Willow and Wigfrid's planar damage/planar entity should only exists in a Post Rift world

[Cassielu]

Until this update, the entire planar mechanic had been following one rules, which was that planar damage and planar entities were completely absent in the Pre-Rift world.

The planar damage in both Wormwood and Wolfgang's skill trees requires a planar weapon to work. And Woodie's Weremoose skill 3 only works for planar entities.

 

To be honest, this effectively divides the worlds before and after Rift, giving the whole "hard mode" something really special.

It also offers a less selective option: veterans and newcomers who don't like planar combat can refuse to open Rift and enjoy a world of classic battles and classic systems

On a more realistic level, because planar entities and hostile mobs with armor (unless the player causes them) do not exist in the Pre-Rift world. Planar damage is extremely useless in the Pre-Rift world, bringing it into it would only add unnecessary complexity and damaged the already fragile pvp gameplay.

 

And now, Willow and Wigfird can wield their planar flames and spears in the Pre-Rfit world, while weremoose's planar punch is completely absent in the Pre-Rfit world.

Why give planar damage to them away so much easier when its was limited it so much? If the rule has been changed, the previous skill tree obviously needs some redesign, if the rule still exists, then willow and wigfrid's skill trees need to follow it.

 

If skilltree's whole design is a process of constantly breaking the original rules, the later character get it, the more op it is, the earlier character get it, the more boring it is. How is it different from character refresh?

[Sacco]

after this skill tree update i honestly lost every single belief in klei trying somewhat to balance the game.

they're making the game more boring by making charcters OP.

They haven't probably acknowledge it yet, and they won't.

this thing gets worse when klei doesn't even give a chance to "CONTROVERSIAL POSTS" which just talk about NERFS.

thery're probably lost, but that's just my opinion.

 

[Yuuko]

First off - planar is stupid, but I won't be disabling or shying away from content.  Anyone who thinks veterans are going to just not turn on the rifts "b/c planar is dumb" is also dumb.

Secondly - planar is going to become a part of everything.  It has to.  The box is opened, and b/c there is no actual NG+ the lines between what is "end game" and what is "not end game" are going to blur.  You can already just turn on rifts at the start of your world and get probably the most OP weapon in the game in first autumn by just waiting for it to come to your base and deliver the supplies.

They could probably change both Wig and Willow to deal planar only to planar enemies, but will they?  I think not - not because Klei wants to over power every character but just because planar is that dumb - the game is warped by it in the worst way.

I've been saying it all along - planar is a bad idea.  If the game needed a rebalance, they should have just dedicated themselves to the rebalance.

On 12/1/2023 at 2:36 AM, Cassielu said:

...Wigfird can wield their ...spears in the Pre-Rfit world

Wigfrid needs a spark arc restrained static to add planar to her spear.  Her only planar damage pre-rift is beefalo riding.

She still needs to reach moon storms to do this - and interestingly means she can't just turn rifts on to get it.

[Gashzer]

Tbh the game is balanced.

Everyone forgets that new players wont hack in all 15insight points or have the shadow/affinities unlocked from the start until they kill AF and CC. And if you can solo AF and CC without willows op lunar flame then you are a player that doesnt even need it.

These are great skills that if obtained normally without hax, are completely justified.

[Antynomity]

19 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Tbh the game is balanced.

Everyone forgets that new players wont hack in all 15insight points or have the shadow/affinities unlocked from the start until they kill AF and CC. And if you can solo AF and CC without willows op lunar flame then you are a player that doesnt even need it.

These are great skills that if obtained normally without hax, are completely justified.

Game is balanced?
Maxwell:
Wanda:
Wolfgang:
Wendy:
WX-78:

1 hour ago, Cassielu said:

snip

it might be reworks all over again, yeah.

[_zwb]

33 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Tbh the game is balanced.

Everyone forgets that new players wont hack in all 15insight points or have the shadow/affinities unlocked from the start until they kill AF and CC. And if you can solo AF and CC without willows op lunar flame then you are a player that doesnt even need it.

These are great skills that if obtained normally without hax, are completely justified.

You can just afk on a world with every danger turned off for 160 days to get the skills, the game lets you do so, hunger, darkness, insanity etc can all be turned off. Given how people are willing to afk for skins, I wouldn't be surprised if they afk for skills.

This 160 days of gameplay requirement is basically nonexistent, there's no point taking it into account.

[Gashzer]

25 minutes ago, Antynomity said:

Game is balanced?
Maxwell:
Wanda:
Wolfgang:
Wendy:
WX-78:

Maxwell: combat in dst is already hard to master, now add in juggling spells to the mix. He has a high skill ceiling but you need to have skill to get use outta him otherwise hes less forgiving in combat with only 75hp.

