadstool/Misery Toadstool - The health

the only somewhat valid issue, i'd definitely not mind it getting reduced to like 30k or something

8 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

I just don't want other players having an easy time because they are in a group since it makes me feel like I am wasting time playing solo

that's selfish and pointless, why do you care about how hard is it for them?

8 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

veterans have deluded themselves into accepting this because of some sort of pride of being able to kill these bosses like dragonfly or bee queen without cheesing

no, some people simply like solving puzzles

8 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

if claws had really low hp

that'd be fine, could make them have 200 hp or so when pearled, probably more, or not change that assuming that they'll add perks for fighting to all characters through skill trees

[Frosty_Mentos]

To be frank, raid bosses suck. They aren't made to be fought alone but can still be which is contradictory of what their design logic is. Their design though sadly is mostly just very high health and spam of their abilities. They could remain formidable and buffed, but given the tools we have should have higher effect in better preparations.

Things that I think should be changed:

Armies take insane amount of damage quickly by them should have better armor protection of sorts

Scalemail should burn targets for a longer duration, making minions disabled for the amount of time they are on fire more and should have more durability. The item is generally thought as volatile and painful to use, or too scary to be used due to the costs and volatility rather. It's a three football helmets and one logsuit armor costing item, weird to see it's durability low when a thulecite suit has no abilities and has a lot more tankiness. Even marble armor often is more preferable in comparison along side with the crown.

Blow dart assortment is very weak, there could be some sorts of explosive charges you could make perhaps, or utilize magic and get magic gear that is less protective to actually do a lot more spell damage over melee.

If the game has raid bosses and events of fighting big enemies or something then we need proper reworks of bosses along side the gear we use. If characters are getting buffed I think the world getting more dangerous and more full of ancient cool loots and technology we could use to uncover to take down the big bads in more fun unique ways.

[Cheggf]

DFly is the boss that sucks, BQ & AFW are two of the best fights in the game. Toadstool is also really fun.

[arubaro]

Df sucks when you use walls, bq is one of the best bosses in the game for how much ways of killing her you have, toad has a lot of hp because you can hit maaany times before needing to kite or chop,  afw is one of the best bosses in the entire franchise and the difficulty is ajusted with the rewards you obtain

 

You should try the content before talking about ""fixing"" anything 

[00petar00]

17 hours ago, grm9 said:

the point is that you're supposed to think about a solution about how to kill it, e.g. use pan flute or lunar fire or abigail or bramble husks or catapults instead of trying to kill it with only a weapon

The point I am making is that bosses are so easy in a group while they are hard solo and that messes up with my brain because I don't like wasting time and try to be as efficient as possible.

I don't think you can bring up character perks (catapults) as a solution since it requires a specific character and I do believe that catapults should be available to all characters and Winona needs a complete rework.

17 hours ago, grm9 said:

that's selfish and pointless, why do you care about how hard is it for them?

It is somewhat selfish but how is it pointless? I care because they spend less time than me and that is enough. Why do I need to waste more resources and time to beat the same boss while they are made to be fought in a group and in group setting thet are a joke and don't even use abilities...

17 hours ago, grm9 said:

o, some people simply like solving puzzles

How does this translate to puzzles? Killing a boss as a solo player is much more difficult for no reason that you just accepted as default alternative compared to group play that they were designed for. Look at DS bosses HP and abilities and how much easier they are, that's what players want when playing solo but you can't really argue the difficulty of DS bosses being too easy because it leads to the same outcome in group play, why players like you argue this point is because you are veterans that practice boss fights and rollback often until you figure them out.

17 hours ago, grm9 said:

that'd be fine, could make them have 200 hp or so when pearled, probably more, or not change that assuming that they'll add perks for fighting to all characters through skill trees

The HP isn't the only problem why can crab king grab your boat with 3 claws and if you position your boat correctly its only 2? That makes a big difference for the fight and only experienced players know about it. I think that it should always be 2 claws at most and they should have lower HP and not every character needs to have perks for fighting but it is becoming more of an issue If they don't since such a big part of the game is fighting because klei decided to make it so.

