Infinite liquid storage idea

[devblazer]

Hi all, an idea for an infinite liquid storage I am thinking of using.  I like the idea of 'shared' storage for potentially 'high volume' liquids.

[Zarquan]

Seems like a sound build to me, although I personally tend to avoid infinite liquid storage due to a mass duplication bug that seems to cause the mass of infinite liquid storage to skyrocket after a certain point. 

If you were willing to spend more space, a liquid reservoir on each line might be a good idea in case of intermittent flow and intermittent consumption, so that incoming water can skip the infinite storage and go in to the reservoir until its full.  Then the reservoir can block the pump, saving power.

[cyberwarlord]

Infinite storage will eventually cause game crashing and break save files.

[Saturnus]

2 hours ago, cyberwarlord said:

Infinite storage will eventually cause game crashing and break save files.

You got any proof of that?

[Henlikuoth]

Infinite storage is a game exploit that undermines strategic and careful planning. 

It prevents players from playing the game as it was intended. And since infinite storage is just more effective, people still use it (understandably).

I hope Klei will finish off infinite storages of any kind. It devalues the spirit and design of ONI. 

Also, the automatic dispenser allows for a kind of exploit. It allows to drop literally hundreds of tons of different solid materials into one tile. This ruins the whole idea of storage management and proper placement, and it essentially kills off normal storage bins. Usual storage bins are only used in specific situations, for example for automated shipping. 

[Zarquan]

2 hours ago, Henlikuoth said:

Infinite storage is a game exploit that undermines strategic and careful planning. 

It prevents players from playing the game as it was intended. And since infinite storage is just more effective, people still use it (understandably).

I hope Klei will finish off infinite storages of any kind. It devalues the spirit and design of ONI. 

Also, the automatic dispenser allows for a kind of exploit. It allows to drop literally hundreds of tons of different solid materials into one tile. This ruins the whole idea of storage management and proper placement, and it essentially kills off normal storage bins. Usual storage bins are only used in specific situations, for example for automated shipping. 

I believe the OP was asking for opinions on his build from a functional standpoint, not from an "intended gameplay" standpoint.  This means comments should be about whether it works and how it can be improved as well as any problems that might arise from using it.  Comments about whether it should work from an "intended gameplay" perspective seem off topic.

[MinhPham]

My infinite "liquid" storage is difference ... except for super coolant that can't be solidify, anything can be converted into frozen debris and heat up when needed

[Saturnus]

9 hours ago, Henlikuoth said:

It prevents players from playing the game as it was intended.

Infinite storages are intended game play.

If you don't like it then don't use it in your game.

It's really that simple.

[Henlikuoth]

2 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

Infinite storages are intended game play.

If you don't like it then don't use it in your game.

It's really that simple.

Intended? I doubt that.

The argument that a person does not "need" to use certain exploits or mechanics has always been flawed in all games. 

If you follow that line of argument, you could say that you intentionally don't use an overly strong weapon in a game simply because it is too strong. 

The point is, if something has a huge advantage, people are using it, understandably. People who don't use it have a disadvantage. 

Any game must follow a certain set of rules or regulations that align with its design choice and spirit. This includes balancing and the elimination of strange exploits. 

The most recent example of this is the new critter mood system and the following end of the Pacu mass starvation ranch abuse. Yes, I call it an abuse. I was happy to see this change, and it motivates players to find "legit" ways to handle Pacu pools, etc. 

[Saturnus]

51 minutes ago, Henlikuoth said:

The argument that a person does not "need" to use certain exploits or mechanics has always been flawed in all games. 

The door is that way. Don't let it slam you in the back just because you're too obtuse to understand simple game mechanics.

[pnambic]

1 hour ago, Henlikuoth said:

Intended? I doubt that.

Infinite storages are a consequence of some of the most basic aspects of ONI physics (one element per tile, basic hydrodynamics, gases and liquids are infinitely compressible, strong/numerous enough tiles counter overpressure). There are both natural (e.g. magma boiling liquids) and artificial (e.g. oil wells) things in the world that will create essentially infinite pressures. That is just how this world is.