Wanda: is a weaker wilson until you craft a shadow manipulator and even then to maxmise dps for the alarming clock you need to be good at kiting and if you are good at kiting you dont need the dps boost that a alarming clock provides.

Wolfgang: yeah hes the only character i think is unbalanced right now. Day 1 double damage that can be maintained by simply cutting trees is mental. He has 200hp as well so you can make alot of mistakes and not be punished as hard as maxwell and wanda.

Wendy: shouldnt be considered for this list. Weaker against the most dangerous common mob in the game which is a terror beak. Spiders/hounds can be easily defended against using simple pigs as distractions. The 0.75x damage is a massive downside.

Wx: again requires good knowledge of the game to acquire the best circuits. Even with 3 speed circuits you have less stats than normal. Walter has the same or better speed boost with woby, 9 extra slots, built in immunity to sanity drains and more base stats than a 3 speed circuit wx..... I really like wx but hes defo not op.

 

[Cassielu]

51 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Secondly - planar is going to become a part of everything.  It has to.  The box is opened, and b/c there is no actual NG+ the lines between what is "end game" and what is "not end game" are going to blur.  You can already just turn on rifts at the start of your world and get probably the most OP weapon in the game in first autumn by just waiting for it to come to your base and deliver the supplies.

Previous skilltrees and content updates clearly have a tendency to make Rift a clear dividing line, like Woodie's skilltree and that warning stuff.

I don't mind planar going in a different direction than it did, but developers have to go back and examine what was designed under the original rules and make sure it still works in the new direction.

If planar's future is what you say it is, then some of the updates we got earlier this year clearly need to change. If it's not, then what we have now needs to be change.

In any case, developers can't just change the rules and walk away, otherwise they're repeating the mistakes of the last 3 years of character refresh.

51 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

spark arc

Its restrained static. she don't need rift to get it.

 

41 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Tbh the game is balanced.

This isn't about balance.

[Picklesaurus]

I'm having fun with Wigfrid's and Willow's skill trees, but I feel bad for Weremoose: because of the way they implemented his planar damage he is the only "character" with a planar damage skill that loses DPS on post rift content to the point it only deals +1% more DPS than human form Woodie with brightshade gear IF Weremoose hits the combo everytime, in case he can't get the full combo or the kite patern  is not a multiplier of 3 , his DPS falls down by more than half his human form with brighshade gear to planar entities for that failed combo rotation.

He goes from hitting for 59,5 + 59,5 + 136 in pre rift world. Which is 25% more DPS than his human form DPS with a Darksword.
To hitting for 37 + 37 + 147 in post rift content. Which is 1% more DPS than his human form with brighshade gear.
(Moose attack speed in slower: 0,533s / Human form is: 0,466s)

Concentrating 66% of his already lower DPS than pre rift content on the third hit combo for planar entities feels so bad and awkward.
Having all his planar damage on the third hit means it is really awkward to proc the new planar bosses stunned status, I have not been able to do it on Armored Beager for example.

They should have standardized his damage like they are doing now for wigfrid and willow, keeping it mostly the same between pre-rift content and post rift cotent.
Weremoose Mastery should change his normal punches and charge from 59,5 normal damage to 30 planar damage + 29,5 normal damage, this way the damage would be kept the same for pre-rift content and be just a bit lower but already MUCH better and less akward to use on the new planar bosses and other planar entities.

For the time being I demoted Weremoose from Woodie's main fighting form to Brightshade removal device after getting brightshade gear on post rift content.

 

[Yuuko]

12 minutes ago, Cassielu said:

Its restrained static. she don't need rift to get it.

 

You're right - I hadn't actually crafted the charged spear until just now and realized it was only the restrained static.  Still that requires you start moon storm events, so you aren't just spawning into a world with that ready to go - unlike Willow who is like lolzplanar haha.

idk what your main concern is here - is it pvp?  b/c well, Klei might not care enough to balance for it.  I know pvp is below the bottom of my list - I wouldn't care if it was deleted - but that's me.  Is pvp your concern or is it something else?

Quote

some of the updates we got earlier this year clearly need to change.

In any case, developers can't just change the rules and walk away, otherwise they're repeating the mistakes of the last 3 years of character refresh.

I think that is exactly what we'll see happening.  Really attempting to do a NG+ was a bad idea, but they could have made it better by holding AAALLLL of this back until it was all ready to go at once - or just rebalanced the game.  Parsing it out like this is going to shift its purpose too much from one end to the other, it will literally be exactly like character refreshes where we started out with Willow getting Bernie, a relatively benign summon and ended with Wicker into Maxwell.