15 hours ago, Frosty_Mentos said:

To be frank, raid bosses suck. They aren't made to be fought alone but can still be which is contradictory of what their design logic is. Their design though sadly is mostly just very high health and spam of their abilities. They could remain formidable and buffed, but given the tools we have should have higher effect in better preparations.

It isn't contradictory, that is the whole point of DST compared to DS you are supposed to play as a group and If you don't, you are punished.

15 hours ago, Frosty_Mentos said:

Things that I think should be changed:

Armies take insane amount of damage quickly by them should have better armor protection of sort

There should be no "armies" or mob summining from bosses that are made for multiplayer when a lot of players just want to have the single player experience. The balance would be to respawn bosses within 1-5 days, why do we need to wait 20 days and the bosses need to be so difficult? This would solve most problems and any player could kill the boss themself If they want the loot, the main argument veteran players (below 1% of players) bring up is that in a group you need to decide who gets the blueprint or items but it is not even that good of an argument.

Why do bosses need 20 days to respawn as default? To punish players that can't rush them or require teamwork so that the player that does kill the boss uses the blueprnint to help the group? I'd advocate to allow players to kill bosses at their own pace and nerf their HP or at least increase it for group play so I don't feel like I am wasting time playing solo and everyone can have blueprnt and other drops.

15 hours ago, Frosty_Mentos said:

Scalemail should burn targets for a longer duration, making minions disabled for the amount of time they are on fire more and should have more durability. The item is generally thought as volatile and painful to use, or too scary to be used due to the costs and volatility rather. It's a three football helmets and one logsuit armor costing item, weird to see it's durability low when a thulecite suit has no abilities and has a lot more tankiness. Even marble armor often is more preferable in comparison along side with the crown.

Scalemail is completely useless and the I have the same thoughts regarding Dragonfly, why bother gathering gems that way when you can just reset ruins and get a lot more green gems from clearing statues and killing AG?

15 hours ago, Frosty_Mentos said:

Blow dart assortment is very weak, there could be some sorts of explosive charges you could make perhaps, or utilize magic and get magic gear that is less protective to actually do a lot more spell damage over melee.

You can't really complain about this because DST has never been balanced about ranged combat, that's why Walter will always be terrible and shouldn't have been added to DST. (Unless klei decides to rework combat but I don't know how they would do that)

Howlitzer is quite good but that requires making a varg farm that probably would be patched If devs keep following the path they are settting with exploits being removed. So this item would also be quite useless without a varg farm and hounds walking into statues.

15 hours ago, Frosty_Mentos said:

If the game has raid bosses and events of fighting big enemies or something then we need proper reworks of bosses along side the gear we use. If characters are getting buffed I think the world getting more dangerous and more full of ancient cool loots and technology we could use to uncover to take down the big bads in more fun unique ways.

Most bosses need some sort of rework for single player or at least they need buffs for multiplayer because as I said I feel like I am wasting time putting that much effort into killing them when players in a group demolish them before they can use any abilities and it isn't simple 2x multiplayer for 2 players but much more value you bring because bosses can usually only attack one player so the other player conserves armor and it is 2x damage in the same timeframe while the boss has cooldown on the abilities they can cast.

14 hours ago, Cheggf said:

DFly is the boss that sucks, BQ & AFW are two of the best fights in the game. Toadstool is also really fun.

This makes no sense, It seems like you only like these boss fights because you put enough time into practicing them and I really don't see how BQ is better that DF.

Toadstool is terrible, loot is randomized and you can't get mushlight BP unless you get lucky and the HP of toadstool and misery is terrible.

8 hours ago, arubaro said:

Df sucks when you use walls, bq is one of the best bosses in the game for how much ways of killing her you have, toad has a lot of hp because you can hit maaany times before needing to kite or chop,  afw is one of the best bosses in the entire franchise and the difficulty is ajusted with the rewards you obtain

 

DF is only acceptable when you use walls because as a solo player you aren't meant to be able to kill lavae and fight the boss as it was designed for multiplayer, the reason we can do that is because players are partially surpassing developer's expectations but it still is only a small part of the playerbase and most use walls.

