(updated) Insight points (skill points) - are they good?

[Mortalbane]

Updated with suggestions from the comments

Like it or not, skill points probably aren't going anywhere. So, let's discuss if they should be improved and how.

Current system
Currently players earn the insight points with time, and they are saved between worlds. If you've spent your points to unlock some perks, you keep the perks when entering a new server. Or can refund them and unlock different skills. A rogue-like progression system of sorts.

Pros:
1. Saves progress
You feel that your time spent on a public server, which got reset again, was not a complete waste.

2. Gradually makes the early game easier
Probably more viable for less experienced players, who will get stronger right from the start, after yet another playthrough ended up in death, tears, and world reset, allowing to get further each time.

3. Easier development and management
This is a pro for devs. Most of the players would prefer acquiring skill points via killing bosses, obtaining rare materials and so on. But imagine designing, balancing and later updating such a system.

4. Doesn't force you into a certain gameplay
Some people may prefer acquiring skill points in a character-specific way, like fighting for Wigfrid or farming for Wormwood. But it would force you into a certain playstyle, kill variety and creativity. And keep in mind that such approach would create pressure and racing - go fight, go farm!

If you have more, please share.


Cons:
1. Takes too long
Currently you have to wait 160 days to get all skill points. While some people don't mind it, more are complaining that it is too much.

2. Boring
Leveling up your character by waiting is not very fun.

3. Progression balancing problems
Each perk can be two things at the same time:
A) a thing which is given only after some time, which should be and feel stronger and more impactful
B) a thing which is available right from the start (on your second playthrough), which doesn't have to be impactful
For example, having a perk like Wormwood's Fly Trap right from start feels ok, but working towards it, spending skills to get it - ouch.

4. One-time feature
While for some people it is a plus, others want to start over when joining a new server and see how the character goes through the early game with different skill tree choices. Leveling up your character can be fun, but current system only allows to do it once. 

5. Creates a gap between players
Imagine players A and B just joined a fresh server, both are Woodie. Player A has all the skill points from his previous game, crafts helmets and walking canes, wrecks mobs as a Moose, and so on. And player B plays Woodie for the first time, feeling useless and sad.


Bonus - encourages abuse of character switching
If you have a leveled up Wilson, you can switch to him, transmute all you want, and switch back. But is it a pro or a con depends on your preferences.



Possible solutions

If you have something to add, or you disagree, please comment.

[Dunte]

Yeah, I got the similar idea in my post.

Point system should be reworked to have a progression though world, so that these skills feel like they're gained, not grinded. 

[JustAFlower]

You have to wait about 170 days to get all the skill points so personally I want to keep the skill points saved in other worlds , if there was a system with achievements in game to win skill points, then the skill points shouldn't be saved in other worlds.  

[Fufuji]

No.

[-Variant]

I'd personally favor a more interactive and in-depth way of actually getting Insight.

I wouldn't mind if it stayed between servers if getting them was more interesting. If it stays "Survive X" days, I don't think I'd mind much; but it would kill them off for pub players that host short term worlds...

I see people nothing the perks obtained as rewards but it doesn't really feel like much of a reward if I'm not doing anything to earn them!

[Cassielu]

Yes, and it has to be. This is the only point for skill trees to exist, otherwise they can replace it with more regular and better ways, such as crafting items from rare materials to get these boosts.

[Evelo]

I'd prefer if they weren't saved between worlds but also change insight acquisition to be yknow, better.

[Jakepeng99]

Skill points are meant to help new players stay in the game, it will stay permanant.

[GLERMZ]

Unfortunetely its clear that Klei will not change this, but its my biggest grip with the skilltrees. I really enjoy the introduction of them, but the fact that you never have to work for them after you do it once, will make them in a way, obsolete. Just something you have there that makes your character more interesting and strong.
I would definitely  love for them to change:

A) how you obtain the skills, they should have different goals to unlock (example: Kill 10 creatures with bramble husk as wormwood to unlock his special Bramble Traps skill, Mine/Chop 25/50/100 resources to unlock all 3 left skills from Wolfgang, and so on.) This would even fit more the original idea of DST of doing something INGAME in order to get rewarded for it.

B) Having to unlock the skills in a world in order to have that character become stronger. This would prevent what was already hapenning with Wilson, just switching to him to use his transmute skill without having to actually play him. I think we should have to survive with said character to be able to use his best new skills.

Also it would always make you play the character in this default stated and feel the progression while obtaining skills. I think on itself that is really good, both for new players and veterans, since veterans will most likely never having the feeling of a default character ever again.

TLDR: I'm agaisnt the skills being permenent, even more when they just based on time played.

[abrocator]

Saved between worlds.