I think Klei could easily walk back Wig's skills by tagging them the same way they did Woodies - "when attacking a planar mob..."

but Willow?  eh... idk.  They could make it planar only against planar enemies, but regular damage against others... 

or just delete planar lol  I doubt Klei would do it, but I don't think its too late.  NOTHING in the game actually hinges on planar existing.  If it were deleted it would not change much of what we've experienced so far.

[Valase]

I mean, (from Wigfrid's tree) Its not like it really does anything before rifts, it is a skill that adds 20 damage to her spear, and after rifts it is a skill that gives 20 planar damage instead. You might complain about it giving free 20 damage for her weapon, but being planar or not is not what matters here.

[thetrueprime]

I think shifting these perks to be post rift is a good idea. I imagine it can be hard to keep all of the game in mind with skill trees, especially as they are designed to both create new starting routes but also bring up characters post rift, the later mechanics are probably not tested so much in the early game, or thought of as much.

Basically, I don't think it was an active decision, more an oversight that I think gating now would be a good idea. There's still loads of perks that are available all the time, and having some late game to push towards to unlock all the power of your skill tree has been great fun so far, I would like to see that continue.

It may not really be a priority for Klei though if there are other things they want to work on or rougher mechanics to refine. I think there is a tendency for planar to be divisively discussed which I would understand means it's hard for them to guage how it's actually playing Vs how people feel about it.

 

[BalkanCockroach]

3 hours ago, Sacco said:

They haven't probably acknowledge it yet, and they won't.

Nah they definetly know it. The reason they are making the game easier and adding a permenant progression system is because they know that the casual players quit the game early after picking it up. And that hurts the player count substancionally.

[arubaro]

that is the problem with adding buffs without adding any new early game content to match it. Not only that but some perks are related to end game bosses but you dont need to kill these end game bosses to have their perks day1...

[dois raios]

I think op sees a pattern in the 4 skill trees we already have, but this is not a "rule". Also, I agree that the planar mechanics ATTACHED to skill trees should preferably be locked until rifts are activated.

otherwise, I dont see a problem in planar mechanic before the rifts, we have dreadstone armor that gives small planar defense so it helps when you still dont have brightshade/void gear, and a moon side version of the dreadstone would be welcome to acquire before activating the rifts, just saying.

[MondayNight]

8 hours ago, Sacco said:

...klei doesn't even give a chance to "CONTROVERSIAL POSTS" which just talk about NERFS.

And... "THAT'S A GOOD THING!"

Seriously though, the vast majority of nerf proposals I've read on these forums over time bring nothing entertaining to the proverbial table and sometimes even come from a place of spite. Or solely take into account the experience of advanced, sometimes rusher players that play for Survival content, disregarding DST's Sandbox facet willingly or not. Fun engagement for bulk player-base at large should take priority, not strict numerical balance.

[Mike23Ua]

10 minutes ago, MostMerryTomcat said:

And... "THAT'S A GOOD THING!"

Seriously though, the vast majority of nerf proposals I've read on these forums over time bring nothing entertaining to the proverbial table and sometimes even come from a place of spite. Or solely take into account the experience of advanced, sometimes rusher players that play for Survival content, disregarding DST's Sandbox facet willingly or not. Fun engagement for bulk player-base at large should take priority, not strict numerical balance.

I don’t know.. sometimes I feel like DST almost, if not completely strips the Dont Starve Franchise of its original identity, like when I played DS- I was not playing with these Overpowered GODS that could easily slay everything in their paths..

And now with DST- it feels mostly like that’s exactly what I’m doing.

I mean: I’m a Wendy main, and while I enjoyed her rework- She’s still broken AF, I actually dare I say this: ENJOYED the way Abigail worked in Solo Don’t Starve, I enjoyed that if she died that the flower went on a Cooldown before Abby could be summoned again, and then required me to “kill” something as a sacrifice near the flower to summon her, and if she died in combat at Deerclops feet I had to rush in to snag it back up, but the rework deleted all that.. and now Abigail is an endless infinite summon.

Willows new skill tree disappoints me too.. WHY did Bernie need Regenerating powers??? I really REALLY Enjoyed being able to fully repair him with one use of a Sewing Kit, It gave Willow this sort of Unique “Doll Medic” Role, where you could carry around 3 or 4 Bernie’s & when one dies drop another one down to rush in and revive the fallen doll.

However now with Regenerating HP, this is going to happen significantly less often, and don’t even get me started on how she went from Pyromanic to X-men’s Jean Grey..

