I hate this Cave Beta

[JazzyGames]

42 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

For the game to become more challenging, there needs to be real threats to not only your character but to the bases we all hold so preciously. These last 2 updates have been targetting not only players but the bases they think they are safe in.

I've lost track of how many times I have said this but what the hell I'll say it again. The issue is not the idea of threats to bases. The issue is the idea of threats to bases that cannot be prevented. You want to add boulders to earthquakes? Fine, but either add a way to stop them from instantaneously falling on your head or give some lead time so players can get away from structures.

45 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Klei has allowed you to turn this content on from day 1 if u dont want to kill af or CC. You have to willingly start the rifts ingame as well after killing them. And you can turn it off eventually if megabasing is your thing. You can even dupe the items without needing the rifts active.

There is no way to turn the rifts off by actually playing the game. It's a question of what makes good game design, no amount of customization options will change that.

[Gashzer]

53 minutes ago, JazzyGames said:

I've lost track of how many times I have said this but what the hell I'll say it again. The issue is not the idea of threats to bases. The issue is the idea of threats to bases that cannot be prevented. You want to add boulders to earthquakes? Fine, but either add a way to stop them from instantaneously falling on your head or give some lead time so players can get away from structures.

Thats fair, obviously early days for the beta so lots of tweaks will happen.  But Klei shouldnt be scared of making bigger, badder and more base damaging threats. I mean the boulders dropping on us isnt exactly 5star fun gameplay but i was speaking generally that if we had more threats that come knocking at our base in the late game, that would be fun.

1 hour ago, JazzyGames said:

There is no way to turn the rifts off by actually playing the game. It's a question of what makes good game design, no amount of customization options will change that.

 Not yet but wait for the conclusion. One side needs to win this war.

[abrocator]

2 hours ago, Gashzer said:

For the game to become more challenging, there needs to be real threats to not only your character but to the bases we all hold so preciously.

But (as said by many now) destroying parts of a base at that point doesn’t add any challenge.

The only time when destryoing some buildings adds challenge is:

• It’s the first year and you rely a lot on your base for survival
• Maybe the upcoming season demands a certain base infrastructure because you aren’t comfortable playing nomad-style

This isn’t the case for this update:

• You’ve beat FW or CC, which means that either (decision tree time):
  1. You’re well into the game and have a great base infrastructure which won’t be crippled by one earthquake; or
  2. You don’t have much of a base because you more or less rushed the boss, which means that you are so skilled that basic survival is not a problem

So (as said by many now) this only adds tedium, not any challenge.

[Yuuko]

1 hour ago, Gashzer said:

Thats fair, obviously early days for the beta so lots of tweaks will happen.  But Klei shouldnt be scared of making bigger, badder and more base damaging threats. I mean the boulders dropping on us isnt exactly 5star fun gameplay but i was speaking generally that if we had more threats that come knocking at our base in the late game, that would be fun.

 

I think if this were some tower defense style game where your base included defensive battlements you'd have a point, but that is not the case.  There is no counterplay for base destruction in DST besides "don't let the thing near your base."  Which works only if we're able to not let the thing near our base lol.  The system is far too binary.  Its kinda like adding more complicated combat, the core system of DST doesn't support very complicated combat so adding it doesn't really work.  If Klei wants to threaten bases they need to overhaul what base destruction is.

[Gashzer]

16 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

I think if this were some tower defense style game where your base included defensive battlements you'd have a point, but that is not the case.  There is no counterplay for base destruction in DST besides "don't let the thing near your base."  Which works only if we're able to not let the thing near our base lol.  The system is far too binary.  Its kinda like adding more complicated combat, the core system of DST doesn't really support very complicated combat so adding it doesn't really work.  If Klei wants to threaten bases they need to overhaul what base destruction is.

This is a great point. Ive been complaining about how useless walls are except for decor and how the oldest bug of all time using marble statues to block mobs makes for better functional walls is completely crazy.

Klei actually have quite alot of potential fun directions to take the game in... if they want to...

Having base defences and different waves of mobs actively attack to steal different resources, that show up after a late game trigger. This could be a big event that happened once every 2-3 seasons giving you plenty of time to prep and do other things.

 

[MondayNight]

I for one fancy both the Survival and Sandbox experiences of this game and I do admit late-game as well needs some interesting and fun Survival mechanics. With this being said (well, written), what we got via "Super-Earthquakes" Boulders and Acid Rain ain't it.