1 hour ago, Henlikuoth said:

The point is, if something has a huge advantage, people are using it, understandably. People who don't use it have a disadvantage. 

What disadvantage? There is no such thing as "competitive ONI". There are no leaderboards. Mods don't disable achievements. Who is comparing you? To whom? How?

You come across as someone who deeply cares about what other people do, even if it does not affect you in any way. It's not a good look. 

1 hour ago, Henlikuoth said:

Any game must follow a certain set of rules or regulations that align with its design choice and spirit. This includes balancing and the elimination of strange exploits. 

I will gladly leave these decisions to the people who actually designed the game. 

[Henlikuoth]

8 minutes ago, pnambic said:

Infinite storages are a consequence of some of the most basic aspects of ONI physics (one element per tile, basic hydrodynamics, gases and liquids are infinitely compressible, strong/numerous enough tiles counter overpressure). There are both natural (e.g. magma boiling liquids) and artificial (e.g. oil wells) things in the world that will create essentially infinite pressures. That is just how this world is.

Natural "infinite" sources, for example, cool steam vents or water geysers, become overpressured after some time. If you give them space, they will eventually fill the whole space, setting them a limit at some point. So, real infinity is not even there. 

My argument was aimed at certain exploits, e.g., small chambers that collect literally infinite amounts of gas or liquid. Sure, I also benefit from it. But is it right in a game like ONI? I don't think so. The intention was that players use storage bins, etc., and find ways to order and store the materials on the map properly, but not millions of tons in a small chamber. 

15 minutes ago, pnambic said:

What disadvantage? There is no such thing as "competitive ONI". There are no leaderboards. Mods don't disable achievements. Who is comparing you? To whom? How?

You come across as someone who deeply cares about what other people do, even if it does not affect you in any way. It's not a good look.

It is not about competition. The disadvantage is, for example, that people who do not use infinite storage need to resort to the "legit" possibilities, namely storage bins or larger areas filled with water, etc. But those are naturally limited (rightly so).

My claim is the following: If a game allows exploitative mechanics like that, it ridicules and undermines its own (intended) gameplay mechanics, leading to a loss of motivation and inspiration to play "legally." The consequence is that people are not motivated to play or lose interest. You can observe that in many games, not only video games.

24 minutes ago, pnambic said:

I will gladly leave these decisions to the people who actually designed the game. 

Yes, me too! That is why they recently ended the Pacu exploit, as mentioned already. After all, it is their game. And the design choices lie with them. 

[pnambic]

If it's not about competition, why do you care? You're running a self-imposed challenge, basically ("I solemnly swear not to use <game mechanic>"), and that's completely fine. What's not fine is to decree that your way is the correct way, and thus others' options must be limited in the name of balance or fairness.

Apart from that, what would the infinite storage fix you want look like? In particular, what do you want to do about naturally formed debris piles? Here's what accumulated at the bottom of my colony's main shaft. What should happen with that in your world? Do you have a consistent view of how the physics should change, and how that would enhance gameplay? This is not something relatively freestanding like critter happiness. Again, this is fundamental physics, the thing that ONI is arguably all about in the end. It is extremely unlikely to change. It's the core of the game since its very beginning.

[Henlikuoth]

18 minutes ago, pnambic said:

If it's not about competition, why do you care? You're running a self-imposed challenge, basically ("I solemnly swear not to use <game mechanic>"), and that's completely fine. What's not fine is to decree that your way is the correct way, and thus others' options must be limited in the name of balance or fairness.

I care because infinite storage is circumventing intended gameplay mechanics. It is not about any "correct way." You don't get my point. The player only needs to be "limited" to the intended gameplay styles determined by the developers. But I explained the basic idea already enough, I believe. Also, it should be self-explanatory that infinite storage is a problem in any game that wants to take itself seriously. 

