Cannibal flower change is not good

[Gashzer]

3 hours ago, Gi-Go said:

It proves nothing. People like to optimize their world and create auto farms for bosses and resources. It's satisfying to people that's all there is to it.

C_spawn ("whatever you need",100000)

Or something like c_spawn('spear').components.weapon:SetDamage(16000) if you want to hand out weapons that can one shot ancient fuelweaver for the whole server. Why do you need the lureplant cheese to start with?

If you are a cheater why beat around the bush and use exploits? Just be a cheater and use console commands! U dont need any of these cheeses for farming resources. If you are done with survival and simply want to megabase to make pretty things just spawn what you need in!

3 hours ago, Gi-Go said:

 You think lureplant cheese is boring? Who asked? 

No one asked you to complain about Klei bug patching either yet here you are.

Edited March 28 by Gashzer

[00petar00]

Wasn't this supposed to be reversed for old bosses?

Game is becoming less and less fun for me with changes like these. I farm the bosses tens of times on the same world and I don't want to fight them. I still don't have to as there are other methods but who knows how long that will last If klei keeps removing them.

It started with loot stash and klaus being able to pass through because of Wanda which I can agree that I abused to finish the fight faster but that would be possible to anyone with howlitzer or tail 'o three cats too and it affects all characters that used loot stash to block lunge if they don't want to have to walk so far away to dodge it.

After that we had stunlocking changes that no one asked for again because of Wanda that I can still mostly ignore when I play her and it punished every other character more than her. For example I can still kill MacTusk by getting close to him and tanking a hound hit because of alarming clock range, so even if he isn't stunlocked he can't escape, another option is to one shot blue hound and freeze MacTusk.

Bee Queen boat second fix was the one that removed the pathfinding feature that you would call bug because bee queen doesn't move on boat but this wasn't a bug because klei made it that way so Bee Queen doesn't fly over water where you can't hit her.

Now lureplant "fix" when it was considered a feature for so many years, I won't use that as an argument for it to stay but it is one way to kill a boss that many vocal people on the forums are up in arms about because it is too easy for them yet there is gunpowder,catapults or even similar methods to lureplant that still work but I won't mention these because I know there will be a bug report about it, the players that want to know will be able to find out but at least If they want to report it make them work for it.

My argument against these changes was the one that many of us have mentioned on the beta threads, It just removes an option to kill a boss that no one else is forced to use unless it is majority of the players on the server and at that point they don't really have a right to complain as much. Sandbox games are about choices and we have less and less of them with the new bosses that feel boring after first few kills for this exact reason. Sandbox games are about emergent gameplay and not telling player that this must be done in one or a couple of ways but that there are a lot more strategies that they don't even know about.

Edited March 28 by 00petar00

[cropo]

15 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

that no one else is forced to use

Honestly the way people talk these days, it seems that's an even bigger crime than if it was forced.

[Gashzer]

3 minutes ago, cropo said:

Honestly the way people talk these days, it seems that's an even bigger crime than if it was forced.

The way gamers nowadays settle for mediocrity from game developers is shocking.

Dont settle for bugs, if a boss is really boring to refight all the time, rework/implement more refined ways to automate it that isnt glitchy as f.

Klei are doing a great job in the quality of life department atm. They deserve praise right now.

 

[Gi-Go]

52 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

C_spawn ("whatever you need",100000)

Or something like c_spawn('spear').components.weapon:SetDamage(16000) if you want to hand out weapons that can one shot ancient fuelweaver for the whole server. Why do you need the lureplant cheese to start with?

If you are a cheater why beat around the bush and use exploits? Just be a cheater and use console commands! U dont need any of these cheeses for farming resources. If you are done with survival and simply want to megabase to make pretty things just spawn what you need in!

Horrible take, like every other take you make. I think you're just a troll, honestly. If you fail to see the difference it's clear you aren't even capable of understanding other people's perspective. Why even bother chatting then. You got your fix yet here you are still arguing with people. 

[Yuuko]

1 hour ago, Gashzer said:

C_spawn ("whatever you need",100000)

Or something like c_spawn('spear').components.weapon:SetDamage(16000) if you want to hand out weapons that can one shot ancient fuelweaver for the whole server. Why do you need the lureplant cheese to start with?

