Cannibal flower change is not good

[Uedo]

1 minute ago, Gashzer said:

"So they can use cheese" this is great game design logic 10/10.............. not!

Orrr instead of using cheese some of the more clunky parts of the fight can be smoothed:

• Stopping shadows creatures attacking after nightmare amulet is removed.
• Allow ancient fuelweaver to be frozen as while hes infused with shadow his fossil skeleton is physical and should be able to be frozen unlike full shadow creatures like shadow clockworks/terror/crawling horrors.
• Have both the shadow hand shield and woven shadows linked to the same cooldown. As in.  Only one set of woven shadows will spawn until you destroy all shadow hand an lower his shield then both cooldowns start from then. His mental block attack will still cooldown separately tho.

Even these 3 are added the QoL of this fight would be much better.

Why not both?

[Gashzer]

Just now, Uedo said:

Why not both?

Lureplant blocking is gone! Look to the future not to the past! 

[Uedo]

Just now, Gashzer said:

Lureplant blocking is gone! Look to the future not to the past! 

I don't use a lureplant anymore :3

[Gashzer]

Just now, Uedo said:

I don't use a lureplant anymore :3

Found a workaround eh? 

[grm9]

1 minute ago, Gashzer said:

"So they can use cheese" this is great game design logic 10/10.............. not!

what else do you suggest to do in case some people like something, but other people don't?

2 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Stopping shadows creatures attacking after nightmare amulet is removed

imo it's better to keep it the way it is because then you wouldn't be able to finish off nightmares after you go sane and getting sanity through bone helm while you're sane by equipping it for a moment wouldn't work anymore and nightmares wouldn't attack you if you unequip bone helm which is a sort of trade off and what makes it so you don't simply wear it all the time instead of enlightened crown, maybe cap it at 3 attacks before deaggroing though, since atm they deaggro if a 33% RNG chance procs after they attack

7 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

 

• Allow ancient fuelweaver to be frozen as while hes infused with shadow his fossil skeleton is physical and should be able to be frozen unlike full shadow creatures like shadow clockworks/terror/crawling horrors

that'd make the fight too easy because you could just keep him frozen to prevent him from eating woven shadows and hold F near him to kill them all, ig you could do that since you're still not realistically going to get ice staves if you want to do the fight early though so it wouldn't make current strats entirely worthless

8 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

 

• Have both the shadow hand shield and woven shadows linked to the same cooldown. As in.  Only one set of woven shadows will spawn until you destroy all shadow hand an lower his shield then both cooldowns start from then. His mental block attack will still cooldown separately tho

that's a part of the fight that you're supposed to manage on your own, you're supposed to sync them, removing that would make the fight much easier and simpler and you wouldn't be able to do anything with that even if you'd want to do the fight the hard way so i wouldn't want that

9 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Even these 3 are added the QoL of this fight would be much better

easier*

[Yuuko]

27 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Obviously what I quoted above shows there’s more to it then just AFW.

Is it breaking Mega-Base animal pens or something?

Yes it is more than AFW, but also if the problem is AFW the changes should be more focused on AFW.  Basically if the problem is AFW is "too disabled" by something, then tweak AFW to react better.  Don't nuke the tool which has many uses which are not nearly as egregious just for the sake of 1 interaction.

More then that, what Uedo says is quite relevant to my interests

22 minutes ago, Uedo said:

With all of that; I still feel it'll come back at some point. It makes no difference, because those who know how to cheese in the exact same way (i'm not talking max/spiders either) it has actually made no difference whatsoever. Will they patch that? Maybe? What's the point though? Gonna patch every method? What next, Maxwell's prison? Woodies treeguards? Houndius? Wormwood (considering his bramble invalidates the trickiest part of the fight)?  It's just such a waste of time XD

idk if ppl noticed b/c it wasn't stated in the beta and was put at the footnotes of the full-patch notes so unless you clicked that link and scrolled all the way to the bottom you'd miss it but...

That "creatures getting caught" is AFW relating to an non-lureplant, non-scrappy pig related exploit that has also been present in the game for some time.  It was mentioned in response to the lureplant nuke, and subsequently got nuked as well.

This creates a hostile environment for people who are getting creative with the game.  If someone has an issue with a boss or wants to have fun with the mechanics, I would be quick to offer any tips I have including exploits to help that player accomplish their goal.  Having Klei take this as a list of things to nerf just because it isn't some dumb "sword armor F" combat routine makes me hesitant to suggest things to help people.  This kills the positive player supporting player vibe we typically have when people want help.  The line between what is exploitive, and what is "too exploitive" is big, grey, and fuzzy.

