Willow Skill Tree?

[Orchids]

Honestly, I feel like the most slept on characters in this game are Willow, Woodie (which is being buffed as we speak) and Winona.

Willow's skill tree should probably bring her something unique and powerful enough so that she could finally see some more players using her.
This thread is just gonna be some fun theorizing as to what Willow could possibly gain from skill trees that might incentivize more players to use her.

First of all, I think that Willow should have no Lunar alignment, as we saw in the trailer that she works with Charlie in some way,
maybe she should be the first shadow-dedicated DPS? One that does more shadow damage and barely any normal/plannar damage.

on top of that - I think that Willow got so much potential as a Pyrokinetic/Pyromaniac.
One of the biggest threats of this game, especially for long-term players who megabase, is Wildfires.
I personally think that it would be a nice addition to give Willow some structure that protects against such hassle, but has less to no downsides compared to the other 'Wildfire handlers' that we have, such as Flingos needing refueling and Above-Average Trees needing water.

Perhaps she could have some sort of a chalice or furnace she could place down that would absorb wildfires into itself?
I could see this synergizing well with her if she could possible even absorb these Wildfires via the structure and set herself on fire purposefully. Perhaps Willow should receive a damage/movement speed bonus while being on fire.

Another obvious perk would be buffing her personal torch. While it is nice that you can cook on it - a bigger radius and higher durability would always be nice, while also being quite niche, because, let's face it - darkness ain't a real threat in this game anymore.

One more perk that I'd love to see on Willow is the ability to fix burnt down structures. Currently, we have no way to revert structures that had already been burnt down other than destroying them and rebuilding, which could be a hassle in crammed bases especially. That would certainly be a nice addition in my opinion.

And lastly - there's Bernie. While it is nice to have some form of protection against shadow creatures - we have so many summoners in this game, and most of them are quite the popular choice among players already. It would be really hard for her to compete with these. So I think that Bernie should have something unique going for him. I am not quite sure what he should have, as of yet, but I'd love to hear your thoughts.

[D_Good_Fellow]

2 hours ago, Orchids said:

First of all, I think that Willow should have no Lunar alignment, as we saw in the trailer that she works with Charlie in some way,
maybe she should be the first shadow-dedicated DPS? One that does more shadow damage and barely any normal/plannar damage.

I can justify Willow having the opportunity to side with lunar for a few reasons. We know she was tormented by Terrorbeak(s) since childhood and Bernie seems to specifically protect her against shadows. Even if she is working with Charlie/the shadows in some way in the lore, she could easily align lunar to "break" this contract. Animation canon isn't entirely restrictive to alignment options in gameplay, since we saw Wilson side with Wagstaff yet in-game he can side with Charlie too. 

Also is there a difference between shadow damage and planar damage? My understanding was that mob alignment only applied to the lunar/shadow skill perks buffing players against them, but that mechanically both shadow and lunar entities dealt planar damage and had planar armor. 

2 hours ago, Orchids said:

One of the biggest threats of this game, especially for long-term players who megabase, is Wildfires.
I personally think that it would be a nice addition to give Willow some structure that protects against such hassle, but has less to no downsides compared to the other 'Wildfire handlers' that we have, such as Flingos needing refueling and Above-Average Trees needing water.

Perhaps she could have some sort of a chalice or furnace she could place down that would absorb wildfires into itself?

This is a clever way to use Willow's intuitive connection to the game's fire mechanic without forcing her to behave out of character. It's difficult to justify "fire extinguishing" as a perk for a character who explicitly hates doing that (I know she already has a bonus ending smoldering but she literally voices her hatred for it when she uses it), but a structure that "absorbs" all the fire into itself to create a bigger, nonthreatening fire would work really well. Although imo the wildfire problem is more deeply rooted than a single character's perk can solve. The whole mechanic needs to be rebalanced, especially re: multiplayer.

2 hours ago, Orchids said:

Perhaps Willow should receive a damage/movement speed bonus while being on fire.