If you are a cheater why beat around the bush and use exploits? Just be a cheater and use console commands! U dont need any of these cheeses for farming resources. If you are done with survival and simply want to megabase to make pretty things just spawn what you need in!

No one asked you to complain about Klei bug patching either yet here you are.

I went over this before, so please pay attention this time and fr internalize this or I'm just gonna report you for trolling at this point.

Console commands, using server mods, etc require admin access and are "cheating"  b/c they actually change the game.

Exploits are not cheating.  They do not require admin access, and do not change the game.  They are using the game's own mechanics.

Exploits are used on all levels of play.  Knowing an enemy has to stop moving to attack is exploited by players simply running passed mobs b/c the mob can never hit a target moving away.

This retort of "just use admin commands" is extremely ignorant of the issue, and is factually an invalid response to the subject.  Might as well say "just use kill() command instead of fighting b/c you're just doing damage anyway."

36 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

The way gamers nowadays settle for mediocrity from game developers is shocking.

Dont settle for bugs, if a boss is really boring to refight all the time, rework/implement more refined ways to automate it that isnt glitchy as f.

Klei are doing a great job in the quality of life department atm. They deserve praise right now.

 

Lureplant blocking wasn't a bug.  Nothing about the code behavior was unexpected from what existed in the game.  Many structures in the game have different effects when interacting with various mobs, the variety is a feature of the sandbox game focused on emergent gameplay.

And again, my point - what lureplant enabled, Maxwell does all that and more.  If you're problem with lureplant strats was how they "broke bosses" or "exploited ai" or whatever, well Maxwell does that.  Removing lureplant doesn't stop us from halting Scrappy pig's scavenging, or cheesing AFW.  This whole crusade against these things is petty.  These didn't impact anyone's play who weren't purposefully using them.  Horrible change.

Edited March 28 by Yuuko

[Gi-Go]

36 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Klei are doing a great job in the quality of life department atm. They deserve praise right now.

They are doing mid job, at best. 

Basic need for proper chests blocked by late game content, cleaning robot having little to no uses, no solution to nonstackables, instead they made tall regular chests redundant. 

[grm9]

16 minutes ago, Yuuko said:

I went over this before, so please pay attention this time and fr internalize this or I'm just gonna report you for trolling at this point.

Console commands, using server mods, etc require admin access and are "cheating"  b/c they actually change the game.

Exploits are not cheating.  They do not require admin access, and do not change the game.  They are using the game's own mechanics.

Exploits are used on all levels of play.  Knowing an enemy has to stop moving to attack is exploited by players simply running passed mobs b/c the mob can never hit a target moving away.

This retort of "just use admin commands" is extremely ignorant of the issue, and is factually an invalid response to the subject.  Might as well say "just use kill() command instead of fighting b/c you're just doing damage anyway."

Lureplant blocking wasn't a bug.  Nothing about the code behavior was unexpected from what existed in the game.  Many structures in the game have different effects when interacting with various mobs, the variety is a feature of the sandbox game focused on emergent gameplay

why are you bothering with this if they admitted that they're arguing only for klei to add stuff they want lol

even if it was a joke, their arguments are still nonsensical, elitist and they clearly just want people who play differently in comparison to them to suffer

Edited March 28 by grm9

[Dingle]

4 minutes ago, Yuuko said:

Lureplant blocking wasn't a bug.  Nothing about the code behavior was unexpected from what existed in the game.  Many structures in the game have different effects when interacting with various mobs, the variety is a feature of the sandbox game focused on emergent gameplay.

I remember someone posting the details on this, where it was more of a design oversight than a bug. So you're not completely wrong. I think you ignored the explanation, though. Maybe you didn't see it.

They fixed the design oversight this update.

Whenever I hear the "emergent gameplay" claim I remember how the lureplant bug exploit cheese design oversight looked like. Fuelweaver running into two lureplants, mindlessly, forever, trying to get to the gate. Then I frown. Then I laugh because I see "emergent gameplay" has become the refrain for this. It looks like a really hollow ploy.

1 hour ago, 00petar00 said:

Wasn't this supposed to be reversed for old bosses?