1st, the Boulders: they are pretty much 1-kill-switch for camps, no matter their sizes (maybe except micro-bases). You have at most a couple of seconds to go far from any structures, this accounting the fact you also need space to maneuver and avoid falling debris. Yes, these Antlion-like boulders drop in 1-tile-around-you-character, but you need to constantly run to not get hit by all the minerals falling, hence space you require for avoidance is much larger. If you're in the middle of anything-not-a-micro-camp, structures will get hit since, as stated, from the moment Earthquake sounds are played and the actual thing happening is a matter of a couple of seconds. Likewise, to me at least, these boulders-in-earthquakes have the same work-energy as Vargs in Hound Waves: lazy/uninspired game design. Given now we got a seemingly Cave infested by Shadows/Horrors, perhaps something related to the Shadow Side should fall from ceiling, be it hostile Horror mobs (those new Mites?) or a special mineral that damages player(s), perhaps. Or another type of boulder that shatters on impact (to elude clustering over time), damaging mobs but not builds. Why not builds? Because we don't have a proper interval to escape/avoild dmg on buildings. Until now, all things coming to destroy camps (Deerclops, Fire Hounds, Antlion) have a decent warning interval for players to take notice and have time to properly react if in the know-how. Current "Super-Earthquakes" Boulders do not. As underlined, this is not a Survival challenge, but a kill-switch that periodically is pressed with the intend to destroy your builds. Is not a fun mechanic to engage with, countering its effects, but solely a periodical almost-unavoidable punishment. Am not even touching upon the multiplayer aspect, where random people with various degrees of DST knowledge can happen upon your base and definitely do damage without any counter (again - mere seconds to react, Earthquakes on default settings occurring every 1-3 in-game days).
(On a separate note, I remember a fellow from a certain community pub, pretty rude one, going bananas each time someone stumbled upon his very-hidden cave base, spamming chat with "GET THE FUKK OUT OF MY CAMP!!!" the moment you encountered him and his base. Is quite ironic now, via these "Super-Earthquakes" Boulders shenanigans, KLei basically enabled this lad, giving him a most-valid reason why no one should be in his quarters - since, most-likely, this would mean unavoidable destruction to it.)

2nd, the Acid Rain: to get this out of the way first - why wasn't a Dark Rain, lore-wise?! Something more interesting, I reckon, could've been done with a rain centered on Shadow/Horror elements, inducing insanity or other sanity-related effect given we do a shadow-related event to trigger it (AFw defeat), ongoing afterwards; and it happens in Caves (dark place, insanity inducing). The Nitre-producing aspect could still happen, but in a more appropriately-thematic setting. Same with mobs effects/stats (for now solely on Batilisks & Naked Mole Bats). But most prevalent aspect regarding Acid Rain is the means to counter it - only one, a "tier 2" Shadow Umbrella occupying hand slot. As others above pointed, is a unique lock-and-key solution, uninspired once more. Could've gone with upgrading existing items via Pure Horror/Dark Tatters, a more sensible approach I believe, and for a wide array of items (Rain Coat, Eyebrella, Rain Hat etc). I suppose KLei will introduce in future more Acid Rain related clothing, or rather I do hope so.

All-in-all, both "Super-Earthquakes" Boulders and Acid Rain feel more like place-holders, and mostly "punishments for the sake of punishment". This isn't fun, engaging, entertaining, rather feels more like some hastily-made mods if anything for what some random players think as "uncompromising" Survival. Hope KLei does take notice of people feedback and comes up with better variants for aforementioned mechanics in this "new Cave season".

[Mysterious box]

2 hours ago, cybers2001 said:

Who are these mythical unicorn players that play for survival and willingly continue to live in their decaying world for many hours after beating every single boss and conquering all the content just so they can fight rifts over and over?

Believe it or not there are plenty of players who play dst for survival content and I feel like people trying to imply they're nonexistent and matter much less than mega basers is just operating in bad faith for one reason or another everyone isn't into mega basing and there are infact those of us who enjoy the rift content. Personally I feel like if the only true appeal of dst is mega basing then it's failed as a survival game.

3 minutes ago, MostMerryTomcat said:

Vargs in Hound Waves: lazy/uninspired game design.

They were added to lessen the amount amount of hounds swarming you at once in late game hound waves from what I remember x amount of hounds become a varglette.

As for the boulders they just need a longer warning timer

6 minutes ago, MostMerryTomcat said:

2nd, the Acid Rain: to get this out of the way first - why wasn't a Dark Rain, lore-wise?!