This is a really great perk for Willow because it matches her existing play style super well while incorporating a delightfully in-character experience. Willow's existing play style revolves around managing sanity: her low base sanity, the fact that she often benefits from insane, and the fact that she can restore sanity more easily than most characters promotes a fun high risk high reward play style (albeit at a much lower rate than characters like Wanda or even Maxwell). Her ability to easily warm up in winter arguably promotes this as well. Being on fire isn't the most high risk thing for Willow to do, but it does quickly lead to overheating which can become a problem in combat and stuff (not to mention fire damage that Willow isn't immune to). Encouraging Willow players to take damage for stat buffs fits into that high risk high reward play style.

Willow benefiting from risky behavior is a great way to encourage players to play in character. I would love it is she gained a unique animation while on fire to denote it, like a crazed smile or something, that'd be so cute. I love the image of Willow charging into a raging inferno and coming out in a blazing, triumphant charge.

Wait a minute. I think this now my favorite Willow perk suggestion! 

2 hours ago, Orchids said:

Another obvious perk would be buffing her personal torch. While it is nice that you can cook on it - a bigger radius and higher durability would always be nice, while also being quite niche, because, let's face it - darkness ain't a real threat in this game anymore.

Yeah lighter buffs make a lot of sense to fill out the skill tree. Durability is already pretty good so I don't want too many of the perks to be buffing that specifically. But a few radius increases and a torch throw-esque ability to create a limited source of light on the ground would be very welcome.

2 hours ago, Orchids said:

One more perk that I'd love to see on Willow is the ability to fix burnt down structures. Currently, we have no way to revert structures that had already been burnt down other than destroying them and rebuilding, which could be a hassle in crammed bases especially. That would certainly be a nice addition in my opinion.

Tbh this would be better as a Winona perk. Repairing burnt structures is a bit out of character for Willow (not as much as putting out fires faster, but still) and doesn't really interact with her existing play style in any meaningful way (while it does fit into Winona's base building/base maintenance play style).

2 hours ago, Orchids said:

And lastly - there's Bernie. While it is nice to have some form of protection against shadow creatures - we have so many summoners in this game, and most of them are quite the popular choice among players already. It would be really hard for her to compete with these. So I think that Bernie should have something unique going for him. I am not quite sure what he should have, as of yet, but I'd love to hear your thoughts.

A big one that's been brought up is Bernie's interaction with the enlightenment mechanic, functionally rendering Willow useless in moon-based quests. My concern is that, like Woodie, the solution perk might be locked behind being lunar aligned and by extension beating the Celestial Champion... the battle and quests for which are the very reason people want Willow to have this change. This could also be fixed with the ability to activate Bernie under non-sanity related circumstances. Like wereidol-esque craftables that make Bernie active for the next couple of minutes regardless of sanity.

In terms of Bernie himself, his main use is pulling enemy mob attention away from players. So any buffs should help Bernie in that area. More HP and quick, pigman-like kiting to dodge attacks more frequently would match Bernie's existing use better than damage boosts or ranged attacks, for example. Although with enough perks Bernie can be retooled in a few different ways, so AOE attacks and defensive abilities (especially since Bernie seems to exist to protect Willow) could work as well.

[GenomeSquirrel]

Not a fan of these, extremely situational and redundant, and I’m not sure why you’d give anti fire perks to a pyromaniac.

 

but I guess I ought to share my own ideas before her beta appears, just been distracted.

[_zwb]

12 minutes ago, GenomeSquirrel said:

why you’d give anti fire perks to a pyromaniac

Because if you just set everything on fire no one's gonna like you. This is a multiplayer game, your actions have impact on other players

[GenomeSquirrel]

22 minutes ago, _zwb said:

Because if you just set everything on fire no one's gonna like you. This is a multiplayer game, your actions have impact on other players

But even turning her into a pottery maker makes more sense than her so vigilantly destroying her favorite thing.

 

But fire based combat perks could be problematic in base, particularly for something sudden like a hounds attack, it’s bitterly hard to work around that.

[D_Good_Fellow]

29 minutes ago, _zwb said:

Because if you just set everything on fire no one's gonna like you. This is a multiplayer game, your actions have impact on other players

The two aren't mutually exclusive though. I feel like the solution to that problem is to give Willow perks that negate the downsides of setting everything on fire, not to reverse the utility of her character completely by making her a fire marshal. That kind gameplay would be better suited to Winona or Walter. Fire safety perks make way more sense for those two than for Willow.

That being said, I think OP's "condensing all fires into a single location/structure" idea works perfectly fine as a compromise on that.