Now lureplant "fix" when it was considered a feature for so many years, I won't use that as an argument for it to stay but it is one way to kill a boss that many vocal people on the forums are up in arms about because it is too easy for them yet there is gunpowder,catapults or even similar methods to lureplant that still work but I won't mention these because I know there will be a bug report about it, the players that want to know will be able to find out but at least If they want to report it make them work for it.

They were going to reverse it until they could get in some changes for console players, I think. They got that in quickly, so they probably didn't reverse it because they got in the changes.

Gunpowder and catapults 1. Take resources 2. Are being used for their intended purpose. I don't get the comparison. Are you being sincere?

[Yuuko]

33 minutes ago, Dingle said:

I remember someone posting the details on this, where it was more of a design oversight than a bug. So you're not completely wrong. I think you ignored the explanation, though. Maybe you didn't see it.

They fixed the design oversight this update.

Whenever I hear the "emergent gameplay" claim I remember how the lureplant bug exploit cheese design oversight looked like. Fuelweaver running into two lureplants, mindlessly, forever, trying to get to the gate. Then I frown. Then I laugh because I see "emergent gameplay" has become the refrain for this. It looks like a really hollow ploy.

The exploit for lureplant with AFW is more about voidlwalking than lureplant blocking.  There are many other things lureplants were used for, and this removes them.

Its hard to call it an oversight imo ~ the developers would have to be coding very badly for that to be the case, and perhaps that is.  I did read that person's response, but I haven't looked at the code from before those changes to see the difference.  Code reuse and standardization is pretty basic practice though.  Making a combat system you're going to have an attack function that is going to be called the same for each attack, and it is going to handle what happens when a thing is attacked and everything that responds to it.  If they had many interactions of things getting walked into and made different functions to handle what happened when this occurred, it sounds like on some level they wanted variance.

The point of emergent gameplay is to give players various tools and let them do with it what they will.  Having walls that mobs will path around, health and can be attacked, and get crushed by bosses vs having statues that mobs path through, don't have hit points, and get crushed by bosses vs having lureplants that mobs path through, have hit points and can be attacked, but bosses don't crush - gives us 3 different tools.  All of them were working according to their code and supporting player creativity in the game.

But again at my point here - was the lureplant the problem?  b/c whatever bug exploit cheese design oversite super hype character the devs favored over all others strategy the lureplant enabled is still available in game b/c the actual problems weren't the lureplant.  Maxwell is in game and does the same thing.

Don't like AFW getting stuck by lureplant and held F to death?  Why is it okay for Maxwell to do this?

Don't like Scrappy being unable to return to his scrap pile for a weapon?  Why is it okay for Maxwell to do this?

Lureplant wasn't negatively effecting players who weren't choosing to use it.  If someone was trying to lureplant cheese AFW or Scrappy with other players who didn't want to, then the cheese would fail.  Just stay in the arena with AFW and the lureplant will not help.  Attack lureplants and they go down pretty quick.  The players not exploiting lureplants naturally have veto here.  If someone actually beat you to AFW and beat it with lureplant before you got there - then whether they use lureplant or not they would have beaten you to it, so you did not lose anything for lureplant.

To me this change is a lot more about picking winners and losers than it is "fixing" any aspect of the game.  Its about trying to force "sword armor f" combat over creatively building the world to suit our desires - ya know, playing in the sandbox.  No one accidentally blocked AFW with a lureplant and voidwalked to defeat him.  No one accidentally blocked of Scrappy from his pile.  If players wanted to do these things they still can, so ppl who hate how this "breaks the game" are still going to see the game break.  We just lose a creative option.

 

Picking winners and losers, and reducing options like this is bad.  For example before the first refresh cycle started Wolfgang was the only real damage steroid.  2x damage is a pretty big outlier in the cast, with second place Wig at only 1.25x.  In this spread of characters Wolfgang was a problem because IF you wanted to do more damage he was the only choice.  In the refreshes more dps options were added.  Wendy + Abi, Warly, and Wanda were added before Wolfgang's rework as other viable damage options, each with their pro's and con's.  Even though nothing changed with Wolfgang previous to this, just having other options with other characters made balance feel significantly better.