My own experience with this felt very cold when some changes and updates were made to the game and rather than getting help and support with my questions from players I was stonewalled.  I was told there were "secret techniques" that could accomplish what I wanted, but they wouldn't talk about them openly b/c they were also afraid Klei was just gonna nuke whatever fun we were having.

tbh that's why - rather than mentioning other actual cheese that can / does work - I'm naming Maxwell.  Its Klei's own overpowered baby here and I've replicated all of the "egregious" things the lureplant did with him.  If they nuke him too I won't be missing much.  I've played him a lot, he is very OP - even in planar, unlike Wanda...  Screw Maxwell.  Still if people want to use him I'm not gonna stop them, just quit stopping me.

One of my favorite ways to play DST is to turn off my attack functions and see everything I can do without the ability to attack.  Lureplant nuking severely impacts this play style RIP and makes me feel extremely unwelcome in the game as it moves forward.

Edited March 28 by Yuuko

[Mike23Ua]

Well now I’m going to go search the internet for all the ways people have been using Lureplants and try to uncover the mystery of what it is that your REALLY upset about if your Okay with AFW being able to destroy/trample them.

I don’t suppose your going to reveal what your Actual reason for wanting the fix reversed is and it obviously isn’t just for the AFW fight.. so now you’ve sparked my curiosity and now I must rack my brain scouring the Internet to find out what it really is! 

[djturner]

As somebody whose gameplay loop is starting co-op worlds with one other player, making it to endgame without character switches, and then repeating... I'll admit, I used the lureplant cheese on AFW more than once. Functionally though all this really does is set the order of operations to Celestial Champion first, get a Brightshade Staff, then tackle the Fuelweaver. I don't know what it is but I can't wield the dang Weather Pains to save my digital life. It'll be a little weird to me because I'm always more inclined to do the content in order of release, but it is what it is.

Further, as a Team Shadow guy I love AFW being the top dog, but from a design standpoint it is very jarring how many steps above all the rest he really still is. He's the only one that you can't just "bring more armor/food/(boat patches)" if you're having a hard time. I guess Klaus deserves a nomination in the same category, but respecting his mechanics is obviously much simpler and not as technically difficult. Part of me loves the unforgiving brutality of the AFW fight, and part of me thinks it could be "smoothed over" a bit. Not sure.

Edited March 28 by djturner

[Sir Noel]

24 minutes ago, grm9 said:

imo FW is the most fun boss in the game, why is my opinion worse than your? most people don't even try to fight the bosses in any way except trying to do it with only weapon and armor by only trying to dodge attacks on their own or copying what others do, most people that complain about bosses being not fun to fight don't even know that there are more fun ways to fight them, e.g. people complaining about inventory management in case of FW and not knowing that you can do the fight without swapping items

I would never say anyone's opinion is worse than someone else's. I also find FW a fun fight, and I'm not advocating for a total rework. But when there are a majority of players who do not find the regular method of fighting the boss engaging, then there is something wrong and we should listen to those people. 

The fact that you can dodge the bone cage at all is never shown to the player and you would have to look it up or stumble on it through sheer luck. And the circling method requires precision and minimal mistakes and is such a difficulty spike from any other boss that most of the player base is just not willing to go through that, which is just a fact of the matter. This is what I mean when these boss's deserve to be looked at again, because you can offset these challenging methods by simply using a weather pain/lazy explorer/lureplant/whatever, leaving only "hardcore" players to do the fight regularly. The fight doesn't encourage you to go out of your way to explore and experiment with its mechanics because there are simple easier methods that most people will default to, and that's a problem with the fight itself.

[Gashzer]

3 minutes ago, grm9 said:

what else do you suggest to do in case some people like something, but other people don't?

Klei reads our discussion and they decide what to do. We have no power here its their game in the end and they have to set the rules for DST that we have to follow. All we can do is argue our points 

11 minutes ago, grm9 said:

Imo it's better to keep it the way it is because then you wouldn't be able to finish off nightmares after you go sane and getting sanity through bone helm while you're sane by equipping it for a moment wouldn't work anymore and nightmares wouldn't attack you if you unequip bone helm which is a sort of trade off and what makes it so you don't simply wear it all the time instead of enlightened crown, maybe cap it at 3 attacks before deaggroing though, since atm they deaggro if a 33% RNG chance procs after they attack

Maybe localize this change for just the atrium arena and shadow creatures behave the same elsewhere? I think this is a fair compromise.