I checked your picture. It shows tons of solid materials. You can transport them into proper storage bins or let them lay around. Suppose someone is dropping all those materials into a one-tile spot with the help of an automatic dispenser. In that case, I would consider that an exploit of a game mechanic because it means that hundreds of tons of materials will eventually be compressed in that one tile. This renders storage bins completely useless. 

However, debris lying around differs from the topic of infinite storage of gas and fluid. I was specifically referring to gas and fluids in the posts above. Fixing infinite storage related to gas and fluids should be easy. Debris is harder to solve, but there are creative possibilities to encourage players to use storage bins instead of an automatic dispenser. I just don't have the time to write about that right now. 

[pnambic]

25 minutes ago, Henlikuoth said:

I care because infinite storage is circumventing intended gameplay mechanics. It is not about any "correct way." You don't get my point. The player only needs to be "limited" to the intended gameplay styles determined by the developers. But I explained the basic idea already enough, I believe. Also, it should be self-explanatory that infinite storage is a problem in any game that wants to take itself seriously. 

I've been telling you repeatedly that infinite storages of any type (also debris, regardless of how it gets to where it is) are the consequence of very much intended and fundamental mechanics.

25 minutes ago, Henlikuoth said:

I checked your picture. It shows tons of solid materials. You can transport them into proper storage bins or let them lay around. Suppose someone is dropping all those materials into a one-tile spot with the help of an automatic dispenser. In that case, I would consider that an exploit of a game mechanic because it means that hundreds of tons of materials will eventually be compressed in that one tile. This renders storage bins completely useless.

And yet, people use storage bins to get construction materials closer to a building site, to store intermediate products in industrial bricks, to ensure that certain materials are collected by otherwise idle dupes and put in a specific place, to supply seeds to pips. But the devs intended otherwise, as was revealed to you in a dream.

25 minutes ago, Henlikuoth said:

However, debris lying around differs from the topic of infinite storage of gas and fluid. I was specifically referring to gas and fluids in the posts above. Fixing infinite storage related to gas and fluids should be easy. Debris is harder to solve, but there are creative possibilities to encourage players to use storage bins instead of an automaticdispenser. I just don't have the time to write about that right now. 

You're the one who brought up the automatic dispenser (I wonder why that's in the game in the first place, come to think about it. It so clearly runs counter to developer intentions). Most gases and liquids can be frozen into debris, so the problem ultimately reduces to solid storage anyway. Go ahead, I'll be waiting for your suggestions.

[Henlikuoth]

1 minute ago, pnambic said:

And yet, people use storage bins to get construction materials closer to a building site, to store intermediate products in industrial bricks, to ensure that certain materials are collected by otherwise idle dupes and put in a specific place, to supply seeds to pips. But the devs intended otherwise, as was revealed to you in a dream.

These are specific situations where storage bins have a wanted function. This does not solve the problem of storing large amounts of materials. I even mentioned it briefly above. So, you are missing the point yet again. 

2 minutes ago, pnambic said:

Go ahead, I'll be waiting for your suggestions.

No need, because I did already. You don't get my point, and you don't want to. I already mentioned various points that you ignore blatantly. 

Aside from that, I am sure Klei will find ways for this beautiful game. The recent Pacu change is only one example. 

[pnambic]

14 minutes ago, Henlikuoth said:

These are specific situations where storage bins have a wanted function. This does not solve the problem of storing large amounts of materials. I even mentioned it briefly above. So, you are missing the point yet again. 

What if general bulk storage is not the intended use of storage bins? Where is the game rule that says otherwise?

 

14 minutes ago, Henlikuoth said:

No need, because I did already. You don't get my point, and you don't want to. I already mentioned various points that you ignore blatantly. 

You mentioned what you want to see changed, and why. I understand, I however vehemently disagree. You're divining developer intention from a very limited understanding of existing mechanics, and so far you have not made an alternative proposal other than to "fix" it, by which you mean, make it impossible somehow. You also stated that fixing infinite gas and liquid storage should be relatively easy, and that you could think of creative ways to deal with solids, but that you lacked time to write them up. I'm willing to wait. Just say what you actually want. In a month is fine. This game has been around for 6+ years.