That is basically what is happening here, but in reverse.  Before Maxwell got his prison I could see removing lureplants under the idea of just not allowing boss blocking because it would be an outlier.  With Maxwell having a superior blocking though, its more like they are just taking away some options to do the thing, and not for very good reasons.  Aside from Wormwood start, which means you have reduced healing *and* sacrificed points into his plant crafting section, there aren't many ways to get lureplants anyway.  A player would have to go out of their way to get this, bring them, and set up whatever structure system is going to help them - whether its AFW, farming moon rocks, pinning Klaus, w/e.

Edited March 28 by Yuuko

[Dingle]

Voidwalking should be removed too, yeah.

3 minutes ago, Yuuko said:

But again at my point here - was the lureplant the problem?  b/c whatever bug exploit cheese design oversite super hype character the devs favored over all others strategy the lureplant enabled is still available in game b/c the actual problems weren't the lureplant.  Maxwell is in game and does the same thing.

Don't like AFW getting stuck by lureplant and held F to death?  Why is it okay for Maxwell to do this?

Don't like Scrappy being unable to return to his scrap pile for a weapon?  Why is it okay for Maxwell to do this?

To me this change is a lot more about picking winners and losers than it is "fixing" any aspect of the game.  No one accidentally blocked AFW with a lureplant and voidwalked to defeat him.  No one accidentally blocked of Scrappy from his pile.  If players wanted to do these things they still can, so ppl who hate how this "breaks the game" are still going to see the game break.  It won't feature a lureplant, just other things instead.

Would you (and the couple others above) be happy with Maxwell roots, voidwalking, catapults, gunpowder, etc being unable to be used on Fuelweaver being nerfed or removed? Or is this all just an argumentative strategy to get the lureplant method put back in?

I could look at Maxwell's version of this strategy if you post a video and tell you my thoughts on it versus the lureplants, if you're really interested. If it's not an argument tactic like "lureplants nerfed? but that about gunpowder?" above.

[Cruvimaster]

The ability for people to create countless repeated topics with the sole purpose of wanting to force developers to return with an exploid is incredible. If they had spent all that time and energy training the Ancient Fuelweaver they would already be defeating him from Wes.

[00petar00]

 

1 hour ago, Dingle said:

They were going to reverse it until they could get in some changes for console players, I think. They got that in quickly, so they probably didn't reverse it because they got in the changes.

The update is live and I think there was a week and a half or longer when they said that it would be reversed so it is very possible that they decided against it. 

1 hour ago, Dingle said:

Gunpowder and catapults 1. Take resources 2. Are being used for their intended purpose. I don't get the comparison. Are you being sincere?

That is the argument some people are making because boss dies instantly and there is no difficulty as you only need to gather stuff and mostly only gunpowder fits that category because gems can be farmed with varg farm, ruins, dragonfly, duped, hounds so you will have plenty anyway no matter what you do.

39 minutes ago, Dingle said:

Would you (and the couple others above) be happy with Maxwell roots, voidwalking, catapults, gunpowder, etc being unable to be used on Fuelweaver being nerfed or removed? Or is this all just an argumentative strategy to get the lureplant method put back in?

Why can't these be used as an argument? The reasons players use against lureplants like you is immersion, too easy, boring, jealousy.

I'll explain it one by one:

Easy - player choice whether to use lureplants or not.

Boring - again player choice whether to use lureplants or not.

Jealousy - players don't like that they kill the boss as intended but others can cheese it, they want to feel superior when they obtain the gear when there are already options that allow for anyone kill any boss like the stated methods in the quote.

1 hour ago, Dingle said:

Whenever I hear the "emergent gameplay" claim I remember how the lureplant bug exploit cheese design oversight looked like. Fuelweaver running into two lureplants, mindlessly, forever, trying to get to the gate. Then I frown. Then I laugh because I see "emergent gameplay" has become the refrain for this. It looks like a really hollow ploy

See what your argument against lureplants is? Basically breaking your immersion when players that don't care can use it but you don't have to.

 

 

Edited March 28 by 00petar00

[Yuuko]

19 minutes ago, Dingle said:

Voidwalking should be removed too, yeah.

Would you (and the couple others above) be happy with Maxwell roots, voidwalking, catapults, gunpowder, etc being unable to be used on Fuelweaver being nerfed or removed? Or is this all just an argumentative strategy to get the lureplant method put back in?

I could look at Maxwell's version of this strategy if you post a video and tell you my thoughts on it versus the lureplants, if you're really interested. If it's not an argument tactic like "lureplants nerfed? but that about gunpowder?" above.