13 minutes ago, grm9 said:

that'd make the fight too easy because you could just keep him frozen to prevent him from eating woven shadows and hold F near him to kill them all, ig you could do that since you're still not realistically going to get ice staves if you want to do the fight early though so it wouldn't make current strats entirely worthless

Blue gems are acquired pretty early and its another option. You dont need to use it if you think it makes the fight too easy   

15 minutes ago, grm9 said:

that's a part of the fight that you're supposed to manage on your own, you're supposed to sync them, removing that would make the fight much easier and simpler and you wouldn't be able to do anything with that even if you'd want to do the fight the hard way so i wouldn't want that

I think it makes the fight messy and not fun on nintendo switch. Its manageable on pc but for both consoles and pc this would be a good change. You could give ancient fuelweaver a new ranged attack to add abit of extra danger/balance/fun as a compromise.

18 minutes ago, grm9 said:

easier*

Yes thats the point! 

[Dingle]

1 hour ago, 00petar00 said:

That is the argument some people are making because boss dies instantly and there is no difficulty as you only need to gather stuff and mostly only gunpowder fits that category because gems can be farmed with varg farm, ruins, dragonfly, duped, hounds so you will have plenty anyway no matter what you do.

Why can't these be used as an argument? The reasons players use against lureplants like you is immersion, too easy, boring, jealousy.

I'll explain it one by one:

Easy - player choice whether to use lureplants or not.

Boring - again player choice whether to use lureplants or not.

Jealousy - players don't like that they kill the boss as intended but others can cheese it, they want to feel superior when they obtain the gear when there are already options that allow for anyone kill any boss like the stated methods in the quote.

See what your argument against lureplants is? Basically breaking your immersion when players that don't care can use it but you don't have to.

 

 

I still don't get the comparison, sorry. Does Fuelweaver die instantly to gunpowder without his AI even kicking in? How much "only need to gather stuff" does it entail to make the gunpowder? Did the devs intend for gunpowder to do damage? Wasn't gunpowder already nerfed too? Is the entirety of killing FW with gunpowder as easy as plopping some lureplants down, and if so, why aren't you using that method instead? And so on.

You didn't cover the part where it makes sense that gunpowder or catapults could kill FW, but it doesn't really make sense for it to lose its AI against lureplants that it gets stuck on. You also didn't cover whether or not changing those other "too easy" things would make you happy. You also put a lot of words in my mouth. I like how you said "explain it one by one" and then avoided the first point (that you yourself brought up).

Everything you're saying seems like a hollow ploy to get lureplants back in as AI blockers.

1 hour ago, Yuuko said:

Fixing voidwalking and changing AFW behavior is fine.  When they first announced changing lureplant due to Scrappy concerns I suggested to just have the scrap pile disallow placement of anything within a certain range of it, or give Scrappy a leap attack back to his scrap pile that could damage things in the way.  I had no issue changing him to prevent collision with the scrap pile causing him to break his gear easily during the fight, etc.  Same with AFW.  He already senses when no player is in the arena and moves to pull the key out, this could easily be put on a max timer to auto-end preventing out-of-bounds shenanigans or give him some power to effect people outside of the arena.  It would also have been pretty easy to just have AFW attack lureplants.  There were plenty of ways to shore up these fights without nuking creative tools.

I think lureplant, catapult, and gunpowder don't need to be changed.

.....

These are all tools with uses that can reward creative play and already have interactions in the game which prevent them from being catch-all killers.  Removing them is only removing player expression, creativity, and agency.  None of these effect players who don't want to use them as all of the fights are still able to be directly engaged if that is what the player prefers.

A lot of people who use these exploits are using it only to make the fight farmable.  I can and do fight AFW "legit" often, my first kill in every world is done straight up because its fun and feels like a good achievement to pull off.  When I return to reset ruins or get another bone armor / helm I might not want to spend so much time and energy so I exploit and minimize the cost / time of the fight.  Utilizing the world to minimize and automate is also a major fun point of the game.

I agree with a lot of the spirit of this. I think my limit is somewhere before voidwalking/getting stuck on two lureplants/spider nests and his AI dying. I'd be interested in lureplant strategies against bosses if they were a little more interesting than an "I win against this punching bag".