I mean logically speaking it seems like the intensified earthquakes are freeing polluted areas of the cave causing the water coming down to be contaminated at least that was my understanding.

[MondayNight]

8 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

They were added to lessen the amount amount of hounds swarming you at once in late game hound waves from what I remember x amount of hounds become a varglette.

As for the boulders they just need a longer warning timer

To be fair, the Vargs-in-Hound Waves started as a meme in UM. By no metric is a reasonable amount of danger per players capita, unless said players "hug" most times various Hound Trap contraptions. Also why the same, tired, Antlion Boulders and not something new? To me it still feels like a chap solution/placeholder.

 

9 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

I mean logically speaking it seems like the intensified earthquakes are freeing polluted areas of the cave causing the water coming down to be contaminated at least that was my understanding.

That looks like a "headcanon". They aren't intensified, just the same Earthquakes - but now with added Boulders. There isn't any "polluted area" mechanic in-game. Meanwhile Shadow corruption is in the lore, with Ancients metamorphosis. Nitre (KNO₃) and Acid Rain (H₂O + CO₂ (g) ⇌ H₂CO₃ | H₂O + H₂CO₃ ⇌ HCO−3 + H₃O⁺) aren't in a causality relation.

[Mysterious box]

3 minutes ago, MostMerryTomcat said:

That looks like a "headcanon". They aren't intensified, just the same Earthquakes - but now with added Boulders. There isn't any "polluted area" mechanic in-game. Meanwhile Shadow corruption is in the lore, with Ancients metamorphosis. Nitre (KNO₃) and Acid Rain (H₂O + CO₂ (g) ⇌ H₂CO₃ | H₂O + H₂CO₃ ⇌ HCO−3 + H₃O⁺) aren't in a causality relation.

Yeah they make bigger chunks because of stronger earthquakes. And real science isn't a very big factor of how the game operates it's more so on cartoony logic where it almost makes sense if you turn your brain off like the butterflies and the hambat.

But on the flip side what are we assuming Shadow creatures are poisoning our water supply and turning the rocks big? Yes the lame joke was intended...

That aside it's fine for there to be unintended consequences unrelated to the Shadows caused by the events that took place.

11 minutes ago, MostMerryTomcat said:

Also why the same, tired, Antlion Boulders and not something new? To me it still feels like a chap solution/placeholder.

New content doesn't always need to be new it can also be an evolution of what we've already experienced or mechanics taken to their extreme many good games do it.

[cybers2001]

1 hour ago, Mysterious box said:

Believe it or not there are plenty of players who play dst for survival content and I feel like people trying to imply they're nonexistent and matter much less than mega basers is just operating in bad faith for one reason or another everyone isn't into mega basing and there are infact those of us who enjoy the rift content. Personally I feel like if the only true appeal of dst is mega basing then it's failed as a survival game.

Not really bad faith. There's an outspoken minority that claims to represent a group of players who apparently can only enjoy new content if its to the detriment of megabasers.

In my opinion, what makes DST stand out among all other survival games is the balance of form and function in base design. Most other games fall short of this, where bases can either be pretty (but mostly pointless), or functional (but aesthetically bland). DST's replay value comes from being able to build large bases that feel alive and meaningful as you essentially coexist in the world. If I just want an incrementally challenging survival game, there's plenty of other games to choose from.

[Mysterious box]

15 minutes ago, cybers2001 said:

Not really bad faith. There's an outspoken minority that claims to represent a group of players who apparently can only enjoy new content if its to the detriment of megabasers.

Based on what specifcally streamers? Also the reverse can be said about your stance does the game need to be held back for the sake of megabasers if so we may as well just scrap the survival genre on this game all together we"re against unfair mechanics as much as anyone rifts spawning on base was unfair and everyone agreed on that but base being some sacred ground where nothing bad can happen isn't fun or interesting from a survival perspective.

[cybers2001]

3 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Based on what specifcally streamers? Also the reverse can be said about your stance does the game need to be held back for the sake of megabasers if so we may as well just scrap the survival genre on this game all together we"re against unfair mechanics as much as anyone rifts spawning on base was unfair and everyone agreed on that but base being some sacred ground where nothing bad can happen isn't fun or interesting from a survival perspective.

So have you not been having fun for the past 7 years in this game? Dang, that's a long time.

[Mysterious box]

21 minutes ago, cybers2001 said:

So have you not been having fun for the past 7 years in this game? Dang, that's a long time.

Wow there's been no elements that can destroy base in 7 years?

[cybers2001]

6 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Wow there's been no elements that can destroy base in 7 years?