Fixing voidwalking and changing AFW behavior is fine.  When they first announced changing lureplant due to Scrappy concerns I suggested to just have the scrap pile disallow placement of anything within a certain range of it, or give Scrappy a leap attack back to his scrap pile that could damage things in the way.  I had no issue changing him to prevent collision with the scrap pile causing him to break his gear easily during the fight, etc.  Same with AFW.  He already senses when no player is in the arena and moves to pull the key out, this could easily be put on a max timer to auto-end preventing out-of-bounds shenanigans or give him some power to effect people outside of the arena.  It would also have been pretty easy to just have AFW attack lureplants.  There were plenty of ways to shore up these fights without nuking creative tools.

I think lureplant, catapult, and gunpowder don't need to be changed.

Gunpowder already got a huge unwarranted nerf.  Sure it could 1-shot bosses *if you stacked enough,* but it took so much to actually farm up these stacks that players were either significantly delaying the fights to farm gunpowder or it was already late game.

Klaus sack also didn't need to be changed.  The collision could be exploited by Wanda to KO Klaus without allowing any attacks or spell casts, but even with removing the collision she can still do this.  All this change did was remove the skillful technique of any character to use Klaus' sack to block his leap rather than stacking move speed and running way, or practicing the very-tight timing of dodging it from melee.

These are all tools with uses that can reward creative play and already have interactions in the game which prevent them from being catch-all killers.  Removing them is only removing player expression, creativity, and agency.  None of these effect players who don't want to use them as all of the fights are still able to be directly engaged if that is what the player prefers.

A lot of people who use these exploits are using it only to make the fight farmable.  I can and do fight AFW "legit" often, my first kill in every world is done straight up because its fun and feels like a good achievement to pull off.  When I return to reset ruins or get another bone armor / helm I might not want to spend so much time and energy so I exploit and minimize the cost / time of the fight.  Utilizing the world to minimize and automate is also a major fun point of the game.

There are people who aren't able to defeat AFW who will use exploits to clear it - and for that I say, so what?  imo these strategies work as a sort of in-game difficulty slider.  Dfly too hard?  build a wall, now the fight is easier.  Want it harder?  Don't build a wall, don't use a pan flute, have fun with the challenge.

Really its the trash takes like VVV that really plague this discussion.  In order to get to AFW you have to clear AG and Shadow Pieces first, so no one is completely skill-lessly getting to the AFW fight.  These takes amount to "no, play the game the way I want you to play" which is kinda dumb considering all of DST's history, and the "your world your rules" style.  Its especially disheartening to see the Klei Devs officially have such a position.

11 minutes ago, Cruvimaster said:

The ability for people to create countless repeated topics with the sole purpose of wanting to force developers to return with an exploid is incredible. If they had spent all that time and energy training the Ancient Fuelweaver they would already be defeating him from Wes.

 

[Gashzer]

1 hour ago, Yuuko said:

I went over this before, so please pay attention this time and fr internalize this or I'm just gonna report you for trolling at this point.

Console commands, using server mods, etc require admin access and are "cheating"  b/c they actually change the game.

Exploits are not cheating.  They do not require admin access, and do not change the game.  They are using the game's own mechanics.

Exploits are used on all levels of play.  Knowing an enemy has to stop moving to attack is exploited by players simply running passed mobs b/c the mob can never hit a target moving away.

This retort of "just use admin commands" is extremely ignorant of the issue, and is factually an invalid response to the subject.  Might as well say "just use kill() command instead of fighting b/c you're just doing damage anyway."

Lureplant blocking wasn't a bug.  Nothing about the code behavior was unexpected from what existed in the game.  Many structures in the game have different effects when interacting with various mobs, the variety is a feature of the sandbox game focused on emergent gameplay.

And again, my point - what lureplant enabled, Maxwell does all that and more.  If you're problem with lureplant strats was how they "broke bosses" or "exploited ai" or whatever, well Maxwell does that.  Removing lureplant doesn't stop us from halting Scrappy pig's scavenging, or cheesing AFW.  This whole crusade against these things is petty.  These didn't impact anyone's play who weren't purposefully using them.  Horrible change.

Klei patched lureplant blocking so it was a bug or unintended mechanic. 