• Skill trees don’t fit the game to begin with
  • Permanent Insight means that you can grind the EXP game and get it over with forever
• The way of getting Insight is boring
  • And I have heard no suggestions that make it better that also doesn’t lock people into a certain playstyle, like Wormwood crop farming (why lock him to that) or characters in general killing bosses (not everyone likes that)
  • Bottom line things like crop farming should be rewarding for the crops itself and fighting bosses should be rewarding because you get good drops. There is no need to add something on top of that.

[somethin]

I have a crude idea how a skill tree should work, but  I don't know if it's a good idea or not.
Basically, you start fresh on a new character with no insight points. Then, you gain points by various means. There are more ways to gain points than the current limit, but you can never have more than 15.
You get 1 point for surviving each season for the first time, for a total of 4 points in a year.
You get 1 point for discovering the ruins/archive
You get 1 point for defeating each boss for the first time, maybe 2 if it's a raid boss tier boss, the exception is CC and AFW which give 3.
This is just a idea, but it can also tie into stuff like max friendship with pearl or discover moonquey/lunar island etc. so the player can have incentive to go explore places that are hard to reach.
And, once you gain all 15 points, if you start a new world you now starts with 3 insights, so you don't have to grind as much as before.
This is just my idea, but I am also indifferent to the current system. The current system is basically what the og don't starve exp mechanic is, except that instead of unlocking new characters you unlock perks instead, which you could argue that after unlocking all the perks it's like you're playing a whole new character.
 

[Mortalbane]

I've updated the post to include thoughts from the comments.
Also changed the title from "should the points be saved or not", because the discussion topic shifted a little bit.

Please share your opinion on the subject.

[NNOUS]

This game had a history about how not to task player what to do.

And no, i dont like to grind each time when i join a new pub, that might just kill my vibe to play the game.

4 hours ago, Jakepeng99 said:

Skill points are meant to help new players stay in the game, it will stay permanant.

Yes. there is already a grinding part in a survival genre game. and u are asking to grind more on character experience? I would just quit the game.

[Mortalbane]

3 minutes ago, NNOUS said:

This game had a history about how not to task player what to do.

And no, i dont like to grind each time when i join a new pub, that might just kill my vibe to play the game.

Yes. there is already a grinding part in a survival genre game. and u are asking to grind more on character experience? I would just quit the game.

And what if the grinding waiting time was shorter? Or part of the skill tree was saved permanently via achievements?
Also, don't get me wrong, but DST players grind the base game over and over, picking saplings, killing bosses, farming ruins - only to do all that again on a new server. This is grind, and you don't mind it. And skill points are a bonus, which currently even requires no additional actions, hard to call it grind.

[NNOUS]

1 minute ago, Mortalbane said:

And what if the grinding waiting time was shorter? Or part of the skill tree was saved permanently via achievements?
Also, don't get me wrong, but DST players grind the base game over and over, picking saplings, killing bosses, farming ruins - only to do all that again on a new server. This is grind, and you don't mind it. And skill points are a bonus, which currently even requires no additional actions, hard to call it grind.

there is a vital difference between those 2: first it is grinding for materials, thats balanced as it is, that fine

the second its the idea that you have to grind times and to certain task to unlock abilitys, which doesnt really give u anything. there is alot of game can be cataloged in this kind. and i dont wish dst become like it.

[Evelo]

13 hours ago, Mortalbane said:

Bonus - encourages abuse of character switching
If you have a leveled up Wilson, you can switch to him, transmute all you want, and switch back. But is it a pro or a con depends on your preferences.

I think this is purely a con because you can have the same effect if you move the skill points away from the character and move those crafts over to a Crafting Station. Can even throw in some flavor in the description or character quotes like how Wilson invented the Alchemitransmutation Station and Wormwood created the Pot of "Friends" station. little nod to the origin of the recipes.

I like the rest of yer post.

[Mortalbane]

5 minutes ago, NNOUS said:

there is a vital difference between those 2: first it is grinding for materials, thats balanced as it is, that fine

the second its the idea that you have to grind times and to certain task to unlock abilitys, which doesnt really give u anything. there is alot of game can be cataloged in this kind. and i dont wish dst become like it.

I agree with you here. Current system doesn't force you to do certain things, which i think is good. But actually that depends on the action. As far as i know, the devs wanted a way to teach the game to new players, so introducing achievements like "dig 10 saplings", "transform a pig into a werepig" and such could be beneficial. As long as those actions don't force you out of your preferred playstyle.

[NNOUS]

The content creator named OrangE had made a video bout what dst/ds had been through. I suggest you to watch that.