[arubaro]

19 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

DF is only acceptable when you use walls because as a solo player you aren't meant to be able to kill lavae and fight the boss as it was designed for multiplayer, the reason we can do that is because players are partially surpassing developer's expectations but it still is only a small part of the playerbase and most use walls.

Do whatever you enjoy.  Solo players are able to kill lavae and, for me, being afk behind a wall and reducing a boss to only count to 6-7 (which is the most boring way of fighting, telegraphing atacks is funnier) all the time is beyond boring. I prefer to interact with the boss. I wish they rework DF to give her more atacks than just 1 that you evade by counting instead of by skill

[00petar00]

Just now, arubaro said:

Do whatever you enjoy.  Solo players are able to kill lavae and, for me, being afk behind a wall and reducing a boss to only count to 6-7 (which is the most boring way of fighting, telegraphing atacks is funnier) all the time is beyond boring. I prefer to interact with the boss. I wish they rework DF to give her more atacks than just 1 that you evade by counting instead of by skill

I never argued that solo players can't kill lavae lol. Being "afk" behind a wall is an insult because a group of players can demolish dragonfly easily without a wall, why are you saying that a player is afk if they use a wall when in group play you will have other players to deal with lavae, makes no sense.

[arubaro]

1 hour ago, arubaro said:

as a solo player you aren't meant to be able to kill lavae

You are able. Klei even changed how frozen lavae works to make it easier and consistent

Behind a wall you are afk because you are doing nothing but watching

I dont care if you enjoy it or not. Is a fact, im not trying to hurt any ego. A lot of people would enjoy the fight if they lose their fear to face the lavae instead of doing nothing 3 to 5 times during an already repetitive and skill-less fight

[grm9]

2 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

The point I am making is that bosses are so easy in a group while they are hard solo and that messes up with my brain because I don't like wasting time and try to be as efficient as possible

you don't need to play as efficiently as possible and in that case buff bosses for multiple players?

2 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

I don't think you can bring up character perks (catapults) as a solution since it requires a specific character

half of them have stuff for BQ now, wolfgang, warly and wanda are better at pan flute, webber and wurt have minions, woodie has an odd moose strat, maxwell has shadow prison, wendy has abigail, wormwood has bramble husks and moon shrooms, willow has lunar fire and the spell that ignites everything nearby, wigfrid has scare song, wickerbottom has tentacles, winona has catapults, it's just wilson, wx, wes, wortox and walter, but all of them can use pan flute and bunnymen except wortox anyway

2 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

It is somewhat selfish but how is it pointless? I care because they spend less time than me and that is enough. Why do I need to waste more resources and time to beat the same boss while they are made to be fought in a group and in group setting thet are a joke and don't even use abilities...

why do you care about how much time others spent on them?

2 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

How does this translate to puzzles?

figuring out solutions

2 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

Killing a boss as a solo player is much more difficult for no reason that you just accepted as default alternative compared to group play that they were designed for. Look at DS bosses HP and abilities and how much easier they are, that's what players want when playing solo but you can't really argue the difficulty of DS bosses being too easy because it leads to the same outcome in group play, why players like you argue this point is because you are veterans that practice boss fights and rollback often until you figure them out

why is practicing bad? who wants to fight bosses with multiple players/with DS hp, considering that that's extremely easy and boring? idk why would you even play DS unless you just like megabasing

2 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

It isn't contradictory, that is the whole point of DST compared to DS you are supposed to play as a group and If you don't, you are punished

that's like saying that you're punished for not playing as optimally as possible

2 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

The HP isn't the only problem why can crab king grab your boat with 3 claws and if you position your boat correctly its only 2? That makes a big difference for the fight and only experienced players know about it. I think that it should always be 2 claws at most

why remove those mechanics and simplify the fight? most people already use info from the 1st guide they find, they can easily know about that, nor is there a reason to remove something that an average player doesn't know about e.g. bone cage dodge

2 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

There should be no "armies" or mob summining from bosses that are made for multiplayer when a lot of players just want to have the single player experience. The balance would be to respawn bosses within 1-5 days, why do we need to wait 20 days and the bosses need to be so difficult? This would solve most problems and any player could kill the boss themself If they want the loot, the main argument veteran players (below 1% of players) bring up is that in a group you need to decide who gets the blueprint or items but it is not even that good of an argument

why do you want to ruin the fun of everyone that fight bosses when playing solo? you already have practical cheeses for them, e.g. brightshade staff for FW, bees for CK, catapults with celestial portal or bunnymen for BQ, walls for dfly etc.