[Gurgel]

On 12/14/2023 at 7:59 PM, cyberwarlord said:

Infinite storage will eventually cause game crashing and break save files.

I have played with infinite storage (liquid and gas) running for > 10'000 cycles. No crashed, no broken saves. I have also run experimental liquid storage up to extreme pressures. Again, no crashes or broken saves. 

Eventually, you get an overflow, but that is very likely just a display bug (tile pressure is float, display is some integer-based conversion of that), but this does not crash your game and does not break your saves. I just loaded my last relevant experiment from about 3 years back, see picture below. What happens if you open the storage is that the numbers go back to a correct display. The only thing that can happen is if you open this too fast, the game seems to take a long time to calculate what happens. Open it slowly and no problem. 

Your claim sounds like the typical threats used in other contexts when people try to make others behave "virtuous" by making up imaginary negative consequences of "bad" behavior. 

 

On 12/14/2023 at 11:38 PM, Henlikuoth said:

Infinite storage is a game exploit that undermines strategic and careful planning. 

It prevents players from playing the game as it was intended. And since infinite storage is just more effective, people still use it (understandably).

I hope Klei will finish off infinite storages of any kind. It devalues the spirit and design of ONI. 

Nonsense. That is your interpretation and it is deeply flawed.

Klei could have, at any time and easily, made doors and walls (3-layer for liquid) breakable at high pressures for gas and liquid. Or they could have made them increasingly leaky. They did not. Klei will have been aware of infinite storage for basically forever. They will also have been aware basically forever of both compression mechanisms (door-pumps and the gas/liquid way), with the second often occurring naturally and giving players hints to look into the mechanism. Hence your assumption is very obviously invalid. Obviously this "how the game was meant to be played" also represents an "appeal to authority" fallacy, making it invalid for even more reasons. And finally, Klei has almost always opted to give the players _more_ options, not less when there was a decision to be made. There were some nerfs (Wheezes), but they were gradual and clearly intended to balance things and make alternatives more viable, i.e. again, give the player more options. 

What is completely unacceptable is that you want to force others to play according to your made-up rules. You are not the first to try that though, and Klei has never, to my knowledge, reduced the strategic options that people have (yes, infinite storage is a strategic choice and it needs to be discovered and so enriches the game) on claims like yours. 

Oh, and I commented in 2020 on this already: 

 

[Henlikuoth]

2 hours ago, Gurgel said:

Nonsense. That is your interpretation and it is deeply flawed.

I will not write much now. Only giving one example: The infinite gas storage, for example, has invalidated gas reservoirs almost fully. There are even YouTube videos about how to establish them to avoid being forced to "spam many gas reservoirs." So, the consequence is that gas reservoirs are either not used at all or extremely limited. But based on my observation, people skip them completely after having infinite gas storage. One may wonder why they are even still in the game then.

It is an observation I made about mechanics that can harm the ONI experience. You may feel differently, but others as well. 

[spkthed]

ONI is a single player game. The way I play cannot harm your ONI experience and the way you play doesn't harm mine. Should Klei remove mods because infinite storage can be a mod item? Should they block anything that changes the game flow? Should they remove pliers because it's not realistic? No, that was put into the core game even though it defies physics because it makes the game more fun.

Your example about gas reservoirs is a perfect example of how this weird, controlling view of how others should conform to your rules fails. Gas reservoirs take no power to utilize, and act as a buffer in a way that infinite storage does not. Everything in ONI is tradeoffs.

