Cannibal flower change is not good

[Guille6785]

9 hours ago, Gashzer said:

C_spawn ("whatever you need",100000)

Or something like c_spawn('spear').components.weapon:SetDamage(16000) if you want to hand out weapons that can one shot ancient fuelweaver for the whole server. Why do you need the lureplant cheese to start with?

If you are a cheater why beat around the bush and use exploits? Just be a cheater and use console commands! U dont need any of these cheeses for farming resources. If you are done with survival and simply want to megabase to make pretty things just spawn what you need in!

"If you need to kite to kill an enemy, why even bother? Just use c_godmode since you're negating damage either way! Just be a cheater and use console commands!"

[Ridley]

4 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

What is borrowed time to you? 5 years+? A lot of the exploits and cheese have existed since release of the bosses that they are used against or even for the previous bosses.

I'm saying the exploits always had it coming in the end.

What? You thought because Klei left it alone meant they endorsed it or something? Bugs and exploits that only a youtube video would teach you are on a backburner for more prevalent issues. 5 year old bugs aren't grandfathered in as an intentional game mechanic.

[Gashzer]

6 hours ago, Guille6785 said:

"If you need to kite to kill an enemy, why even bother? Just use c_godmode since you're negating damage either way! Just be a cheater and use console commands!"

Difference being kiting wasn't patched out and klei intend us to dodge attacks like that. Lureplant blocking was a bug and patched out. If kiting was, for arguements sake, patched out for a button press dodge mechanic like wheeler then i would agree with you 

You know what? A dodge mechanic does sound better than kiting tbh maybe klei should rework the old school bare bones "kiting" that dst combat relys on! Good job Guille for highlighting this 

Edited March 29 by Gashzer

[cropo]

14 hours ago, Gashzer said:

Orrr instead of using cheese some of the more clunky parts of the fight can be smoothed:

I personally don't mind them reworking the fight, but even then I wouldn't want them to remove an existing trick to exploit it unless it was non-consensual and affected players not wanting to utilize it.

 

All this talk about how broken it is, how stupid it looks, how stupid players are for using it, etc is meaningless. Removing an option is removing an option; this particular exploit is so outlandishly impossible to accidentally stumble upon and harmless that the fervor people invoke for its removal can only make one assume pure, mindless malice on the part of the people cheering for its removal. 

[Evelo]

@Yuuko You did convince me the other day that the Lureplant was more akin to a Cheese rather than an Exploit because of the way the Lureplant is coded being a mob. While I think it should have been fixed and am glad it is, I do think the way they went about it is a little lackluster. Simply trampling over it doesn't reflect that the Lureplant is a mob and not a structure. As such allowing creatures, or certain creatures, to attack and deal damage to Lureplants would go quite a long ways in making it seem like a fair way to change it. If you had enough Lureplants, you could potentially wall it off for a very long time but it would eventually punch through.

I would also like to see this change with Lavae personally. Why they can't attack stone walls is so weird to me. They can hit players just fine with their leap headbutt thing.  Just my personal opinion that I feel would both fix some cheese strategies while simultaneously not just deleting a previous strategy completely. A lot, yes, but not fully.

[Gashzer]

53 minutes ago, cropo said:

I personally don't mind them reworking the fight, but even then I wouldn't want them to remove an existing trick to exploit it unless it was non-consensual and affected players not wanting to utilize it.

All bugs are non-consensual because DST is a coop game. In a public server i cant control if you will cheese a boss or not. So instead of recruiting me to help you, you could just go off solo and use the lureplant exploit boss to kill AFW without needing as much prep or skill.

Removing these bugs will indirectly encourage increased coop play throughout all public servers. 

57 minutes ago, cropo said:

All this talk about how broken it is, how stupid it looks, how stupid players are for using it, etc is meaningless. Removing an option is removing an option; this particular exploit is so outlandishly impossible to accidentally stumble upon and harmless that the fervor people invoke for its removal can only make one assume pure, mindless malice on the part of the people cheering for its removal. 