This is a 100% fact as of now. No matter either of our opinions.

1 hour ago, grm9 said:

why are you bothering with this if they admitted that they're arguing only for klei to add stuff they want lol

even if it was a joke, their arguments are still nonsensical, elitist and they clearly just want people who play differently in comparison to them to suffer

Ofc i am here to promote what i want to see in DST. Thats what you and everyone is doing here so why are you implying im the only one being selfish here.

What part of my arguments are nonsensical? 

Im the opposite of elitist.. i want ancient fuelweaver fight to be easier so its more fun for myself because right now the fight is really hard on nintendo switch (pc its easy enough but i dont care if it becomes easier on pc too) and this indirectly helps other more casual dst players to be able to win the fight in a legit manner instead of it feeling like its hopeless.

[Reecitz]

13 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Klei patched lureplant blocking so it was a bug or unintended mechanic. 

This is a 100% fact as of now. No matter either of our opinions.

Ofc i am here to promote what i want to see in DST. Thats what you and everyone is doing here so why are you implying im the only one being selfish here.

What part of my arguments are nonsensical? 

Im the opposite of elitist.. i want ancient fuelweaver fight to be easier so its more fun for myself because right now the fight is really hard on nintendo switch (pc its easy enough but i dont care if it becomes easier on pc too) and this indirectly helps other more casual dst players to be able to win the fight in a legit manner instead of it feeling like its hopeless.

At times, it feels like people here could care less about the casual experience. 

[grm9]

8 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Ofc i am here to promote what i want to see in DST. Thats what you and everyone is doing here so why are you implying im the only one being selfish here

being selfish is bad and that isn't an excuse and i'm not suggesting anything that could make other people enjoy the game less unlike you

9 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

What part of my arguments are nonsensical? 

you keep saying the same stuff even though you got told multiple times that your reasons are invalid because being selfish or elitist is unacceptable

11 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Im the opposite of elitist..

13 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

And tbh it annoys me when bad players cheese bosses to obtain loot they dont deserve

13 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

i want ancient fuelweaver fight to be easier so its more fun for myself because right now the fight is really hard on nintendo switch (pc its easy enough but i dont care if it becomes easier on pc too) and this indirectly helps other more casual dst players to be able to win the fight in a legit manner instead of it feeling like its hopeless

at the cost of making everyone who like the fight the way it is now and everyone who cheesed it enjoy the game less, that's an unacceptable price

also funny that you're talking about not wanting bad players to get anything even though you're also bad at the game, shouldn't you despise yourself and try to get better?

1 hour ago, Cruvimaster said:

The ability for people to create countless repeated topics with the sole purpose of wanting to force developers to return with an exploid is incredible. If they had spent all that time and energy training the Ancient Fuelweaver they would already be defeating him from Wes

i can already do minimal gear FW and i still use cheese sometimes, what now?

[Gashzer]

Just now, grm9 said:

being selfish is bad and that isn't an excuse and i'm not suggesting anything that could make other people enjoy the game less unlike you

you keep saying the same stuff even though you got told multiple times that your reasons are invalid because being selfish or elitist is unacceptable

at the cost of making everyone who like the fight the way it is now and everyone who cheesed it enjoy the game less, that's an unacceptable price

also funny that you're talking about not wanting bad players to get anything even though you're also bad at the game, shouldn't you despise yourself and try to get better?

Yeah i sound elitist and selfish in the manner which i present my arguements this is true i see but my actual suggestions if implemented help casual players which makes me non-elitist in my actions.

You are the opposite of this grm you are a elitish in sheep clothing. As Reecitz said above me, barely anymore on these forums care for the casual experience of dst which probably makes up the bulk of the player base which is abit sad to see.

[grm9]

4 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Yeah i sound elitist and selfish in the manner which i present my arguements this is true i see but my actual suggestions if implemented help casual players which makes me non-elitist in my actions

asking to remove cheese is still elitist

4 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

You are the opposite of this grm you are a elitish in sheep clothing. As Reecitz said above me, barely anymore on these forums care for the casual experience of dst which probably makes up the bulk of the player base which is abit sad to see

no, i don't want the fun of people that like the fight the way it currently is and people that use cheese to get ruined, you can already do the fight practically 1st try by getting brightshade staff, doing the fight the hard way is only required if you want to do it earlier and no one forces you to kill FW at all, so you can do that anytime if you want to

Edited March 28 by grm9

[Gashzer]

Just now, grm9 said:

asking to remove cheese is still elitist

How is it? Cheese is a band-aid fix for bad game design. 