2 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

Most bosses need some sort of rework for single player or at least they need buffs for multiplayer because as I said I feel like I am wasting time putting that much effort into killing them when players in a group demolish them before they can use any abilities and it isn't simple 2x multiplayer for 2 players but much more value you bring because bosses can usually only attack one player so the other player conserves armor and it is 2x damage in the same timeframe while the boss has cooldown on the abilities they can cast

why do you care about how other people play? we don't need the bosses to get nerfed nor buffed out of spite

2 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

DF is only acceptable when you use walls because as a solo player you aren't meant to be able to kill lavae and fight the boss as it was designed for multiplayer, the reason we can do that is because players are partially surpassing developer's expectations but it still is only a small part of the playerbase and most use walls

ice staves/a damage multiplier?

[00petar00]

1 hour ago, grm9 said:

you don't need to play as efficiently as possible and in that case buff bosses for multiple players?

I already said that, buff bosses for multiplayer so that I don't feel like I am wasting time playing solo.

2 hours ago, grm9 said:

half of them have stuff for BQ now, wolfgang, warly and wanda are better at pan flute, webber and wurt have minions, woodie has an odd moose strat, maxwell has shadow prison, wendy has abigail, wormwood has bramble husks and moon shrooms, willow has lunar fire and the spell that ignites everything nearby, wigfrid has scare song, wickerbottom has tentacles, winona has catapults, it's just wilson, wx, wes, wortox and walter, but all of them can use pan flute and bunnymen except wortox anyway

These are different compared to catapults that are so useful for so many different farms in the game, anyone can use pan flute and just because someone is a more efficient it doesn't stop your from using it on other characters.

2 hours ago, grm9 said:

why do you care about how much time others spent on them?

That's how my brain works, I compare myself to other players and that is why I try to get better and waste less time.

2 hours ago, grm9 said:

why is practicing bad? who wants to fight bosses with multiple players/with DS hp, considering that that's extremely easy and boring? idk why would you even play DS unless you just like megabasing

Practicing isn't bad but it become bad when you practice and go to forums and say how boss fights shouldn't be made easier in any way shape or form because it would be more boring for you. Now imagine If you didn't practice these fights as much to learn every single thing about them, would you really care as much? I don't really think so.

We had this discussion before, most players don't practice and won't ever practice and the game is too punishing to them. If you want to play that type of game and want bosses to be more difficult, I don't think DST is the game for you but dark souls, elden ring and similar games that allow you to respawn and keep repeating the same fight without much a loss.

Players will always push for easier content because they don't practice.

2 hours ago, grm9 said:

that's like saying that you're punished for not playing as optimally as possible

Kind of, that's at least how I play for the first 100-200 days and after that I start playing more relaxed.

2 hours ago, grm9 said:

why remove those mechanics and simplify the fight? most people already use info from the 1st guide they find, they can easily know about that, nor is there a reason to remove something that an average player doesn't know about e.g. bone cage dodge

Bone cage dodge is a minor thing that isn't impacting everyone that doesn't know or use it. Crab king 3 claws compared to 2 is a big difference in a fight, especially for a solo player so it shouldn't be in the game when players won't even figure it out without watching a youtube video.

2 hours ago, grm9 said:

why do you want to ruin the fun of everyone that fight bosses when playing solo? you already have practical cheeses for them, e.g. brightshade staff for FW, bees for CK, catapults with celestial portal or bunnymen for BQ, walls for dfly etc.

I fundamentally don't agree with boss ability to summon minions. How is this ruining the fun of everyone and not a few extreme cases like you with thousands of hours into the game already? Most players would prefer fighting a boss without it having unfair abilities for solo players like these.

FW almost isn't even a problem because the minions he summons can be easily dispatched with weather pain and his mechanics are good the issue is that it is a bit too difficult for most players to learn to swap items.

The main problem are the two bosses BQ and DF, they summon a lot of minions and it doesn't seem fair.