[Uedo]

18 minutes ago, Yuuko said:

Yes it is more than AFW, but also if the problem is AFW the changes should be more focused on AFW.  Basically if the problem is AFW is "too disabled" by something, then tweak AFW to react better.  Don't nuke the tool which has many uses which are not nearly as egregious just for the sake of 1 interaction.

More then that, what Uedo says is quite relevant to my interests

idk if ppl noticed b/c it wasn't stated in the beta and was put at the footnotes of the full-patch notes so unless you clicked that link and scrolled all the way to the bottom you'd miss it but...

That "creatures getting caught" is AFW relating to an non-lureplant, non-scrappy pig related exploit that has also been present in the game for some time.  It was mentioned in response to the lureplant nuke, and subsequently got nuked as well.

This creates a hostile environment for people who are getting creative with the game.  If someone has an issue with a boss or wants to have fun with the mechanics, I would be quick to offer any tips I have including exploits to help that player accomplish their goal.  Having Klei take this as a list of things to nerf just because it isn't some dumb "sword armor F" combat routine makes me hesitant to suggest things to help people.  This kills the positive player supporting player vibe we typically have when people want help.  The line between what is exploitive, and what is "too exploitive" is big, grey, and fuzzy.

My own experience with this felt very cold when some changes and updates were made to the game and rather than getting help and support with my questions from players I was stonewalled.  I was told there were "secret techniques" that could accomplish what I wanted, but they wouldn't talk about them openly b/c they were also afraid Klei was just gonna nuke whatever fun we were having.

tbh that's why - rather than mentioning other actual cheese that can / does work - I'm naming Maxwell.  Its Klei's own overpowered baby here and I've replicated all of the "egregious" things the lureplant did with him.  If they nuke him too I won't be missing much.  I've played him a lot, he is very OP - even in planar, unlike Wanda...  Screw Maxwell.  Still if people want to use him I'm not gonna stop them, just quit stopping me.

One of my favorite ways to play DST is to turn off my attack functions and see everything I can do without the ability to attack.  Lureplant nuking severely impacts this play style RIP and makes me feel extremely unwelcome in the game as it moves forward.

Ah I see, yeah I agree with you. Love a bit of Max too. 

Don't be too disheartened though; I'm sure you're well aware but I think people are pretty transparent in their ignorance on these forums, most people are here to argue about things for the sake of being chief edgelord. It's pretty likely Klei only takes inspiration from the forums and not instruction, i'm sure they're confident in what they feel is right for the game. 

I guess that's where my argument comes from - it just feel like a bit of a waste of time considering how much it frustrates people and how, ultimately, it's redundant, already. It's just weird hill to die on (If they do, I still feel it'll come back)

[Gashzer]

6 minutes ago, Uedo said:

chief edgelord

I go by High King Edgelord in honour of the ancient kings of Ireland 

[grm9]

15 minutes ago, Sir Noel said:

The fact that you can dodge the bone cage at all is never shown to the player and you would have to look it up or stumble on it through sheer luck

that is an issue with the fight and something that i'd want klei to change

15 minutes ago, Sir Noel said:

But when there are a majority of players who do not find the regular method of fighting the boss engaging, then there is something wrong and we should listen to those people

or maybe people should start experimenting with stuff or at least looking for another strat if they aren't having fun when fighting the boss using the 1st strat they found, it's starting to feel like a problem with the community, especially considering people not figuring out that they can drop the ham bat

18 minutes ago, Sir Noel said:

And the circling method requires precision and minimal mistakes and is such a difficulty spike from any other boss that most of the player base is just not willing to go through that, which is just a fact of the matter

that's what you need to go through to get a hat that disables sanity and armor that allows you to tank without taking damage and more ruins stuff

20 minutes ago, Sir Noel said:

This is what I mean when these boss's deserve to be looked at again, because you can offset these challenging methods by simply using a weather pain/lazy explorer/lureplant/whatever, leaving only "hardcore" players to do the fight regularly

weather pain and lazy explorer are the accepted normal way to fight FW, even devs seem to think that way, considering they brought up a lazy explorer change as a FW change, i don't see anything wrong with a fight requiring you to use specific items, especially if you wouldn't normally use them, while still allowing you to do it without them if you get good

21 minutes ago, Sir Noel said:

The fight doesn't encourage you to go out of your way to explore and experiment with its mechanics because there are simple easier methods that most people will default to, and that's a problem with the fight itself

that's a problem with the community tbh, they should be looking for different ways to fight the boss if they aren't having fun when fighting it using the 1st strat they found

18 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Klei reads our discussion and they decide what to do. We have no power here its their game in the end and they have to set the rules for DST that we have to follow. All we can do is argue our points

i meant that what are people supposed to do if they don't like the fight, since those people will exist anyway even if klei will change the fight? what am i supposed to do if i won't like the new FW, with no way to fight old FW?

