So about uncompromising Walter...

[MondayNight]

2 hours ago, Scrimbles said:

The unfortunate reality of Walter is that there is a huge community stigma against him, due to his lackluster vanilla kit, and constant memes and people clowning on him creating a negative aura when even mentioning his name.

As mentioned above, is not "his lackluster kit" (subjective assessment) that makes people en large not playing him, is the 2x insanity con from taken damage getting people killed via shadows in record time. Am writing this in regards to DST player-base as a whole, not the active people from your Discord channel (akin Theukon-dos) and what they might believe given they adhere to a mod's philosophy advertising "uncompromising survival" and all that implies in relation to "vanilla" DST's default perceived difficulty.

 

2 hours ago, Scrimbles said:

His issues were that he was spread to thin into a lot of underdeveloped mechanics. His slingshot was very basic, very clunky, and a lot of the ammo types were useless. Woby was basically just chester, and didn't feel like a core part of Walters kit.

That's your pov. It's ok, but not *objectively factual*. His slingshot is simple and easy to use - originally all characters were simple in design: F and dodge/tank. That's it. If proficient all current ammo types are useful, albeit some niche. When players optimize their play-sessions they will gravitate towards one type of ammo with wide-spread usage, like Marble or Cursed rounds. That doesn't mean rest are "trash". Will be interesting to see what KLei comes up via Walter's future Skill Tree, and I do hope Ammo optimization will be a big part of it.

 

2 hours ago, Scrimbles said:

I wouldn't say that a goodie two shoes boyscout having the weapon of a delinquent child makes much sense. I don't believe boyscouts are known for weapons like that...

Walter's described as "The Fearless" first and foremost - "odd but cheerful boy" - with a "constant companion" second. "A Pinetree Pioneer" - and one tool of pioneers, aside bow-and-arrows, is the slingshot. Slingshots aren't "weapons of a delinquent child" (interesting you've made such a primary association) - they're hunting and war weapons (modern usage included) derived from slings. Boy-scouts do employ archery, BB gun shooting, and slingshot shooting among their club activities even present-day.

 

1 hour ago, Scrimbles said:

I think it's unfortunate that we are being haunted by a reputation based on a few vaguely half remembered forum posts from 3~ years ago from a person who doesn't code of Uncompromising Mode, a reputation that gets repeated via 'telephone game', where people hear a half truth about us, then spread that half truth to other people when they hear the word "uncompromising".

I have even seen us taking reputation hits from forum posts that aren't even talking about Uncompromising Mode, from people that have never even heard of us, just because they used the word 'uncompromising'.

I was there, I've read the posts, I saw the "rage" directed at KLei and all those shenanigans I've underlined that birthed in a spur of the moment the "Uncompromising Survival Mod" concept. Is not slander, is what happened and we both know it if being sincere. Yes, is a long time ago, people change or solely depart and what's in past remains there. And it wasn't just Canis or you. I understand passionate people about their hobbies will react emotionally when their hobbies are watered down or feel like the core is morphing into something twisted.

Yes, your mod changed a lot over time, there are plenty interesting ideas that base-game could benefit from - and no, am not writing about hardcore or softcore nerfs. As for "power creep" - remains to be seen: if post-Rift global changes will justify stronger characters or the amp up of was solely done in "the spirit of modernization and wider accessibility" to grow the casuals' player-base and retain players more. Time will tell.

[Scrimbles]

Just now, MostMerryTomcat said:

That's your pov. It's ok, but not "objectively factual".

Why are you quoting 'objectively factual' as if I said it?

Yes, my opinion is literally my opinion, that's how it works. Please find where I said my opinion is fact in that post.

2 minutes ago, MostMerryTomcat said:

 

Yes, your mod changed a lot over time, there are plenty interesting ideas that base-game could benefit from - and no, am not writing about hardcore or softcore nerfs. As for "power creep" - remains to be seen: if post-Rift global changes will justify stronger characters or the amp up of was solely done in "the spirit of modernization and wider accessibility" to grow the casuals' player-base and retain players more. Time will tell.

If you make the game easier, then add more late game content to justify that fact... that is literally power creep. That is how it works.

[MondayNight]

5 minutes ago, Scrimbles said:

Why are you quoting 'objectively factual' as if I said it?

Yes, my opinion is literally my opinion, that's how it works. Please find where I said my opinion is fact in that post.

That part wasn't quoting you. I've modified text to also emphasize that wording.

[Nnumber3]

This is from a Beginners Perspective for Uncomp here:

I downloaded the mod specifically for Walters rework a bit ago, yet after playing him for a little bit, i kinda felt... Underwelmed, and he seems WORSE.

commanding woby to pick things is nice, but your not saving much time doing that outside of day 1

Distracting hordes of spiders and such WORKS, but you don't NEED to distract something to get in close courters if your ranged weapon outranges them and just shoot them. I have seen it distracting work on only 1 thing at a time, so for a village of pigmen or spiders its not too effective.