Development is going into the direction where cheeses and most options for a fight are becoming not worth for new bosses and lavae wall for DF fight can get patched. 

2 hours ago, grm9 said:

why do you care about how other people play? we don't need the bosses to get nerfed nor buffed out of spite

It really isn't out of spite but because it is very unbalanced. Why did the bosses get such HP buff from singleplayer DS to DST and 5-6 wolfgangs can kill FW without the boss even being able to cast a single spell? My assumption is that HP was buffed for multiplayer but it makes the biggest difference for a solo player, the more players you have the fight gets so much easier it isn't simple 1 player being 1/2 as good as 2 players.

If bosses are a breeze for multiplayer why should they keep their current HP when it is only really difficult for solo players? I guess because players have adapted and I fit this category as I would find a lot of boss fights more boring if the HP was nerfed but I would prefer that compared to nothing changing.

Ideal solution would be to rework bosses so that fight is more balanced to solo players and keep the current HP for them but buff HP for multiplayer.

2 hours ago, grm9 said:

ice staves/a damage multiplier?

I will never use ice staffs because I don't agree with the design of DF minion summons, damage multiplayer isn't an excuse you think it is to keep the mechanic as it is.

[grm9]

1 minute ago, 00petar00 said:

That's how my brain works, I compare myself to other players and that is why I try to get better and waste less time

compare yourself to solo players then, or just don't?

1 minute ago, 00petar00 said:

I already said that, buff bosses for multiplayer so that I don't feel like I am wasting time playing solo

invalid reason

2 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

anyone can use pan flute and just because someone is a more efficient it doesn't stop your from using it on other characters

i meant that it's the best strat for those characters except pathfinding/collision stuff

3 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

If you want to play that type of game and want bosses to be more difficult, I don't think DST is the game for you but dark souls, elden ring and similar games that allow you to respawn and keep repeating the same fight without much a loss

these games don't have puzzle bosses unless you count picking up a weapon in the boss' arena and using it as a puzzle, but that's still just 1 solution, unlike DST bosses, which have many solutions, with some of them requiring no skill e.g. brightshade staff and some being hard and fun to execute

4 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

Practicing isn't bad but it become bad when you practice and go to forums and say how boss fights shouldn't be made easier in any way shape or form because it would be more boring for you. Now imagine If you didn't practice these fights as much to learn every single thing about them, would you really care as much? I don't really think so

you don't need to practice to do most BQ strats, practice only really applies to stuff like FW and CK without AoE/teleportation/nightmare amulet/ice staves, which you don't need to do, you can get weather pains/bees and ice staves and brightshade staff and nightmare amulet

6 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

Kind of, that's at least how I play for the first 100-200 days and after that I start playing more relaxed

the point was that it's like complaining about the game punishing you for not learning instead of saying that the game becomes easier after you learn more

8 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

it shouldn't be in the game when players won't even figure it out without watching a youtube video

have you never noticed that claws can't go further than X tiles away from where they spawned?

9 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

Most players would prefer fighting a boss without it having unfair abilities for solo players like these

why are they unfair? define unfair, since if unfair means that you can't counter it, then that's misinformation, and if you mean that people can't know about stuff, then they can except stuff like bone cage dodge that doesn't have a clue or an indication about it existing

10 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

How is this ruining the fun of everyone and not a few extreme cases like you with thousands of hours into the game already?

do you think that only a few people have fun when fighting dfly without walls/BQ with lunar fire/shadow prison/spell that ignites everything nearby or figure out new strats for it on their own?

13 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

The main problem are the two bosses BQ and DF, they summon a lot of minions and it doesn't seem fair

use ice staves/damage multiplier and pan flute/bunnymen

14 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

Development is going into the direction where cheeses and most options for a fight are becoming not worth for new bosses and lavae wall for DF fight can get patched

so because the devs are making the game worse, they should make it even worse?