[link of the video] https://youtu.be/X87O44EwfO8

 

[Atkvin]

In the frame of the plot and lore, I find it a shame the new skills are hardly even tied to the shadow moon war and allegiances.

Maybe players should get insight points for carrying out tasks for a side, as a reward from Alter/Them for culling the enemy's rifts or downing one of their warriors (future planar bosses)? It'd be more interesting than the time-based progression, at least 

[Mortalbane]

3 hours ago, NNOUS said:

The content creator named OrangE had made a video bout what dst/ds had been through. I suggest you to watch that.

[link of the video] https://youtu.be/X87O44EwfO8

 

Thanks for the link, i watched it (not the whole thing yet).
I assume you were talking about the devs trying to add tutorials and achievements like "survive 5 days", and it turned out to be catastrophic.
Well, though giving people exact tasks and holding their hand might indeed destroy a game, there are different examples.
First of all, people love achievements, myself included. A lot of people try to achieve 100%, if it's not too hard, like in Risk of Rain.
Second, look at Valheim for example - it has tutorials and feels fine. Moreover, i'd really like Klei to take a closer look to some Valheim ideas, like locking progression behind killing bosses, or discovering recipes after picking up a resource. But that's another topic.
Anyway, achievements or tutorials don't have to be literal and holding your hand, they can be enigmatic hints, leaving a player with a feeling that he figured everything out on his own. Like i said, "Transform a pig into werepig" - it hints that you can do it yourself, but how?
There are tons of things and mechanics in DS which a regular player like me would never find without a wiki. And i don't think that is a good thing for a multiplayer game targeting a more or less broad audience.
 

3 hours ago, Atkvin said:

In the frame of the plot and lore, I find it a shame the new skills are hardly even tied to the shadow moon war and allegiances.

Maybe players should get insight points for carrying out tasks for a side, as a reward from Alter/Them for culling the enemy's rifts or downing one of their warriors (future planar bosses)? It'd be more interesting than the time-based progression, at least 

I agree, i was thinking about affinity perks being unlocked via quests instead of perk points, and also introducing some global affinity perks, like Charlie not attacking you at night, in addition to character-specific perks. I have a post about it, but i will make a new and updated one.

[Popian]

Copying what I said elsewhere: it looks like carrying over 8-12 points would be enough to be impactful, maybe 10 to give 5 opportunities to respec on earning a point. Having more tasks than would be required to max out on "progression" points would give players the choice of picking tasks that are easier for them to complete.

Wilson and Woodie need to spend 12 points to unlock their affinity skills so that is something to consider.

[Captain_Rage]

While not being a fan of skill sets in general the current implementation with gaining points as times goes is actually nice. DST should not be an RPG where you gain exp or muck around in order to obtain more points.

[lenship2]

as i have said before, i believe insight should be per world and to compensate you can spawn in with 5 or so insight points

[Mysterious box]

Might be controversial but what if we leaned into encouraging new players to explore the world to get their skill points

3 to start with

2 skill points for visiting the caves

3 skill points for finding the archives

3 skill points for visiting the ruins (not completing just entering)

3 skill points for finding islands at sea (cap of 2 islands for this one) islands being lunar island, pearl, moon quay, and while techinically cheating that giant tree biome.

1 skill point for defeating a mini boss or boss monster.

So what do you guys think?

[Mortalbane]

16 hours ago, Popian said:

Copying what I said elsewhere: it looks like carrying over 8-12 points would be enough to be impactful, maybe 10 to give 5 opportunities to respec on earning a point. Having more tasks than would be required to max out on "progression" points would give players the choice of picking tasks that are easier for them to complete.

Wilson and Woodie need to spend 12 points to unlock their affinity skills so that is something to consider.

 

16 hours ago, lenship2 said:

as i have said before, i believe insight should be per world and to compensate you can spawn in with 5 or so insight points

Yeah, i agree. As they say, the middle ground is where the golden truth resides - part of skill points should be saved, and part earned in each world separately.

 

15 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

Might be controversial but what if we leaned into encouraging new players to explore the world to get their skill points

3 to start with

2 skill points for visiting the caves

3 skill points for finding the archives

3 skill points for visiting the ruins (not completing just entering)

3 skill points for finding islands at sea (cap of 2 islands for this one) islands being lunar island, pearl, moon quay, and while techinically cheating that giant tree biome.

1 skill point for defeating a mini boss or boss monster.

So what do you guys think?

The idea to give skill points for exploration is interesting. It prevents you from turtling in your base, and makes you go and see the game content.
Your suggested math needs some thinking though, cuz it seems that with it the player will have more than 15 skill points.
I'd suggest giving only 1 point for each of that, and only once for bosses. And actually those are a good example of achievements, which people talk about here and there.