I never called people stupid for using bugs. I use dfly wall cheese all the time. But its up to klei to address why im using the wall cheese (pathfinding exploit) instead of fighting dfly legit. Which for me is dealing with larve is straight up not fun atm. I would rather dragonfly had a wider range of attacks or the larve behaved differently. 

Because from klei's point of view why did they even have spawning larve as a mechanic? Its so easily overcome by a very easy/resource efficient to perform bug. They might as well remove larve spawning all together.

No one on the forums is cheering for bug removal out of spite. We want bug removal because klei are leaving them in as "temporary fixes" for outdated boss designs or missing QoL features. So if klei removes the bug they will also rework the issue or boss in the case of AFW.

[cropo]

22 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

All bugs are non-consensual because DST is a coop game. In a public server i cant control if you will cheese a boss or not. So instead of recruiting me to help you, you could just go off solo and use the lureplant exploit boss to kill AFW without needing as much prep or skill.

Yeah if 5 lureplants spawn in spring, a single player goes and grabs them all without interference, and the server has been up and running for awhile in which case most of them would have been able to kill it legit anyway. Also, when playing on a public server, you waive your right to complain about things that other players chose to do, you're the one who entered public domain.

 

23 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Because from klei's point of view why did they even have spawning larve as a mechanic? Its so easily overcome by a very easy/resource efficient to perform bug

If you want to know the most likely reason, it's because Klei developed ANR bosses with the intention to be impossible to solo. They were sick of players soloing content when they begged and nagged Klei to make the game multiplayer, so they developed Toadstool, BQ, Dfly, AFW, etc to be impossible to solo. The problem is they grossly underestimated how creative the players could be and how they would use mechanics they previously put in the game to beat them solo.  Toadstool rots food, AOE slams multiple times to stop you from using armies, BQ roars to scare most traditional armies and overwhelms a single player with nothing but sheer numbers and a ground trail that specifically stops you from kiting if you somehow managed to kill all her bees and disable her. All the unique mechanics they have, like Toadstool getting faster and nearly immune to damage if his trees aren't cut down because they thought the player should have a group dividing tasks so one player could lure it and the others could chop the trees.

A lot of the exploits found were to circumvent this limitation, and later players simply got so stupidly good that they banged their head against a wall practicing it until it worked, and some players think this is an evolution of boss design when it was really just Klei trying to strike back against players playing the "wrong" way like they often have done in the past. 

New bosses with their phases and stun periods are a departure from this oppressive boss design, and simply aren't as demanding because they weren't balanced to be fought with 6 players which is why they're more comfortable and natural to fight.

32 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

I never called people stupid for using bugs

Not you, it's more of a generic statement on the overall group of people. You may not have said it, but there are a lot of people who are pro-change and have insulted the intelligence or "honor" of players doing the cheese.

[Yuuko]

7 hours ago, Evelo said:

I would also like to see this change with Lavae personally. Why they can't attack stone walls is so weird to me. They can hit players just fine with their leap headbutt thing.  Just my personal opinion that I feel would both fix some cheese strategies while simultaneously not just deleting a previous strategy completely. A lot, yes, but not fully.

Lavae behavior is to aggro onto players only.  This keeps you from being able to circle around until they re-aggro to something else the way you might run a hound wave through a beefalo herd.  They don't even like switching to Bernie when he does his taunt.  The reason they don't attack walls is because they won't switch aggro.  If Klei changed them to aggro walls then they would also aggro other stuff and you'd probably just get them distracted by the hounds near dfly, or other mobs instead.

7 hours ago, Gashzer said:

Because from klei's point of view why did they even have spawning larve as a mechanic? Its so easily overcome by a very easy/resource efficient to perform bug. They might as well remove larve spawning all together.

Building the wall is interacting with the game.  This is a proper way to deal with the lavae spawns.  From Klei's point of view whether you build a wall or use an ice staff you're still interacting with the threat.  "Might as well remove lavae spawn" ?  Do you think you wouldn't build the wall if lavae didn't spawn?

This is how I know y'all just haters.  The wall is as valid as an ice staff.  Even when ppl move the goal post "Its not really the wall its how they path through the pond" y'all not making sense.  If they were changed to path around ponds we'd just wall around each pond completely.  Its not a real difference.