So then what are you complaining about? You're the one saying that preventing Klei from adding new destructive content will spell death for the game. In any case, the main gripe basers have with the new content vs the old destructive content is that there really isn't much of any counter-measure against the new content. You just have to endure the endless barrage until Klei eventually introduces a (non world-settings) means to turn it off.

[Mysterious box]

22 minutes ago, cybers2001 said:

So then what are you complaining about? You're the one saying that preventing Klei from adding new destructive content will spell death for the game. In any case, the main gripe basers have with the new content vs the old destructive content is that there really isn't much of any counter-measure against the new content. You just have to endure the endless barrage until Klei eventually introduces a (non world-settings) means to turn it off.

Seasons, hound waves, and seasonal bosses are also barrages of content you have to endure until you turn them off as well. Currently the boulder mechanic drops them too fast but the counterplay that's been suggested is increasing their warning times meaning it would become the same as normal earthquakes which is move out of the way in time. The counter play to acid rain is to either use the new umbrella or use gear without rain protection when you need to fight but it also might need afew tweaks.

However claiming noone really plays into the endgame for survival content or even implying that the only real opinion that seems to matter in this area for content is mega basers just comes off as a elitist mindset. And I'm not saying it will spell the death of the game but it'll definitely turn off players if how the game going forward has to be designed is based purely on the whims of one part of the community. Again I'm not saying all content has to blow up base or something but new content should be allowed to threaten our resources and base to a fair degree as well it is the end game right?

[Mike23Ua]

Ima say this only once- Xbox Live sells games by categorizing them in a genre category that closely defines them. For example: if you play Dead Island Definitive Edition- Xbox will Suggest Dead Island 2, Dead Rising or even State of Decay because these are all zombie survival games.

KLEI needs to figure out what type of GAME they want the Dont Starve Franchise to actually BE and stick to that.. currently playing DS will recommend games like DST, Spelunky 2, WindBound. Because DS/DST is listed as a Rogue-Like/Sandbox Survival Horror game so it’s in the category with things like Tainted Grail Conquest & Minecraft.

I personally feel like DST should offer more or less the same kind of experiences you got from DS, SW & Hamlet.

And when the games new content goes out of its way to “intentionally” avoid your base- that’s when there’s something very very wrong with the games “Identity” 

And Klei needs to discover WHAT they want that Identity to be & stick to it.

[_zwb]

3 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

And when the games new content goes out of its way to “intentionally” avoid your base- that’s when there’s something very very wrong with the games “Identity” 
 

By that logic should we allow Loot Stash, Nightmare Werepig, lunar and shadow rifts spawn in your base(Currently they can't spawn if there's a structure close enough to them)? How would you feel if loot stash breaks your structures and spawn right on top of it? Would that be something challenging or just purely obnoxious?

The boulder patch is not so good but getting your base destroyed(and there's no way to avoid it) is not either.

[Mysterious box]

10 minutes ago, _zwb said:

By that logic should we allow Loot Stash, Nightmare Werepig, lunar and shadow rifts spawn in your base(Currently they can't spawn if there's a structure close enough to them)? How would you feel if loot stash breaks your structures and spawn right on top of it? Would that be something challenging or just purely obnoxious?

The boulder patch is not so good but getting your base destroyed(and there's no way to avoid it) is not either.

That's some weird logic Mike isn't saying all content should spawn on top of you but that content shouldn't go out of it's way to avoid you either which is the direction don't starve is heading into. I'm starting to think if hound waves were added these days they wouldn't start until you got a certain distance from a structure and would stop as soon as you approached one.

[_zwb]

3 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

content shouldn't go out of it's way to avoid you either

That's what Fuel Weaver and Celestial Champion questlines did. There's no way you can figure it out how the hell can you summon them spoiler free. That's avoiding you (unintended but still kinda is) 

Seriously though, the Loot Stash is literally avoiding you: if you're too close to its spawning point then it'll skip that one and look for another. The lunar rift won't spawn if there's a structure in a 25 tiles radius circle (because that's the maximum range the lunar tiles can go, you wouldn't want pure brilliance start growing in your base and destroying stuff would you?

Of course they shouldn't spawn right on you but boulders aren't really avoiding you, this is just a band-aid fix for a bad punishment

[Hornete]

5 minutes ago, _zwb said:

you wouldn't want pure brilliance start growing in your base and destroying stuff would you?

No, but I would love for them to temporarily mutate things!