19 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Maybe localize this change for just the atrium arena and shadow creatures behave the same elsewhere? I think this is a fair compromise

that's also a part of the fight in a way, you need to manage the nightmares chasing and interrupting you if you go insane and they spawn, just cap it at 3 attacks before deaggro maybe

20 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Blue gems are acquired pretty early and its another option. You dont need to use it if you think it makes the fight too easy

that's what i said, the point was that ig that wouldn't affect how you kill FW early because it'd still be faster to not get ice staves so it'd be fine, still though, that'd make it so you can pretty much disable the fight which would make it absurdly easy and people might end up asking to make it harder and that'd make using weather pains and brightshade staves pointless, i don't see the need to nerf the fight considering you can already easily do it using brightshade staff currently, that'd just make it so even people that don't know much of anything about the fight would be able to do it 1st try during 1st winter

24 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

I think it makes the fight messy and not fun on nintendo switch. Its manageable on pc but for both consoles and pc this would be a good change. You could give ancient fuelweaver a new ranged attack to add abit of extra danger/balance/fun as a compromise

no need to remove existing fun mechanics and try compensating them with other mechanics that might end up being bad considering how bad new bosses are, imo fights shouldn't get nerfed because of consoles since most people play on PC and consoles should ideally just support keyboard and mouse, that's a problem with a game that heavily relies on you using mouse for clicking on multiple objects on the screen quickly not working on controller because controllers have no quick way to move a cursor or select another target out of more than 20 targets on screen

[Uedo]

38 minutes ago, grm9 said:

no need to remove existing fun mechanics and try compensating them with other mechanics that might end up being bad considering how bad new bosses are, imo fights shouldn't get nerfed because of consoles since most people play on PC and consoles should ideally just support keyboard and mouse, that's a problem with a game that heavily relies on you using mouse for clicking on multiple objects on the screen quickly not working on controller because controllers have no quick way to move a cursor or select another target out of more than 20 targets on screen

Thank you so much for saying this - It's really annoying speaking to console players at times. A keyboard and a mouse are both peripherals, your device should support them they're THAT common. It's not Klei's responsibility to make consoles support things that have been around for decades, A monitor is a peripheral - people would be annoyed if the console didn't support that.

[Yuuko]

3 hours ago, Dingle said:

I agree with a lot of the spirit of this. I think my limit is somewhere before voidwalking/getting stuck on two lureplants/spider nests and his AI dying. I'd be interested in lureplant strategies against bosses if they were a little more interesting than an "I win against this punching bag".

Most lureplant strategies aren't just "I win against this punching bag."  That is pretty much only AFW.  For other fights its more like "I don't let you walk, but I still need to dodge your attacks" sorta on par with how a wall blocks lavae but you still gotta fight dfly.  Also there is non-fight stuff that just uses bosses to be there.  I am not a megabaser or a very decorative player but my two favorite things to do that are artistic are to build habitats for Bearger since he doesn't despawn, and mandrakes since I refuse to kill them and love to dig them up for evening /night dance parties.  Lureplants help with blocking Bearger in these so he doesn't have to always be on lunar island so far away where I can't always see him T_T

3 hours ago, Uedo said:

Don't be too disheartened though; I'm sure you're well aware but I think people are pretty transparent in their ignorance on these forums, most people are here to argue about things for the sake of being chief edgelord. It's pretty likely Klei only takes inspiration from the forums and not instruction, i'm sure they're confident in what they feel is right for the game. 

I guess that's where my argument comes from - it just feel like a bit of a waste of time considering how much it frustrates people and how, ultimately, it's redundant, already. It's just weird hill to die on (If they do, I still feel it'll come back)

I think Klei has the correct position to not wade into the forums themselves, and I do believe they read our comments and take that feedback into consideration.  What is disheartening is it feels Klei has picked up this "anti not-Fcombat" position judging by recent additions and changes.  In this case the other forumers act as a proxy to Klei's potential positions here, and I'll take that at-bat.  If it can show Klei a contrasting perspective, then its a win.  If Klei doesn't change and the game does become more strict, simple, and less creative then it is what it is and I'll just have to find another place to play.