[EthanTheMime]

leaving this here
https://youtu.be/1-y3HkW4J7E

 

[_zwb]

5 hours ago, GenomeSquirrel said:

But even turning her into a pottery maker makes more sense than her so vigilantly destroying her favorite thing.

Having more controlled fire doesn't destroy her thing. There are plenty example of fictional characters able to control fire to not burn things.

[dengta72]

I also share my personal thoughts on the willow skill tree.
First of all, I think the emergence of the skill tree is to enrich the playability of a character, highlight the character's ability, and reduce negative effects.
So for willow, I listed the following points:
1. Not afraid of fire damage. But it will overheat, although reasonable, but a bit ridiculous, extending the overheating time is a good skill.
2. Lighter. Is it unscientific not to be able to add fuel? If you can use a lighter to extinguish the smoldering/burning items around you to replenish fuel, it may be more beneficial to the team. Or increase the light radius of the lighter.
3. Bernie. Bernie can make Willow safer, but for now, Willow can still suffer damage, perhaps increasing Bernie's protective effect.
4. The choice of camp. As we all know, Bernie can't become huge in Lunar Island, which makes Willow vulnerable.
I love the character of Willow, but Willow doesn't know or use fire in a variety of ways these days.

[Brago-sama]

Realisticly she'll probably have branches for boosting some of her currnent skills (increased fuel effeciency, heat resistance, sanity from fire sources, Bernie, BERNIE!, lighter) and then her shadow/moon paths will have something new probably to mix things up (one of them will probably be letting bernie work in enlightenemnt)

Seeing how they like to add a few  new small random abilities in these trees she'll probably have something like making charcoal easier, make a super fuel that makes fires last longer, or maybe something that lets her refuel her lighter.

At least thats my take on what might happen. Here's hoping you Willow mains get what you want

 

[PunkShark]

Atm i think Willow doesn't overall feel like the psychopath we know and love, her role as a firestarter and a pyro has sort of dwindled away into smaller and less noticable perks due to her unfair stereotype of being known as a "griefer" character when in reality everybody can grief as easily as her and hell, even worse than her, Woodie with his beaver slam is already a walking mini-thumper and Wickerbottom with tentacle books and whatnot is far worse than a lady with just a lighter. Which is why when her refresh came around it was less about her being a firestarter and was more of a bernie spotlight. During those days back when DST was still in beta and whatnot, things like rollback, server voting and server reset worked very differently or didn't even exist yet so, yes during those days her stereotype was pretty warranted. But now we have so many options to take care of griefing so i'm asking Klei very kindly, nay, i am begging klei. Let. Her. Go. Wild.

I want Willow to feel like an unhinged pyromaniac, let her be who she wants to be and and have her do what we have seen her doing in cinematics. Fight enemies with fire. More methods to crumble her enemies into ashes. pyrokinesis, perks to the fire staff, matches to throw at her enemies to put them on fire. combust herself into a walking fire hazard as previously the OP described.
That's what Willow should be in my eyes. 

Personally these are the kind of perks in her skill tree that i would want:

Firestarter category:
- More control of her fires, things will not turn into ash when they're being killed by fire (or under the influence of fire while you're attacking them when they die) and will not spread to structures. To add onto this, the ability to remove wildfires could also be a part of that.
- Fires last longer and deals more dmg over time.
- Firestaff grants you sanity when used and has more durability (This will work with the previous perk mentions)
- Can craft a box of matches to throw at enemies to put them on fire. (crafting recipe is probably a bunch of twigs, grass and nitre.)
- Easier firespread. enemies who walk into fires created by matches or things already set on fire can spread to other enemies (unsure how this would work entirely so it isn't just a forever domino effect but rn i am just thinking what's on my mind.
- By the influence of fire Willow can put herself on fire (so much fire...)

As some extras i am unsure how to completely make it fit and if it's too much i was thinking if there was a perk where she is immune to overheating related to fires since.. having so many fire related abilities you're just gonna make yourself overheated, another thing is potential lighter perks buut i feel like the lighter is okay in itself.

Bernie category:
- BERNIE! can now be triggered at higher sanity 
- BERNIE! gets a small AOE and deals slightly more dmg.
I'm thinking of more atm and i'll probably update this part..