Wasn't a fan of the route Klei took for making the lunar rifts just avoid player bases. I think I would have adored if they mutated things to lunar counterparts but reverted back after the rift goes away. No destruction, just mutation that you can keep if you transport the mutated object away, and if not, let it revert back afterwards, no harm done!

Now the rift just magically avoids bases from a very far distance while slowly uprooting and destroying the world outside. Alas, I hope they will go back to it sometime and rethink the design behind it.

[Mysterious box]

7 minutes ago, _zwb said:

That's what Fuel Weaver and Celestial Champion questlines did. There's no way you can figure it out how the hell can you summon them spoiler free. That's avoiding you (unintended but still kinda is) 

Seriously though, the Loot Stash is literally avoiding you: if you're too close to its spawning point then it'll skip that one and look for another. The lunar rift won't spawn if there's a structure in a 25 tiles radius circle (because that's the maximum range the lunar tiles can go, you wouldn't want pure brilliance start growing in your base and destroying stuff would you?

Of course they shouldn't spawn right on you but boulders aren't really avoiding you, this is just a band-aid fix for a bad punishment

There was nothing wrong with boulders as a concept the problem was i didn't give you enough time to react being punished for not reacting in time however is a fair consequence. The difference with the rift and loot stash is that it would he completely unavoidable which is bad but if it's avoidable it becomes ok.

[Mike23Ua]

29 minutes ago, _zwb said:

By that logic should we allow Loot Stash, Nightmare Werepig, lunar and shadow rifts spawn in your base(Currently they can't spawn if there's a structure close enough to them)? How would you feel if loot stash breaks your structures and spawn right on top of it? Would that be something challenging or just purely obnoxious?

The boulder patch is not so good but getting your base destroyed(and there's no way to avoid it) is not either.

I feel like your massively missing my point, and I could use the “bubble shield” from popular shooters like Apex Legends & Fortnite to convey my message across more clearly.. but a lot of people for some reason or another get very upset when you try to use “Gamer Talk” to express something about a Video game, on the forums of a Video Game. *shrugs*
 

SO instead: I’ll use IN-GAME examples.

Klei Adds Pirate Raids, They happen anywhere at Sea, Fanbase whines and complains that they ruin their fun of peaceful boat fishing or making funny boat bases- Klei Nerfs the hell out of pirate raids so that they now only spawn when your very close to their island actively searching for them OR Use a Flare that Summons them to your location when your ready to fight them.

Now I’m not the smartest person in the world… but how does any of that make for a good “Survival Game?”

I am losing a LOT of fate in Klei to deliver the kind of experiences I expect out of their games anymore- which is more or less more of what made DS & its DLC’s DS…

Tell me why SW and Hamlet crank the challenges up to 11 by having hostile mobs have a “chance” to spawn from the trees you chop or the stones you flip over, or the vases you bust open.. 

But when it comes to DST- I have to craft a flare that summons what should’ve been a “hostile” mob?

[Mysterious box]

3 minutes ago, Hornete said:

No, but I would love for them to temporarily mutate things!

Wasn't a fan of the route Klei took for making the lunar rifts just avoid player bases. I think I would have adored if they mutated things to lunar counterparts but reverted back after the rift goes away. No destruction, just mutation that you can keep if you transport the mutated object away, and if not, let it revert back afterwards, no harm done!

Now the rift just magically avoids bases from a very far distance while slowly uprooting and destroying the world outside. Alas, I hope they will go back to it sometime and rethink the design behind it.

I'm also really getting annoyed as well with this content mustn't harm the status quo approach Kiel has been leaning into after getting any form of backlash rather than coming up with creative solutions to the problems they came up with.

[Hornete]

1 minute ago, Mysterious box said:

I'm also really getting annoyed as well with this content mustn't harm the status quo approach Kiel has been leaning into after getting any form of backlash rather than coming up with creative solutions to the problems they came up with.

This one I've been feeling a bit sad about too recently. I don't want things to just destroy bases, that would be very annoying! But I love the idea of these rifts scarring the world in unique ways.

Klei's generally pretty good with making fixes that feel good and "real", it's only been a few cases over these years that felt "video-gamey" to me personally (Telelocator focus's being prevented from being built on boats, the rift spawn mechanics)

Shadow Rift portal avoiding bases seems fair enough to me as it does ground pounds when it expands, fracturing and cracking in it's animations. But as I said above I would have really loved for the lunar rift to scar the areas it inhabits temporarily with mutation as it slowly reverts.

[Gashzer]

@Be2014 i take back all of my comments on this topic.

I also hate this cave beta.