I can't say I didn't get my money's worth after 3k hours playtime, but the creative mechanics, pathing through the game in various ways utilizing odd strategies is like 90% of my play time.  This includes fighting bosses legit inspired by some really great players.  My preferred legit method for AFW is kiting wovens and dodging bone cages.  Its a lot tougher, but feels so much more rewarding.  It also feels fun to do other jank lol.  I'm a player who thrives on options.  Ovens, catapults, lunar flame, bunnymen, walls, pan flutes, etc there are so many ways to do bqueen and it would suck to lose any of them.  I know like 5 different ways to do walls with dfly, and several ways to not use walls and even without panflutes, its so much fun to have these options!  Anyway,

2 hours ago, Uedo said:

A keyboard and a mouse are both peripherals, your device should support them they're THAT common. It's not Klei's responsibility to make consoles support things that have been around for decades, A monitor is a peripheral - people would be annoyed if the console didn't support that.

I think it might be on Klei to add kb/m support for their games on console.  I don't own a console so I'm not fully informed, but there are kb/m for consoles and some games that use them.

Edited March 28 by Yuuko

[EATZYOWAFFLEZ]

This certainly is the lureplant thread of all time.

Personally, I'm completely fine with the lureplant collision removal. While it was more of an exploit than a bug, imo it didn't encourage any actually fun strategy. The houndius shootius strategy was literally just waiting, and the voidwalking strategy is holding F without even needing to tank. Same thing with toadstood, though his fight needs an update.

As for Maxwell, I don't think his shadow prison is that comparable to the lureplant exploit. You still have to tank, still have to kill the shadow hands, and still have to telepoof out of the bone snare. Maxwell's shadow prison really only replaces the weather pain from a normal AFW fight. I think character specific strategies should be encouraged, so I'm fine with other characters not having access to this. I do however agree that Maxwell is MASSIVELY over tuned, especially considering that he relegates the existence of another character (Wickerbottom) to a portal swap.

Oh also, may @Yuuko's crusade for willow finally rest.

[Yuuko]

13 minutes ago, EATZYOWAFFLEZ said:

As for Maxwell, I don't think his shadow prison is that comparable to the lureplant exploit. You still have to tank, still have to kill the shadow hands, and still have to telepoof out of the bone snare. Maxwell's shadow prison really only replaces the weather pain from a normal AFW fight. I think character specific strategies should be encouraged, so I'm fine with other characters not having access to this. I do however agree that Maxwell is MASSIVELY over tuned, especially considering that he relegates the existence of another character (Wickerbottom) to a portal swap.

 

Sry, did you not see this?

 

13 minutes ago, EATZYOWAFFLEZ said:

Oh also, may @Yuuko's crusade for willow finally rest.

Willow is in a pretty good spot.  Hard to pick between lunar and shadow now.  Lunar lets you farm monkeys and hounds en mass and clear Bqueen very easily.  Shadow is great for literally every boss in the game, especially the whole lunar quest line which is an ever increasing portion of the game.  1 stack to nuke zombclops 100 to 0 and 3rd phase CC is just lulz with it.  I kinda feel the aiming enough was fine and the damage was a bit overkill lol.

Edited March 28 by Yuuko

[Well-met]

void walk will also get fixed eventually 

[Mike23Ua]

1 hour ago, Uedo said:

Thank you so much for saying this - It's really annoying speaking to console players at times. A keyboard and a mouse are both peripherals, your device should support them they're THAT common. It's not Klei's responsibility to make consoles support things that have been around for decades, A monitor is a peripheral - people would be annoyed if the console didn't support that.

It doesn’t quite work like that.. it is for one thing against the law for Klei to sell me a game that’s designed for using a Keyboard & Mouse to get the optimal intended gameplay experience. Without explicitly mentioning in the games product description or on the games box art package *Works best with Keyboard & Mouse*
 

Also Xbox has this policy where the product needs to be an Officially licensed Xbox product accessory (with Xbox official logo on the package) and they have been actively patching and software updating their consoles to intentionally remove the use ages of Unofficial products. (Mostly aimed at stopping players from using game controllers with rapid fire buttons but still)

I would be absolutely (and reasonably..) pissed at Klei if I needed to pay upward of 70$ For Xbox official KB & Mouse accessories just to enjoy playing DST.