15 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

 5-6 wolfgangs can kill FW without the boss even being able to cast a single spell

it's extremely funny that you're complaining about it now considering that no one did that previously even though wolfgang and FW were in the game 7 years ago, that's an extremely unrealistic scenario that only got used in a seeded speedrun

17 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

It really isn't out of spite but because it is very unbalanced. Why did the bosses get such HP buff from singleplayer DS to DST and 5-6 wolfgangs can kill FW without the boss even being able to cast a single spell? My assumption is that HP was buffed for multiplayer but it makes the biggest difference for a solo player, the more players you have the fight gets so much easier it isn't simple 1 player being 1/2 as good as 2 players.

If bosses are a breeze for multiplayer why should they keep their current HP when it is only really difficult for solo players? I guess because players have adapted and I fit this category as I would find a lot of boss fights more boring if the HP was nerfed but I would prefer that compared to nothing changing.

Ideal solution would be to rework bosses so that fight is more balanced to solo players and keep the current HP for them but buff HP for multiplayer

i would've probably wanted for them to get buffed during multiplayer if i would've played multiplayer much, although that'd add the issue of people playing inefficiently and making the fight harder/longer by helping

19 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

I will never use ice staffs because I don't agree with the design of DF minion summons

too bad, that's your problem

19 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

damage multiplayer isn't an excuse you think it is to keep the mechanic as it is

that's a 2nd option

[arubaro]

4 hours ago, grm9 said:

wx, wortox

WX can kill her easily with the electric circuit in spring

Wortox get healing for free by killing the dron bees

People complain for the sake of complaining ignoring all the power creep added to indirectly nerf all the bosses

 

[Ridley]

There is no intended puzzle to something like Bee Queen and Toadstool. They are built for a gang of players to overwhelm with numbers and resources as evident by Bee Queen's debut fight on Rhymes with Play and Toadstool originally having way more health and a timer. 

What I think should happen is that bosses start off designed for a singleplayer fight, but enraging to a higher difficulty levels depending on damage taken per second (Like Dragonfly's stun mechanic). They then look different, have new attacks to mix in, gain appropriate stat buffs, and drop higher amounts of their loot as reward (not new loot!). This allows for a tight singleplayer fight, the prevention of boss melting, better distribution of boss loot in multiplayer, incentive to bring friends to the fight without requiring them, a challenge for vets to solo enraged bosses (some might call it a puzzle), and a system that avoids punishing uncoordinated groups of survivors with low dps.

This can also be applied to bosses like Ancient Guardian who some people find boring, as to allow scaling difficulty.

Why would the bosses get stronger as they get weaker? The forces who watch the survivors want a good show and are willing to lend some of their power to adjust the scales.

[grm9]

52 minutes ago, Ridley said:

There is no intended puzzle to something like Bee Queen and Toadstool

how does that matter at all? the devs intended for people to have 1 player distracting lavaes and everyone else fighting dfly, but no one does that, is the fight bad because of that because the intended way wouldn't have been fun, even though no one uses it nor is required to?

52 minutes ago, Ridley said:

What I think should happen is that bosses start off designed for a singleplayer fight

how are you supposed to activate the full fight for practice for multiplayer/just fighting it when playing solo and how would dodging AoE attacks when playing with others work, considering that someone could accidentally bait the boss into attacking you or not know who has aggro and get hit because of walking into where they were when trying to dodge?

52 minutes ago, Ridley said:

the prevention of boss melting

so that'd make all perks for fighting except AoE worthless 

[Ridley]

6 minutes ago, grm9 said:

how does that matter at all? the devs intended for people to have 1 player distracting lavaes and everyone else fighting dfly, but no one does that, is the fight bad because of that because the intended way wouldn't have been fun, even though no one uses it nor is required to?

It matters because it helps explains why the boss is the way it is.

Yeah, Dragonfly do be kinda bad. Not just because of the overwhelming lavaes though. I know you can ice wand them, but you can be in for serious hurt if Dragonfly spawns them away from you and then rushes back to fight. It puts you in a really bad position that one player was never supposed to handle alone, because Dragonfly is trying to smack you while you still need to use the ice wand.

Can one player in a team even aggro all the lavaes? I thought they just go for whoever Dragonfly is currently mad at.

It is also pathetic that Dragonfly has this super cool enraged form that nobody wants to fight, and the enraged form is a natural part of the fight unlike the Klaus punishment.