I want klei to fix cheeses but i also want them to address the underlying issue which caused people to use the cheese to start with.

14 minutes ago, grm9 said:

no, i don't want the fun of people that like the fight the way it currently is and people that use cheese to get ruined, you can already do the fight practically 1st try by getting brightshade staff, doing the fight the hard way is only required if you want to do it earlier and no one forces you to kill FW at all, so you can do that anytime

You cant use brightshade staff as a reason to not make the fight easier. Its so far late game.

You are forcing people to do the entire CC quest line before ancient fuelweaver. CC is the easier of the two fights but the questline itself is more awkward to complete compared to ancient fuelweaver's.

End of the day AFW needs a touch up to be more accessible to console players and casual pc players.

[Sir Noel]

37 minutes ago, grm9 said:

at the cost of making everyone who like the fight the way it is now and everyone who cheesed it enjoy the game less, that's an unacceptable price

also funny that you're talking about not wanting bad players to get anything even though you're also bad at the game, shouldn't you despise yourself and try to get better?

i can already do minimal gear FW and i still use cheese sometimes, what now?

I know I am repeating this to you but once again, boss change discussions are closely tied to these "cheese" discussions, and when you continue to say "if you don't like the boss just cheese" or "you're just bad if you can't fight the boss regularly" it is hard to take anything you say in good faith. Many, many people who do use lureplant method on bosses would agree that the boss fights themselves are long overdue for a rework, or at need to be taken a closer look at. Think about why people use lureplant method in the first place. Heck, any "cheese" method at all can be applied here.

You say wanting to remove lureplant blocking is elitist, but IDK, saying people are bad at the game because they want bosses to be reworked to be more engaging/fun sounds pretty elitist to me.

Edited March 28 by Sir Noel

[Mike23Ua]

1 hour ago, Yuuko said:

Fixing voidwalking and changing AFW behavior is fine.  When they first announced changing lureplant due to Scrappy concerns I suggested to just have the scrap pile disallow placement of anything within a certain range of it, or give Scrappy a leap attack back to his scrap pile that could damage things in the way.  I had no issue changing him to prevent collision with the scrap pile causing him to break his gear easily during the fight, etc.  Same with AFW.  He already senses when no player is in the arena and moves to pull the key out, this could easily be put on a max timer to auto-end preventing out-of-bounds shenanigans or give him some power to effect people outside of the arena.  It would also have been pretty easy to just have AFW attack lureplants.  There were plenty of ways to shore up these fights without nuking creative tools.

So I’m trying to comprehend this, if you wanted AFW to attack (and obviously destroy..) your Lureplants in one hit- How in the hell is that ANY Different from Trampling them???

And more importantly- since the above clearly shows your OKAY with AFW attacking Lureplants, I must ask what it is you are REALLY complaining about that was Nerfed?

Was there some “Other” popular Exploit people were doing using Lureplants that just isn’t possible anymore?

Obviously what I quoted above shows there’s more to it then just AFW.

Is it breaking Mega-Base animal pens or something?

[grm9]

9 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

How is it? Cheese is a band-aid fix for bad game design. 

I want klei to fix cheeses but i also want them to address the underlying issue which caused people to use the cheese to start with

there are no issues imo, i like the fight and i enjoy fighting FW, some people don't though, so they can use cheese

9 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

You cant use brightshade staff as a reason to not make the fight easier. Its so far late game.