TL:DR- Characters are becoming these overpowered gods that are outleveling the threats of the mostly unchanged, Constant.

And yes I know that lunar & shadow rifts aim to shake that up- problem is, this does nothing at all for the unchanged early game.

 

[Fufuji]

Klei should definitely think hard to balance this.

[Mr.Oshiro]

I hope they can consider more when designing new content, at least the original rules should not be easily broken.

[GimplyGoose]

22 hours ago, MostMerryTomcat said:

And... "THAT'S A GOOD THING!"

Seriously though, the vast majority of nerf proposals I've read on these forums over time bring nothing entertaining to the proverbial table and sometimes even come from a place of spite. Or solely take into account the experience of advanced, sometimes rusher players that play for Survival content, disregarding DST's Sandbox facet willingly or not. Fun engagement for bulk player-base at large should take priority, not strict numerical balance.

I agree with you. Balancing the game should come second to introducing fun and transformative ways to play the game. Stripping away features and bringing all characters to Wilson's power level would balance the game, but I do not believe it would make it any more fun to play.

I do think that a lot of the features that people say are too powerful sometimes aren't even any more powerful than other features that already exist and have existed for a long time. Gunpowder has been in the game for as long as rain has.

[Mike23Ua]

On 12/1/2023 at 5:11 AM, _zwb said:

You can just afk on a world with every danger turned off for 160 days to get the skills, the game lets you do so, hunger, darkness, insanity etc can all be turned off. Given how people are willing to afk for skins, I wouldn't be surprised if they afk for skills.

This 160 days of gameplay requirement is basically nonexistent, there's no point taking it into account.

You can do this for every skill except the affinities skill branch- which requires killing AFW & CC.

I think that Klei is giving players access to Planar stuff BEFORE needing to kill the bosses associated with making planar stuff spawn because Klei added a world Gen setting to enable rifts from Day 1. And OBVIOUSLY the didn’t want players who Opt to turn that content on Early to be completely and totally locked out of even combating against that content..

Which is why you see skills like Woodies Moose getting Planar Punches without needing to first kill CC.

Please for the love of god… can we stop trying to lock Planar stuff behind needing to kill AFW or CC?

The Affinities are enough on that behalf & they give players who choose to toggle Rifts on Early just enough to still enjoy the content, but locks away enough to want them to kill the corresponding bosses.

Also it’s important to mention that AFTER a player kills CC & AFW that their affinities are permanently unlocked from Day 1 of any server they join.

SOooooooo if Klei was to do what OP is asking- You’d have Wigfrids, Wolfgang’s & Moose Woodies, joining worlds where Only the HIGHLY SKILLED Players have access to their planar stuff, while other players are still completely locked out of it.

[Cassielu]

48 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Which is why you see skills like Woodies Moose getting Planar Punches without needing to first kill CC.

I had discussed it, Weremoose's planar damage is only effect when attacking planar entity. So it only get his planar damage after you open the Rift.

48 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Please for the love of god… can we stop trying to lock Planar stuff behind needing to kill AFW or CC?

I'm not asking Klei to lock Players' ways to gain Planar Damage and Defense Item behind AFW and CC. Instead, I asked for Planar's gameplay to be locked behind the Rift, which meant fulfilling Klei's "hey, we're throwing new stuff into your world." ingame promise/warning and protect the Pre-Rift World from becoming unnecessarily complex.

It does not affect worlds that start Rift from Settings, only those that have not yet started Rift or have decided not to.

A example is that the Dreadstone Gear and Weremoose provide Planar Defense, but because planar damage does not exist in the pre-rift world, it does not really affect anything in the pre-rift world. Wolfgang and Wormwood's skilltree both provide planar damage, but they require a planar weapon to activate, so they won't really affect anything in the pre-rift world either.

This is what Klei has already done for Wormwood, Wolfgang and Woodie, and I'm just asking them to continue what they've already started, for Willow and Wigfrid.

[ryukamiya]

On 12/1/2023 at 7:29 PM, Shosuko said:

 

Wigfrid needs a spark arc to add planar to her spear.  Her only planar damage pre-rift is beefalo riding.

I strongly agree.

It's strange that you can get plane damage without defeating CC.
 

[Harryyw]

True dude. Drawing a clear line between pre-rift and post-rift is meaningful for gameplay and overall aesthetic.

[GelatinousCube]

On 12/1/2023 at 9:29 PM, Shosuko said:

Wigfrid needs a spark arc to add planar to her spear.  Her only planar damage pre-rift is beefalo riding.

Spark arc or restrained static?

You only have to upgrade the spear the once yeah?