6 minutes ago, grm9 said:

how are you supposed to practice dodging their attacks or something when playing solo and how would dodging AoE attacks work in multiplayer, considering that someone could accidentally bait the boss into attacking you or you could just not know who has aggro and get hit by trying to go to where they were to dodge?

It would work the same as it does now? I don't follow what you mean. AoE attacks already exist and work? Klaus casts spells at every enemy combatant.

[grm9]

1 minute ago, Ridley said:

It matters because it helps explains why the boss is the way it is

can't be a reason for why they are bad

1 minute ago, Ridley said:

you can be in for serious hurt if Dragonfly spawns them away from you and then rushes back to fight

use flute, dfly won't get enraged while asleep so you can just kill lavaes while she's sleeping

2 minutes ago, Ridley said:

It puts you in a really bad position that one player was never supposed to handle alone, because Dragonfly is trying to smack you while you still need to use the ice wand

you can still do that without taking damage by shooting at dfly before it gets to you to make it do a stationary attack, dodge it and shoot lavae after that, so even if you didn't get flute for some reason, you can still dodge everything

4 minutes ago, Ridley said:

Can one player in a team even aggro all the lavaes? I thought they just go for whoever Dragonfly is currently mad at

from dfly's file

5 minutes ago, Ridley said:

It is also pathetic that Dragonfly has this super cool enraged form that nobody wants to fight

you can do that, no one forces you to use flute

you still didn't answer how the intended way to fight a boss matters and why are BQ and toad bad

6 minutes ago, Ridley said:

It would work the same as it does now? I don't follow what you mean. AoE attacks already exist and work? Klaus casts spells at every enemy combatant

directional AoE i mean, e.g. daywalker, he only works because you can see who is he running at and slam phase usually gets almost skipped if there are multiple people

[Ridley]

3 minutes ago, grm9 said:

can't be a reason for why they are bad

You are conflating different things here. I am not saying Beequeen or Toadstool are bad because they do or don't have a puzzle. I am not saying a boss is bad or good because it stick to its intended design or not. I am saying Beequeen and Toadstool are made for a straightforward multiplayer beatdown, they retain that design, and I think it should be changed.

13 minutes ago, grm9 said:

you can still do that without taking damage by shooting at dfly before it gets to you to make it do a stationary attack, dodge it and shoot lavae after that, so even if you didn't get flute for some reason, you can still dodge everything

Yes I have seen the video of people demonstrating this. You don't seem to differentiate between the reasonable and the possible. Does any of this sound like a reasonable expectation for players who don't google for cheese and exploits?

18 minutes ago, grm9 said:

from dfly's file

I find this kind of funny, because Dragonfly spawns lavae under herself. This means any player trying to hit her is the likely target. So are players evacuating the arena so all the lavaes chase whoever remains to kite them?

 

23 minutes ago, grm9 said:

directional AoE i mean, e.g. daywalker, he only works because you can see who is he running at and slam phase usually gets almost skipped if there are multiple people

Bearger swipe, Deerclops swipe, Eyes of Terror dash attack, Celestial Champion lasers, etc?

[grm9]

39 minutes ago, Ridley said:

Bearger swipe, Deerclops swipe, Eyes of Terror dash attack, Celestial Champion lasers, etc?

no clue, they're easy enough to fight solo so i've never got to fight them with others

40 minutes ago, Ridley said:

players who don't google for cheese and exploits?

how is that related to anything? is shooting at dfly to make it do a stationary attack cheese?

40 minutes ago, Ridley said:

You don't seem to differentiate between the reasonable and the possible

i've already told you that you can use flute anytime before it gets to you

41 minutes ago, Ridley said:

So are players evacuating the arena so all the lavaes chase whoever remains to kite them?

no clue since no one does that, but probably everyone except 1 player step away right before lavae spawns

44 minutes ago, Ridley said:

I am saying Beequeen and Toadstool are made for a straightforward multiplayer beatdown, they retain that design, and I think it should be changed

why does it matter what were they made for considering that they're fun to figure out strats for and fight when using some strats when playing solo?

[Guille6785]

literally all of your suggestions would make the fights significantly worse

[Jakepeng99]

I like the bosses that feel like puzzles. Crystal clops is one of my favourite bosses.