[Gashzer]

16 minutes ago, Yuuko said:

Building the wall is interacting with the game.  This is a proper way to deal with the lavae spawns.  From Klei's point of view whether you build a wall or use an ice staff you're still interacting with the threat.  "Might as well remove lavae spawn" ?  Do you think you wouldn't build the wall if lavae didn't spawn?

This is how I know y'all just haters.  The wall is as valid as an ice staff.  Even when ppl move the goal post "Its not really the wall its how they path through the pond" y'all not making sense.  If they were changed to path around ponds we'd just wall around each pond completely.  Its not a real difference.

No no dont get me confused, walling around magma pits to block larve is 100% not a cheese, walls are meant to block things thats intended plus its more expensive and risky to do this (dfly guards middle magma pit).

Its the straight wall through a magma pit that bugs out the pathfinding AI thats the cheese. Larve should thematically travel through the magma pit or simply run around the wall.

Even walling yourself in a box is legit that comes with its own risk as well.

Edited March 29 by Gashzer

[Yuuko]

10 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

No no dont get me confused, walling around magma pits to block larve is 100% not a cheese, walls are meant to block things thats intended plus its more expensive and risky to do this (dfly guards middle magma pit).

Its the straight wall through a magma pit that bugs out the pathfinding AI thats the cheese. Larve should thematically travel through the magma pit or simply run around the wall.

Even walling yourself in a box is legit that comes with its own risk as well.

Then why the comment about Klei "might as welll remove lavae" ??

[Gashzer]

51 minutes ago, Yuuko said:

Then why the comment about Klei "might as welll remove lavae" ??

Because the straight wall strat is so beyond easy to pull off that they might as well remove them

[Guille6785]

8 hours ago, cropo said:

If you want to know the most likely reason, it's because Klei developed ANR bosses with the intention to be impossible to solo. They were sick of players soloing content when they begged and nagged Klei to make the game multiplayer, so they developed Toadstool, BQ, Dfly, AFW, etc to be impossible to solo. The problem is they grossly underestimated how creative the players could be and how they would use mechanics they previously put in the game to beat them solo.  Toadstool rots food, AOE slams multiple times to stop you from using armies, BQ roars to scare most traditional armies and overwhelms a single player with nothing but sheer numbers and a ground trail that specifically stops you from kiting if you somehow managed to kill all her bees and disable her. All the unique mechanics they have, like Toadstool getting faster and nearly immune to damage if his trees aren't cut down because they thought the player should have a group dividing tasks so one player could lure it and the others could chop the trees.

A lot of the exploits found were to circumvent this limitation, and later players simply got so stupidly good that they banged their head against a wall practicing it until it worked, and some players think this is an evolution of boss design when it was really just Klei trying to strike back against players playing the "wrong" way like they often have done in the past. 

New bosses with their phases and stun periods are a departure from this oppressive boss design, and simply aren't as demanding because they weren't balanced to be fought with 6 players which is why they're more comfortable and natural to fight.

none of this is true, there is no evidence to back up any of what you said here

[_zwb]

4 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

none of this is true, there is no evidence to back up any of what you said here

Well, at least for toadstool it was not intended to be fought alone, they said that on a developer stream.

[grm9]

9 hours ago, Gashzer said:

Its so easily overcome by a very easy/resource efficient to perform bug. They might as well remove larve spawning all together

not everyone are going to do it the easiest way, especially considering that it isn't most efficient since it's slow

7 minutes ago, _zwb said:

Well, at least for toadstool it was not intended to be fought alone, they said that on a developer stream

doesn't matter now anyway, considering all bosses are more fun to do solo in comparison to with other players including toadstool

Edited March 29 by grm9

[Guille6785]

15 minutes ago, _zwb said:

Well, at least for toadstool it was not intended to be fought alone, they said that on a developer stream.

not intended to solo =/= deliberately designed to be impossible to solo

[Dingle]

19 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

 I am just giving an explanation that most players arguing to keep this change don't really have valid reasons, you may have them as I have not seen you discuss much on the beta forums.