Chopping trees and digging up stumps is nice, but I mean, maxwell, Woodie etc, do that way better, and if your chopping and digging on the way, it does not make getting wood faster, any character can use pigmen, (I'm not sure but 90% sure) just Walter has more control over them, I think. 

Him knowing extra recpies means NOTHING *ahem wickerbottem does it better *cough.

Dealing with wobys hunger is a new downside, but not warranted, like Walter is already hard as he is with the new nightmare creatures! (You did a great job on those dev's, when I first encountered them I was terrified like the first time i saw them in Don't Starve, didn't help i was in the swamp at night with willows lighter range of sight)

The jerky hat is... fine, bit weird for a perk, but okay.

The innocence downside is not THAT hurtful but weird your NERFING 1 of the most underpowered characters in the game.

so yeah you made 1 of the most underpowered Character in the game WORSE.

I know your trying to put more difficultly in the game, but playing as him was like playing Normal WES: small perks with a BIG BIG DOWNSIDE. 

like balloon hat and jerky hat

large sanity issues.

anyway, he needs to be buffed, i guess the Slingshot is locked under Lock and key, so heres my idea:

He's a boy scout and he likes badges, so mabye he can craft badges from expierences he had from the constant, plus ingredients.

like seeing deerclops lets him make a badge to triple Follower time.

or healing a follower gives a badge that makes him heal better.

He can only hold 3 badges at a time.

and so on

same with campfire story's: seeing a nightmare creature makes him tell a story about it, giving every1 listening 1 nightmare fuel every 3 days he does it or something.

just some idea's that aren't "bring the slingshot back."

 

 

 

 

 

 

[GenomeSquirrel]

45 minutes ago, Scrimbles said:

(Also, the Walter Rework came out before Maxwell's refresh, so its kind of a shame to hear "off brand Maxwell"!!)

It’s easy to say Walter has Woby, make Woby do stuff, but it’s not qualitative, and Max has an army, what would make 1 Woby an alternative to that.

 

While I have no opinion on uncompromised Walter in uncompromised land, base Walter needs something to set himself apart  in base land, edging in on Maxwell is tough.

[MondayNight]

17 minutes ago, Scrimbles said:

If you make the game easier, then add more late game content to justify that fact... that is literally power creep. That is how it works.

What am debating is the end-result of it all - if game will be more engaging and fun or not, in general. If everything is "leveled up" post-Rifts (aka post AFw & CC), can't really point at "older entities and gear are under-powered" - in end-game progression can come into play, as per quite a consistent part of DST's community expressed desires if judging by past&recurrent posts related to this subject: when all creatures, environment etc are mutated/evolved amidst the war between Alter/"Moon" and its Shadow counterpart. Yes, for now can be viewed as wishful thinking. Hope KLei takes it to proverbial heart, though.

[Mysterious box]

2 hours ago, MostMerryTomcat said:

You posed a statement about said mod. And got a "lore" explanation of possibly why "people like to treat the uncompromising mode mod as the actual devil or a meme". If you don't like what was painted, oh well.. c'est la vie. Is not "an undying grudge" but a meme, as you yourself mentioned it. If something is "undying", thats the mod's devs' vision about "what uncompromising means".

The reason I prefaced my thread with it was to avoid people ignoring the topic at hand and jumping on the uncompromising hate train clearly it failed.

2 hours ago, MostMerryTomcat said:

A spelling mistake, right? Totally not ironic, when also criticizing KLei for "not knowing how to balance their game". Akin those with the "Keli" one (admittedly more passable as a spelling mistake though).

Believe it or not I've been spelling it that way for quite a long time not realizing I was spelling it wrong even when I was giving appreciation you can even check other posts to be if you don't believe me. But you shouldn't use that as a reason to invalidate people we've had a ton of people mocking people who don't speak proper english already.

 

2 hours ago, MostMerryTomcat said:

Because most of those "Uncompromising Mode" modifications to characters are nerfs. And I also know of your previously and repeatedly expressed "characters should've had front and center one big and punishing con, its so fun" game-design philosophy. Likewise you complained in past a lot about Walter more-or-less implying "he sucks". Is not hard to put 2 and 2 together.

When has this happened because I sure as heck don't remember saying everyone needs a massive downside. Heck I've been arguing with people saying Wolfgang needs even more downsides for some reason. I've said that for the most part meaningful downsides are gone but that's just stating the truth. At most I've argued if we're increasing the downsides on other characters then the rest should follow suit.

As for Walter I don't feel I've ever implied he sucks overall just his slingshot and have said multiple that he's one of my favorites despite his flaws criticizing certain aspects of characters does not mean they suck. If that were the case people would have thought I and other fans hated Wurt and Woodie before they got their changes as well.