What actually NEEDS to happen in this scenario is that Mouse controls (mainly point and click and drag and drop) need to either be Nerfed to be on par with the controller experience, OR Klei needs to add an In-Game digital mouse.

Alternatively they can just actually listen to the people who play with a controller to further optimize that to be more enjoyable so it doesn’t feel so painfully obvious that we are playing a game designed for KB+Mouse play.

And I can give One such suggestion right now actually..

Needing to click on something in your inventory and then drag it across your inventory to apply it onto another item is some straight up Point and click mouse type stuff.. it’s cumbersome and more annoying then it needs to be..

I don’t understand why if the player is hovering over the item in question: (such as Willows Embers or Wendy’s Ectoherbology Potions) that simply tapping Y doesn’t auto-Apply or refuel them.

Y on Xbox is only used to “Inspect” the world around you, so I’m pretty certain that if you were to hover over willows embers it won’t break the game for the Y prompt to Auto apply fuel into the lighter.

And that’s just one of many console improvements I could provide! I’ve got a whole entire laundry list of things that could improve the controller experience.

Im waiting to see what the upcoming changes to boats are (in a hotfix not yet released) that are aimed at improving controller play- I’ll for sure provide my feedback on that if after that hotfix I still feel it needs further optimizations.

[Yuuko]

1 minute ago, Mike23Ua said:

It doesn’t quite work like that.. it is for one thing against the law for Klei to sell me a game that’s designed for using a Keyboard & Mouse to get the optimal intended gameplay experience. Without explicitly mentioning in the games product description or on the games box art package *Works best with Keyboard & Mouse*

... against the law?  fr?  Hard to believe lol

1 minute ago, Mike23Ua said:

Also Xbox has this policy where the product needs to be an Officially licensed Xbox product accessory (with Xbox official logo on the package) and they have been actively patching and software updating their consoles to intentionally remove the use ages of Unofficial products. (Mostly aimed at stopping players from using game controllers with rapid fire buttons but still)

Yeah bring that up with XBox, its one of the most ridiculous recent fads that is mostly about XBox pushing to collect licensing fees than it is protecting players.  I deal with this a lot in the fighting game community b/c *MANY* people use 3rd party, often self-made fight sticks and we have ways to test that they are set up and functioning correctly.  Having to develop a spoofer to bypass the insane crack down on devices is a lot of effort and hurts the community more than anyone.  This isn't about cheaters, its about XBox being greedy.  Officially licensed controllers often have auto-fire buttons and can also be bad quality.

[EATZYOWAFFLEZ]

17 minutes ago, Yuuko said:

Sry, did you not see this?

That's a void walking problem imo, which I think should be patched out.

Also yeah I hadn't seen that lol. I kinda figured it existed though.

Edited March 28 by EATZYOWAFFLEZ

[Uedo]

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

It doesn’t quite work like that.. it is for one thing against the law for Klei to sell me a game that’s designed for using a Keyboard & Mouse to get the optimal intended gameplay experience. Without explicitly mentioning in the games product description or on the games box art package *Works best with Keyboard & Mouse*
 

Also Xbox has this policy where the product needs to be an Officially licensed Xbox product accessory (with Xbox official logo on the package) and they have been actively patching and software updating their consoles to intentionally remove the use ages of Unofficial products. (Mostly aimed at stopping players from using game controllers with rapid fire buttons but still)

I would be absolutely (and reasonably..) pissed at Klei if I needed to pay upward of 70$ For Xbox official KB & Mouse accessories just to enjoy playing DST.

What actually NEEDS to happen in this scenario is that Mouse controls (mainly point and click and drag and drop) need to either be Nerfed to be on par with the controller experience, OR Klei needs to add an In-Game digital mouse.

Alternatively they can just actually listen to the people who play with a controller to further optimize that to be more enjoyable so it doesn’t feel so painfully obvious that we are playing a game designed for KB+Mouse play.

And I can give One such suggestion right now actually..

Needing to click on something in your inventory and then drag it across your inventory to apply it onto another item is some straight up Point and click mouse type stuff.. it’s cumbersome and more annoying then it needs to be..

I don’t understand why if the player is hovering over the item in question: (such as Willows Embers or Wendy’s Ectoherbology Potions) that simply tapping Y doesn’t auto-Apply or refuel them.

Y on Xbox is only used to “Inspect” the world around you, so I’m pretty certain that if you were to hover over willows embers it won’t break the game for the Y prompt to Auto apply fuel into the lighter.