Its not a comparison 1 to 1 because it doesn't need to be to prove my point that some people don't want bosses to be easy yet these methods still keep them easy, they are more time consuming and require resource gathering or swapping character but that doesn't mean that boss isn't easy with them.

My point is that no matter what you do you aren't forced to use lureplant and you are just limiting other players from playing the game in the way they want and no one has ever come close to giving me a good argument against this. Only one was acceptable, that players using exploits/cheese can be first to kill the boss while the player that is gathering resources needs to wait for respawn and this doesn't really happen almost ever for fuelweaver as pub players won't usually fight that boss and players that want to kill FW will do it before spring ends as players that want to cheese need to wait for near the end of spring to have lureplants.

Sure, I'll bite. I have two big reasons why I like to see exploits patched. Note that I generally don't go out of my way to get them patched, I mostly started talking about this because I saw so many people demand that the lureplant change be reverted.

1. I think the player base tolerating exploits leads to a chilling effect on getting the base reasons for the exploit fixed. Consciously or not, I think exploits serve as a band-aid for the devs on things that players don't like. Having the devs not fix the exploits means that they can wait several years to improve the base content. It negatively affects my trust for the devs to really change any of the older content for the better, so I'm pleasantly surprised when they do.

Fuelweaver is awful for console players? Whatever. They can get it stuck on a lureplant.
The tentapillar hunt to find the atrium is widely hated, but there's no guaranteed other solution for this unless you're lucky with map generation? Whatever. They can just voidwalk.
Ancient Guardian (pre-rework) a complete mess of a fight? Whatever, people get it stuck on the pillars anyway.

2. I think having an exploit that blows away any other creative way to handle a challenge is bad for the game's health.

For all this talk about Player Creativity and Emergent Gameplay, it really seems like people only really cared about the lureplant punching bag methods on Fuelweaver and Toadstool.

You use gunpowder and catapults as a tactic for this argument. It makes me wonder why you're not using those, instead of the lureplants. I'm guessing, correct me if I'm wrong, that it's because the lureplant method is way easier. Why bother farming the gunpowder, or making the catapults? Wait until spring and get a couple lureplants. Or if you can't wait that long, get some spider nests. Actually, I don't even think people were fighting much for the spider nests except as an inferior option to the lureplants when they were first changed. Maybe even that cheese was seen as too inferior to use because you might have to fight some spiders.

It doesn't really seem to encourage Player Creativity if there's one method that's vastly easier and more effective than any others.

Those are my two general reasons for being against exploits in games. I hope you can see where I'm coming from, if not agree with either.

[Szczuku]

I think getting rid of the exploit and improving controller support was a wise move on Klei's part

Infact, I hope they fix voidwalking and pathfinding exploits next, while improving somewhat the gameplay aspects that led people to using these exploits (aside from plain ol' laziness lmao)

[Yuuko]

1 hour ago, Gashzer said:

Because the straight wall strat is so beyond easy to pull off that they might as well remove them

That nowhere near supports the conclusion they "might as well remove lavae."  The wall design cost and ease is similar, and rocks spawn right there anyway...  Its not like its tough to wall up every pond vs 1 pond to exploit pathing.  The point is the lavae effects how you play the boss.  Plus not everyone uses a wall.  In the vast majority of my Dfly fights I don't use a wall, not because walls aren't useful but just because I've found a few other ways I'm preferring right now - namely getting the lavae all on Bernie, then pan-fluting Dfly and lunar nuking all of the lavae at once.  Of course I could always go back to a wall if I wanted, if I was playing Winona or Wes I probably would.  Whether I wall around every pond, or do 1 stretch around a pond doesn't really matter.

1 hour ago, grm9 said:

doesn't matter now anyway, considering all bosses are more fun to do solo in comparison to with other players including toadstool

This is facts lol.  For all of the people talking about muli-player scaling etc I would hate it if the bosses health were reduced.  It actually feels anti-climactic fighting Misery Toad with ~4 capable players b/c its dead quicker than normal toad.  AFW is a totally different experience b/c you really can half-ass the job and pass the fight.  You don't need any coordination between disabling shadow hands and woven at the same time, just make sure someone is on each job and you're good.  Even combat characters usually go through 2 patterns of summons, a good group can do it in 1.