To summarize my issues with Walter is that his primary perk that being the slingshot fails as a weapon and a tool despite all the effort they clearly tried to put into it. His other perks are good in my opinion at least the problem is that they're not enough to carry him on their own that doesn't make all his other perks bad or make him as a character bad though your just jumping to conclusions in this area.

2 hours ago, MostMerryTomcat said:

While in theory there isn't indeed anything wrong for Woby to be Beef-, in practice people into riding will almost-always go for a Beef and keep Woby either as extra-inventory on account of her being unreliable and prone to either damage or even get you killed or... ignore her existance completely. Yes, attaching to her a dig-and-fetch mechanic will be nice. But am sure people will still use Beefs instead of her - once more, because she's unreliable when dangers are around; and they're ubiquitously around.

My goal wasn't to make her compete with a beefalo it to make her more relevant to his playstyle beyond being a luggage carrier going further into the game it just feels good I guess.

2 hours ago, MostMerryTomcat said:

As for Walter, he isn't popular because "his kit is bloated" - he's unpopular because of his punishing con: getting 2x damage-taken to sanity lose is what gets players insane and killed by shadows in record time. Also his 10+ dmg no matter-what-armor-used from "Bees allergies" that ends up as insanity too. Fighting some boss that damages you unless "no-dmg runs" (good luck in pubs with inherent lag) will forever bring into the fight 2-4 "minions" in Shadows' form and we all know ho popular are bosses with minions (i.e, BQ).

For someone who seems to be saying you've read my comments it's weird how you've missed the multiple times in the past I've made this exact point defending Walter. That being said I do also like to mention part of the issue is people not wanting to use his hat.

I'd rather we actually focus on the topic though rather than discussing assumptions about each other.

 

1 hour ago, Scrimbles said:

I think copying the Wiki entry doesn't fully convey what a character is about. Maybe you could embed the Walter gif in your post to give people a clearer idea of what he can do?



Not gonna lie it's uh, making us look bad when listed off in that format! Sorry!

Sorry I'm not very savvy on how to make gifs and the like and I realized I misrepresented how good he feels to play so I once again apologize on that front.

 

4 hours ago, Jakepeng99 said:

How come he is yet another follower character now? He benifitted well from followers before with his slingshot, though it was not a forced or direct synergy. (Keeping in mind Walter would still have his slingshot)

Personally I feel like if he's using followers to take off the edge while he fires his slingshot he's likely better off just melee fighting alongside the followers as they're already giving him more breathing room at least in the slingshot current state. As for the follower thing I get the gripes with it but Woby is already a follower so he's already a follower character just a more unique one.

 

3 hours ago, Gashzer said:

I disagree, buffing woby should be the main direction klei need to go. A few new slingshot special rounds or a new dreadstone/brilliant pellet for planar damage rounds is all the slingshot needs. Otherwise his skill tree should be mostly related to buffing Walter's scout skills (tent, storytelling, campfire cooking, pinecone hat) and a massive focus on Woby.

It would be an absolute disgrace if after the Walter skill tree release. People still chose to tame a beefalo over using big Woby. Big woby should be competitive with a beefalo for all stages of the game and never replaced by one.

As a hardcore Walter main this is my expectation.

I don't think there's really a way to make Woby better than a beefalo without going crazy with her riding perks and most people tend to go to Walter for his slingshot so I do think it should get the biggest spotlight this isn't to say that I don't want Woby to get a fair bit of love in his skill tree.

[Mysterious box]

7 hours ago, Scrimbles said:

For Walter, I chose to expand on Woby being an integral part to his character, by giving her tons more options, but having her hunger be a more important factor that you need to worry about. Walter has less bloated unfinished mechanics, and has more of a core focus on one thing: Woby. I'm surprised you would say it's merely a consolation prize, something that indicates you may not using Walters kit to its fullest. Woby can be used to keep aggro of multiple mobs which can alleviate group fights, which is a pretty major use of her new talents, she can speed up resource collection which lets Walter put more focus into other important areas, like Jerky preparation.

I didn't really get a chance to really focus on this earlier but honestly I feel like you did a amazing job with Walter in this mod I really liked the dynamic between Walter and Woby as they felt much more like a team looking out for each other in a unique way.

[Masked Koopa]

I would rather Klei focus on his slingshot than take ideas from a mod built around deleting that aspect from his character, truth be told.

[Cheggf]

On 8/31/2023 at 9:07 AM, Cheggf said:

Every time I see anything from that mod I read it with a neutral mind, but it always ends up being bad.

Nevermind, I have since learned that the mod has a Majora's Mask reference in it so it is now the GOAT.

[Jakepeng99]

On 9/1/2023 at 2:17 AM, Masked Koopa said:

I would rather Klei focus on his slingshot than take ideas from a mod built around deleting that aspect from his character, truth be told.

They should make Jerky his favourite food though. I would also like more Woby Utility even if it is different in execution.