And that’s just one of many console improvements I could provide! I’ve got a whole entire laundry list of things that could improve the controller experience.

Im waiting to see what the upcoming changes to boats are (in a hotfix not yet released) that are aimed at improving controller play- I’ll for sure provide my feedback on that if after that hotfix I still feel it needs further optimizations.

No, it works like that. The console version is a port, the functionality for keyboard and mouse is present.

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

I would be absolutely (and reasonably..) pissed at Klei if I needed to pay upward of 70$ For Xbox official KB & Mouse accessories just to enjoy playing DST.

That is entirely the choice of Microsoft - We have macro's and rapid fire button presses here too Mike, it's infinitely easier as it's free.

1 hour ago, Yuuko said:

Yeah bring that up with XBox, its one of the most ridiculous recent fads that is mostly about XBox pushing to collect licensing fees than it is protecting players.  I deal with this a lot in the fighting game community b/c *MANY* people use 3rd party, often self-made fight sticks and we have ways to test that they are set up and functioning correctly.  Having to develop a spoofer to bypass the insane crack down on devices is a lot of effort and hurts the community more than anyone.  This isn't about cheaters, its about XBox being greedy.  Officially licensed controllers often have auto-fire buttons and can also be bad quality.

+1

[Ridley]

1 hour ago, Yuuko said:

 

Sry, did you not see this?

Is this Maxwell's fault or some exploits that were always living on borrowed time. 

[00petar00]

 

6 hours ago, Yuuko said:

When they first announced changing lureplant due to Scrappy concerns I suggested to just have the scrap pile disallow placement of anything within a certain range of it, or give Scrappy a leap attack back to his scrap pile that could damage things in the way.  I had no issue changing him to prevent collision with the scrap pile causing him to break his gear easily during the fight, etc.  Same with AFW.  He already senses when no player is in the arena and moves to pull the key out, this could easily be put on a max timer to auto-end preventing out-of-bounds shenanigans or give him some power to effect people outside of the arena.  It would also have been pretty easy to just have AFW attack lureplants.  There were plenty of ways to shore up these fights without nuking creative tools.

Why does lureplant need to not work on the werepig? Why is AFW having a timer to prevent out of bounds fine? These just remove player choices, I could understand some bosses being special but most of the new bosses are very similar with fatigue and charge mechanics and can't be cheesed using normal methods and the fights are usually done in the simplest way using a weapon and kiting.

4 hours ago, Dingle said:

I still don't get the comparison, sorry. Does Fuelweaver die instantly to gunpowder without his AI even kicking in? How much "only need to gather stuff" does it entail to make the gunpowder? Did the devs intend for gunpowder to do damage? Wasn't gunpowder already nerfed too? Is the entirety of killing FW with gunpowder as easy as plopping some lureplants down, and if so, why aren't you using that method instead? And so on.

You didn't cover the part where it makes sense that gunpowder or catapults could kill FW, but it doesn't really make sense for it to lose its AI against lureplants that it gets stuck on. You also didn't cover whether or not changing those other "too easy" things would make you happy. You also put a lot of words in my mouth. I like how you said "explain it one by one" and then avoided the first point (that you yourself brought up).

Everything you're saying seems like a hollow ploy to get lureplants back in as AI blockers.

I am just giving an explanation that most players arguing to keep this change don't really have valid reasons, you may have them as I have not seen you discuss much on the beta forums.

Its not a comparison 1 to 1 because it doesn't need to be to prove my point that some people don't want bosses to be easy yet these methods still keep them easy, they are more time consuming and require resource gathering or swapping character but that doesn't mean that boss isn't easy with them.

My point is that no matter what you do you aren't forced to use lureplant and you are just limiting other players from playing the game in the way they want and no one has ever come close to giving me a good argument against this. Only one was acceptable, that players using exploits/cheese can be first to kill the boss while the player that is gathering resources needs to wait for respawn and this doesn't really happen almost ever for fuelweaver as pub players won't usually fight that boss and players that want to kill FW will do it before spring ends as players that want to cheese need to wait for near the end of spring to have lureplants.

11 minutes ago, Ridley said:

Is this Maxwell's fault or some exploits that were always living on borrowed time. 

What is borrowed time to you? 5 years+? A lot of the exploits and cheese have existed since release of the bosses that they are used against or even for the previous bosses.

Brightshades weren't supposed to be the only mob coming out of the rift and players complained for a valid reason, it has been like a year and that is the only mob we have?