Affinites:
(Taking either shadow or Lunar affinity grants Willow 2 new types of fire that works against shadows or lunar, so for example:)
- Shadow affinity: grants Willow shadow fire when using matches, her lighter, setting herself on fire deals more dmg to lunar affinity related enemies.
- Lunar affinity grants Willow lunar fire when using matches etc. etc. which deals dmg (and does more dmg)  to shadow affinity enemies.

[Gerrent95]

On 7/27/2023 at 12:00 PM, GenomeSquirrel said:

 

But fire based combat perks could be problematic in base, particularly for something sudden like a hounds attack, it’s bitterly hard to work around tha

So, we have a skill for bramble traps not hurting players if wormwood with that skill placed it. Ive mentioned this way back when willow got reworked, but why not give her the ability to start fires that don't spread. at least when she attacks. maybe make enemies she killed her special fire drop their proper loot and not just ask. have bernie have a fire aura that benefits from these same skills when hes active.

[GenomeSquirrel]

2 hours ago, Gerrent95 said:

So, we have a skill for bramble traps not hurting players if wormwood with that skill placed it. Ive mentioned this way back when willow got reworked, but why not give her the ability to start fires that don't spread. at least when she attacks. maybe make enemies she killed her special fire drop their proper loot and not just ask. have bernie have a fire aura that benefits from these same skills when hes active.

what type of fire should she get is a question, has to start from something burning, a version of fighting with fire is dropping a ton of ropes, letting fire spread among then, and reset with water/flingo, damage multiplies per rope. So stopping fire spreading would plummet damage, and who knows if Klei would multiply fire DPS enough to make up for it.

 

I’m not sure the best way to use fire myself, probably why I still haven’t gotten around to making a skill tree of my own, but perhaps a ton of greed is a start.

[-Variant]

9 hours ago, PunkShark said:

Personally these are the kind of perks in her skill tree that i would want:

Firestarter category:
- More control of her fires, things will not turn into ash when they're being killed by fire (or under the influence of fire while you're attacking them when they die) and will not spread to structures. To add onto this, the ability to remove wildfires could also be a part of that.
- Fires last longer and deals more dmg over time.
- Firestaff grants you sanity when used and has more durability (This will work with the previous perk mentions)
- Can craft a box of matches to throw at enemies to put them on fire. (crafting recipe is probably a bunch of twigs, grass and nitre.)
- Easier firespread. enemies who walk into fires created by matches or things already set on fire can spread to other enemies (unsure how this would work entirely so it isn't just a forever domino effect but rn i am just thinking what's on my mind.
- By the influence of fire Willow can put herself on fire (so much fire...)
 

I agree with just about everything you've presented, I'd love a good chunk of these to be implemented.
Maybe it's my bias, since over half of these are already in the Willow re-refresh mod I had helped with- teehee.
I'd be over joyed to have some of Willow's perks be inspired by these.

Spoiler

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2961834171

 

9 hours ago, PunkShark said:

As some extras i am unsure how to completely make it fit and if it's too much i was thinking if there was a perk where she is immune to overheating related to fires since.. having so many fire related abilities you're just gonna make yourself overheated, another thing is potential lighter perks buut i feel like the lighter is okay in itself.

I'd love if the lighter just got it's infinite durability back in Willow's hands only. I'm very sad it's gone, and would rather not spend a perk point on restoring it to its original state.

9 hours ago, PunkShark said:

Bernie category:
- BERNIE! can now be triggered at higher sanity 
- BERNIE! gets a small AOE and deals slightly more dmg.
I'm thinking of more atm and i'll probably update this part..

I'm surprised you didn't mentioned BERNIE being outright disabled in Lunacy Zones. Easily my biggest gripe with him currently.
I wouldn't mind being able to force activate him outside of insanity at some points, though.

[Cassielu]

10 hours ago, PunkShark said:

- More control of her fires, things will not turn into ash when they're being killed by fire (or under the influence of fire while you're attacking them when they die) and will not spread to structures. To add onto this, the ability to remove wildfires could also be a part of that.

I'd like to see features like this added to the game rather than being exclusively willow's, which would make fire combat a real possibility.

If the mob drop is not combustible or fuel, it should not become ash. And Willow could have a skill to protect the rest.