I promise you, there will be a counter-example for anything you bring up. If you don't want to use infinite storage *don't*. But any reasons you bring up why others shouldn't will eventually be corrected. Except for the real one which is 'I want everyone to play by my rules' to which most people will say too bad

[Gurgel]

5 hours ago, Henlikuoth said:

I will not write much now. Only giving one example: The infinite gas storage, for example, has invalidated gas reservoirs almost fully. There are even YouTube videos about how to establish them to avoid being forced to "spam many gas reservoirs." So, the consequence is that gas reservoirs are either not used at all or extremely limited. But based on my observation, people skip them completely after having infinite gas storage. One may wonder why they are even still in the game then.

It is an observation I made about mechanics that can harm the ONI experience. You may feel differently, but others as well. 

Nonsense. Gas tanks continue to serve a purpose. It starts with them _not_ requiring any electricity to keep the gas flowing. It continues with simpler installation than any form of infinite gas storage. And there your "argument" dissolves into nothing. 

What you should really look into is why you think you should limit the experience of other ONI players. This is a single player game. Also see my comment from 2020. 

2 hours ago, spkthed said:

Your example about gas reservoirs is a perfect example of how this weird, controlling view of how others should conform to your rules fails. Gas reservoirs take no power to utilize, and act as a buffer in a way that infinite storage does not. Everything in ONI is tradeoffs.

Exactly. And the more options with different characteristics, the more interesting the game becomes. At least to anybody that has real engineering spirit. 

[Henlikuoth]

6 hours ago, spkthed said:

Should Klei remove mods because infinite storage can be a mod item?

Mods are optional and voluntary and do not belong to the normal "legit" game. People can do anything with mods that they like. I have nothing against that. I am talking about the "standard" unmodded game. 

6 hours ago, spkthed said:

Your example about gas reservoirs is a perfect example of how this weird, controlling view of how others should conform to your rules fails.

3 hours ago, Gurgel said:

Nonsense. Gas tanks continue to serve a purpose. It starts with them _not_ requiring any electricity to keep the gas flowing. It continues with simpler installation than any form of infinite gas storage. And there your "argument" dissolves into nothing.

I am not talking about "my own rules." Liquid or gas tanks are there to store liquids and gasses. And they are naturally limited and require a certain space. Infinite storage is not (practically) limited and requires only a small space. So, with infinite storage, you can conveniently circumvent placing several tanks to store a larger amount of liquids/gasses, rendering these tanks useless, at least in that regard. No more long rows of tanks are required. Sure, it has a benefit, even for me, but that limits these tanks only to some specialized uses, but not anymore for the storage of large amounts. I believe it would be better if people found ways to install areas on the map with many tanks to ensure large buffers. Of course, it is already possible now, but the temptation to use infinite storage instead is high. The point is limitless storage devalues more extensive buffer areas. 

This goes down to the principal question of whether any game should allow infinite storage. I am against it and outlined some of the reasons in this thread. 

Before, many players used mass Pacu starvation ranches and compressed them into a small area to create (almost) endless fish filets. This is not possible anymore after the recent changes to critter happiness. And I like it! It motivates the player to find more balanced and reasonable ways to create a fish ranch, especially now in combination with the new water fort. The earlier form of starvation ranches devalued other ranch types since they were simply more efficient. If you follow discussions about that, for example, in Steam, you will see that some people complain about the changes to critter happiness for the very reason that they cannot use the mass starvation ranches anymore. Many other people, however, point out that it was an "exploit" and never intended to be used like that. And I agree. 

You can keep your infinite storage if you like. I only tried to elucidate some issues that I see. We can leave it at that now. 

[cyberwarlord]

On 12/14/2023 at 4:57 PM, Saturnus said:

You got any proof of that?

Only that I've witnessed infinite storage causing the mass to bug, then causing the game to lag and often crash. If you see it multiply by large amounts or alot disappear is when I've noticed the save file no longer loads. Or the temperature shifts and stops changing.

On 12/15/2023 at 3:13 AM, Saturnus said:

Infinite storages are intended game play.

If you don't like it then don't use it in your game.

It's really that simple.

Definitely great for solid storage.  Both for performance and compact design. Liquid storage is questionable. And any odd rocket tricks.