You are forcing people to do the entire CC quest line before ancient fuelweaver. CC is the easier of the two fights but the questline itself is more awkward to complete compared to ancient fuelweaver's

exactly, if you're really bad at the game you can still kill all bosses, but you'll need to get more stuff and spend more time preparing, but if you get better, you get the ability to do the fight earlier as a reward, that's how things worked since the start, e.g. ruins

11 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

End of the day AFW needs a touch up to be more accessible to console players and casual pc players

no, he's already very easy to kill if you use brightshade staff and a lot of people like the fight the way it currently is, also, there's still cheese if you don't want to get brightshade staff

4 minutes ago, Sir Noel said:

I know I am repeating this to you but once again, boss change discussions are closely tied to these "cheese" discussions, and when you continue to say "if you don't like the boss just cheese" or "you're just bad if you can't fight the boss regularly" it is hard to take anything you say in good faith. Many, many people who do use lureplant method on bosses would agree that the boss fights themselves are long overdue for a rework, or at need to be taken a closer look at. Think about why people use lureplant method in the first place. Heck, any "cheese" method at all can be applied here

imo FW is the most fun boss in the game, why is my opinion worse than your? most people don't even try to fight the bosses in any way except trying to do it with only weapon and armor by only trying to dodge attacks on their own or copying what others do, most people that complain about bosses being not fun to fight don't even know that there are more fun ways to fight them, e.g. people complaining about inventory management in case of FW and not knowing that you can do the fight without swapping items

6 minutes ago, Sir Noel said:

You say wanting to remove lureplant blocking is elitist, but IDK, saying people are bad at the game because they want bosses to be reworked to be more engaging/fun sounds pretty elitist to me

i didn't say that, i said that most people complain about not having fun fighting bosses without trying the hardest and most fun ways to fight them, if you still don't like those, it's fine, but no need to ruin fun of people that like fighting the boss, it's inevitable that some people like a fight and some don't, even though, admittedly, most people seem to not like the fight either because of not knowing how to kill the boss without spending an absurd amount of resources (most people seem to have never thought that you can drop ham bat before spore bomb gets dropped), not liking mechanics that they don't need to deal with (e.g. FW inventory management) or not liking doing hard stuff that requires more than a few attempts or thought about how the boss works, how to counter it and what items should you use

Just now, Mike23Ua said:

Was there some “Other” popular Exploit people were doing using Lureplants that just isn’t possible anymore?

e.g. moonstone moonrock duping

[Uedo]

18 hours ago, Sir Noel said:

Are you referring to using the shadow prison in the same way as lureplants while voidwalking/whatever breaks the AI? Or using shadow prison in a regular fight? A regular fight is absolutely not just spamming prisons and holding f. 

@Yuuko I think Sir Noel was onto the right track with what you mean. Forgive me if i'm wrong but you're saying you can effectively manage sanity and have enough NF to do the exact same method you would use a lureplant, ignoring the unimportant details (looks cool, makes sense for character etc etc)?

Cause you're absolutely right that's doable. Easily.

Maybe what's getting lost in translation here is that: Sure you could argue the change was done because it's a plant, shouldn't be able to do that due to what it is, isn't intended, doesn't fit thematically. I'd absolutely agree, it should be fixed then. It doesn't make sense.

The problem I have, and I suspect Yuuko does too, is that it was clearly done because it was considered an exploit, it was because of Scrappy Werepig - but this mechanic still exists with Maxwell. We can also argue that Klei did it because of the utility, as they stated they were considering bring it back, that helps invalidates that Klei are concerned it doesn't make sense.

With all of that; I still feel it'll come back at some point. It makes no difference, because those who know how to cheese in the exact same way (i'm not talking max/spiders either) it has actually made no difference whatsoever. Will they patch that? Maybe? What's the point though? Gonna patch every method? What next, Maxwell's prison? Woodies treeguards? Houndius? Wormwood (considering his bramble invalidates the trickiest part of the fight)?  It's just such a waste of time XD

[Gashzer]

13 minutes ago, grm9 said:

there are no issues imo, i like the fight and i enjoy fighting FW, some people don't though, so they can use cheese

"So they can use cheese" this is great game design logic 10/10.............. not!

Orrr instead of using cheese some of the more clunky parts of the fight can be smoothed:

• Stopping shadows creatures attacking after nightmare amulet is removed.
• Allow ancient fuelweaver to be frozen as while hes infused with shadow his fossil skeleton is physical and should be able to be frozen unlike full shadow creatures like shadow clockworks/terror/crawling horrors.
• Have both the shadow hand shield and woven shadows linked to the same cooldown. As in.  Only one set of woven shadows will spawn until you destroy all shadow hand an lower his shield then both cooldowns start from then. His mental block attack will still cooldown separately tho.

Even if these 3 are added the QoL of this fight would be much better.

Edited March 28 by Gashzer