I think solo AFW is probably the hardest fight in the game, but multiplayer it drops below CK if only b/c if the boat sinks the party is essentially wiped.  The threat of failure is actually on the table still lol.

39 minutes ago, Dingle said:

For all this talk about Player Creativity and Emergent Gameplay, it really seems like people only really cared about the lureplant punching bag methods on Fuelweaver and Toadstool.

The focus is largely on AFW because that is the most egregious example of lureplant blocking and lureplant blocking is what was under attack.  It makes sense too attack the feature with its most egregious use.  Few mentioned it being used in moonstone farming or blocking other bosses where it only holds them still but you gotta dodge their attacks like normal.  I have a setup with lureplants and Klaus to prevent spell casts and leaps, but I still need to dodge claw swipes.  In this way lureplant blocking is a lot more on par with using a wall on dfly - which is a big reason why I'd rather they tackled Scrappy and AFW lureplant blocking issues with those fights themselves rather than nuke blocking all around.

I don't *need* lureplant blocking to work on AFW and really I wouldn't mind if that was targeted for removal by changing his behavior.  I've even made my own suggestions for both AFW and Scrappy to deal with the lureplant issue without patching out blocking entirely.  The atrium gate already senses no player is in the arena and will have AFW walk to the gate to remove the key.  A timer could auto-eject the key to reset the fight whether AFW makes it there or not.  AFW could also get some attacks that happen outside of the arena, or just be able to aggro on lureplants.  I'd be fine with any of these because they would be justified under protecting the integrity of the AFW fight without stripping the lureplants as a tool across the board.

[Mike23Ua]

Building a Wall to fight dragonfly only feels like a valid strategy when you go through all the EXTRA Effort of walling off every single one of her lava ponds with square of walls around each pond so Larvae simply can’t even get out..

Building the Great Wall of China and mobs being too stupid to path find their way around it or swim through the lava they spawn out of.. is exploiting the games A.I. Behavior.

It’s like a trail of ants… if you put something in their path, they’ll go around whatever you placed and continue towards their destination.

So Walls are valid, Getting mobs stuck on a single line of wall is cheating the A.I.

That said… you could just build a wall that was long enough stretched outward that as they try to pathfind their way around it they’ll run out of life and Die.

Larvae will naturally die on their own after so long.. so using a wall is very much an intended strategy, having them get hung up on a wall they could’ve went around- Is not…

[Yuuko]

55 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

That said… you could just build a wall that was long enough stretched outward that as they try to pathfind their way around it they’ll run out of life and Die.

That said the distinction is a bit ridiculous to get hung up over.  There are many ways to build the walls, so what if 1 way takes less resources than another?  Gonna waste $10k cost of dev time just so people build the wall slightly differently, requiring no more resources?

That kinda attitude just finds something to complain about, so its worth very little to consider.

[Mike23Ua]

4 minutes ago, Yuuko said:

That said the distinction is a bit ridiculous to get hung up over.  There are many ways to build the walls, so what if 1 way takes less resources than another?  Gonna waste $10k cost of dev time just so people build the wall slightly differently, requiring no more resources?

That kinda attitude just finds something to complain about, so its worth very little to consider.

Maybe for you… but let’s not forget that the entire core of DST is collecting resources… that’s literally the entire gameplay.

Coincidentally it’s also why some people find skill trees to be unacceptable, while they at the same time had absolutely no problem with character reworks.

Wickerbottom actually has to go out and collect all the resources to build her book collection to obtain her powerful perks..

Willow pretty much just spawns into the game on day 1 with everything already.

So actually yes, I do think it would be beneficial to Klei’s development time to require players to put a little more effort into gathering a few more resources & building a longer wall.