11 hours ago, Gurgel said:

I have played with infinite storage (liquid and gas) running for > 10'000 cycles. No crashed, no broken saves. I have also run experimental liquid storage up to extreme pressures. Again, no crashes or broken saves. 

Eventually, you get an overflow, but that is very likely just a display bug (tile pressure is float, display is some integer-based conversion of that), but this does not crash your game and does not break your saves. I just loaded my last relevant experiment from about 3 years back, see picture below. What happens if you open the storage is that the numbers go back to a correct display. The only thing that can happen is if you open this too fast, the game seems to take a long time to calculate what happens. Open it slowly and no problem. 

Your claim sounds like the typical threats used in other contexts when people try to make others behave "virtuous" by making up imaginary negative consequences of "bad" behavior. 

 

Nonsense. That is your interpretation and it is deeply flawed.

Klei could have, at any time and easily, made doors and walls (3-layer for liquid) breakable at high pressures for gas and liquid. Or they could have made them increasingly leaky. They did not. Klei will have been aware of infinite storage for basically forever. They will also have been aware basically forever of both compression mechanisms (door-pumps and the gas/liquid way), with the second often occurring naturally and giving players hints to look into the mechanism. Hence your assumption is very obviously invalid. Obviously this "how the game was meant to be played" also represents an "appeal to authority" fallacy, making it invalid for even more reasons. And finally, Klei has almost always opted to give the players _more_ options, not less when there was a decision to be made. There were some nerfs (Wheezes), but they were gradual and clearly intended to balance things and make alternatives more viable, i.e. again, give the player more options. 

What is completely unacceptable is that you want to force others to play according to your made-up rules. You are not the first to try that though, and Klei has never, to my knowledge, reduced the strategic options that people have (yes, infinite storage is a strategic choice and it needs to be discovered and so enriches the game) on claims like yours. 

Oh, and I commented in 2020 on this already: 

 

How, every time I let water store like this I eventually hit a point the game starts deleting mass or acting strange.

10 hours ago, Henlikuoth said:

I will not write much now. Only giving one example: The infinite gas storage, for example, has invalidated gas reservoirs almost fully. There are even YouTube videos about how to establish them to avoid being forced to "spam many gas reservoirs." So, the consequence is that gas reservoirs are either not used at all or extremely limited. But based on my observation, people skip them completely after having infinite gas storage. One may wonder why they are even still in the game then.

It is an observation I made about mechanics that can harm the ONI experience. You may feel differently, but others as well. 

Buffer tanks is what they are. Not really storage.

[cyberwarlord]

2 minutes ago, melquiades said:

Check this out:

  Hide contents

https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/150748-the-fountain-of-infinite-pretroleum/

 

See, like that will be fine. Then randomly after loading it will. Rarely,  remove the mass. 

This argument sounds like is swapping the stickers on a rubix cube beating it? 

No, but it does work. 

[Prince Mandor]

On 12/15/2023 at 11:24 AM, Henlikuoth said:

it motivates players to find "legit" ways to handle Pacu pools, etc. 

By 'legit' you means 'exactly same, but taking several times more space' ? Well, what is so legit in 10 one-tile zones keeping 9 pacus each versus one one-tile zone keeping 90 pacus? just x10 space and material?

On 12/17/2023 at 5:51 AM, Henlikuoth said:

 Liquid or gas tanks are there to store liquids and gasses.

Who said you that? They appear in game way later than normal way of storing liquid in pools of liquid and storing gases in room of gases. Yes, they are exploity items violating logic, able to pump liquid upward without pump or spending energy, but well, we understand most players cannot use game mechanics to store liquids by ingame rules, and instead of building infinite storages by rules of ONI universe, they want some exploity magical buildings.

By insisting what creating ingame machines working by ingame rules is "exploity" you just try to impose you self-limits to others. It looks funny at least. Learn how game work, don't invent magical "intentions". This game meant to be played with infinite storages, escher waterfalls and liquid locks