[grm9]

3 hours ago, Dingle said:

1. I think the player base tolerating exploits leads to a chilling effect on getting the base reasons for the exploit fixed. Consciously or not, I think exploits serve as a band-aid for the devs on things that players don't like. Having the devs not fix the exploits means that they can wait several years to improve the base content. It negatively affects my trust for the devs to really change any of the older content for the better, so I'm pleasantly surprised when they do

the devs could also just not remove the bugs after changing something if possible, lazy explorer controller changes were entirely unrelated to FW not killing lureplants by trying to go through them

3 hours ago, Dingle said:

It doesn't really seem to encourage Player Creativity if there's one method that's vastly easier and more effective than any others

most people won't get to know that it's a thing on their own without searching for it or seeing someone else use it and nothing prevents you from fighting the boss without cheese if you have more fun that way, even before lureplants cheese got removed a lot of people were fighting FW without cheese, people can keep looking for strats until they find a strat that they consider as fun

2 hours ago, Szczuku said:

I think getting rid of the exploit and improving controller support was a wise move on Klei's part

why write that without any reasoning?

2 hours ago, Szczuku said:

aside from plain ol' laziness lmao

it doesn't apply in context of games, people are playing those to do something that they enjoy, laziness is avoiding work or something you don't like doing, which you shouldn't be forced to do in games anyway

2 hours ago, Szczuku said:

Infact, I hope they fix voidwalking and pathfinding exploits next, while improving somewhat the gameplay aspects that led people to using these exploits

or they could just change anything without removing voidwalking assuming removing it won't be required for changing something through the fastest/most convenient/cleanest way

Edited March 29 by grm9

[Dingle]

18 minutes ago, grm9 said:

the devs could also just not remove the bugs after changing something if possible, lazy explorer controller changes were entirely unrelated to FW not killing lureplants by trying to go through them

most people won't get to know that it's a thing on their own without searching for it or seeing someone else use it and nothing prevents you from fighting the boss without cheese if you have more fun that way, even before lureplants cheese got removed a lot of people were fighting FW without cheese, people can keep looking for strats until they find a strat that they consider as fun

I thought the lazy explorer controller changes were related to making the fight more feasible for controller players? Hence the devs putting that in, among other things, instead of reverting the lureplant change. "Entirely unrelated" confuses me due to that.

If the lureplant method isn't the vastly dominant cheese method, and other methods are just as viable to you, what's your personal reason for fighting so strongly to keep the lureplant method in?

[Mike23Ua]

3 minutes ago, Dingle said:

I thought the lazy explorer controller changes were related to making the fight more feasible for controller players? Hence the devs putting that in, among other things, instead of reverting the lureplant change. "Entirely unrelated" confuses me due to that.

If the lureplant method isn't the vastly dominant cheese method, and other methods are just as viable to you, what's your personal reason for fighting so strongly to keep the lureplant method in?

From what little information I’ve been able to gather online it seems that these players are upset about the lureplant changes, but NOT for the reasons they’re listing here.. and it actually has nothing to do with cheesing AFW’s fight. Instead it seems to be about no longer being able to pin in mobs that the Lureplants used to be able to pin in.

Someone mentioned earlier for example using them as a means to pin in Bearger so he became a pretty base decoration and they didn’t need to teleport him away to lunar island.

I think there’s more to it than what’s actually being said in this thread.

[grm9]

12 minutes ago, Dingle said:

I thought the lazy explorer controller changes were related to making the fight more feasible for controller players? Hence the devs putting that in, among other things, instead of reverting the lureplant change. "Entirely unrelated" confuses me due to that

i meant that they didn't need to fix lureplants to change controller lazy explorer stuff, lazy explorer code and lureplant code are entirely unrelated

12 minutes ago, Dingle said:

If the lureplant method isn't the vastly dominant cheese method, and other methods are just as viable to you, what's your personal reason for fighting so strongly to keep the lureplant method in?

because that ruins other people's fun and they might end up removing more stuff e.g. voidwalking which i personally use, although i didn't mean that there are better cheeses even though there were but they also got patched, but that they can do the fight without cheese if that'll be more fun for them in comparison to using cheese

Edited March 29 by grm9