[Game Update] - 555166

[Yuuko]

23 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

No the fact you can only access them there is the reason removing them means there is zero justification to return yea someone might not use them, but if they ever wanted to in the future they need to go there. Whereas if you make them diggable you essentially delete the biome.

This is POST-CC content.  You've literally already done all of the "need to go to x biome" already by this point.

But this indicates a fundamental disagreement - imo the best "end game loop" for dst is to return to sandbox, allowing the player to optional re-trigger events as desired.  This fits with DST as its existed so far where most events are optional anyway rather than being forced on the players.  No one says in 1000 days playing you have to deal with dfly, bqueen, afw, etc.  You only get 2 bosses actually spawning on you, only 1 if you count that bearger can be left somewhere never to respawn again.

Remember it was made this way to facilitate a more sandbox experience in the first place.  Allowing players to join and drop more easily even in long term worlds.  Hound waves scale based on played time not world time, extra resources are generated when joining a late world, etc.

You may prefer some type of NG+ experience where monster health / damage / speed is all tuned up, stat checking the player and continually scaling up until you're literally force-killed b/c there is actually no option available to survive.  If you like that, then nothing we say about what we want from a sandbox experience is going to sit well with you anyway.  It doesn't matter if its relocating more resources, more options for waxing plants to lock in their appearance, having in-game ways to disable tedious and annoying world events, etc.

I mean, if you think that is fun then suggest it.  No reason to worry about how OP it might be to relocate a few cactus after you've completed literally every objective in the game and you just want to SEE something somewhere else to further enable player creativity...

Edited May 3, 2023 by Shosuko

[Mike23Ua]

I’m personally hoping that player creativity after doing everything else isn’t all we end up left with.. and I for one will be incredibly disappointed if the Ancient Gateway is finally reassembled and the only thing it does is pull a Borderlands one “Vault Moment” Aka- Another big boring, highly disappointing boss fight.

INSTEAD I’m hoping that gateway leads Elsewhere- perhaps to an actual New Game + with new mobs, new resources, new weather effects, new mob behavior patterns.. whatever it is.

We have enough bosses..

The creators of Borderlands KNEW they screwed up when the final objective was a laughably easy to kill stationary boss.. that’s why when they created DLC they took the suggestions of what people ACTUALLY wanted to see and implemented them- Secret Armory of General Knox doesn’t end with yet another Boss.. it ends with you running through a massive Armory of Weapons looting whatever you can before a countdown timer goes off blowing the place to Smithereens.

This is taking the “Vault” that was originally teased throughout the whole game to end in a disappointing boss fight, and giving us that satisfaction through fan feedback.

With Rifts opening up in the constant spewing out Klei only knows what, and a Gateway that’s been unfinished for so long finally being put back together: Klei has the biggest opportunity here to deliver the new biomes, mobs, resources, progression etc.. I had hoped to see.

However past updates have proven I should expect another boss fight or a limited time Event like Gorge/Forge.. and not to get my hopes up on a DLC sized new area to explore.

 

Edited May 3, 2023 by Mike23Ua

[Yuuko]

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

ends with you running through a massive Armory of Weapons looting whatever you can before a countdown timer goes off blowing the place to Smithereens

 

imo this sounds great for a story driven game, but in a sandbox game like DST I don't think it fits.

NG+ is a trap imo b/c any new difficulty requires new player options to address the new difficulty.  It becomes an arms race, where sure you unlock a harder boss but you get a bigger sword anyway... and if they DON'T give you that stuff then it just becomes longer, more tedious, requires players to resort to extremely janky methods, and often feels like the game is flat out cheating, not challenging.  The game isn't another player, creating new strategies you have to react to.  Its a mathematical process.  Every AI, pathing, attack pattern, etc is exploitable.  Its true for ALL games too, not just DST - Its the reality even in Souls games.

Rogue Legacy was a game that really suffered from this.  NG+ 1 was alright, 2 was awkward, and 3-4+ were just absolute jank.  The enemies would 1 shot you and take an hour to kill.  Fighting them just wasn't an option, so you do what any smart player does in this situation and choose the option that completely bypasses all interaction aka cheese.  You pick a character that can go invis on cd and just invis through the stages.  It sounds good on paper, and the first time its alright, but for players who sink 1K++ hours into a game... its a dead end.

I mean there is a reason things like pirate raids got the treatment they did.  One player getting hit by a raid, can't outrun them, boarded by 6 monkeys with no room to actually dodge / kite / etc with stunlock how it is, and the "intended" interaction locked behind having already overcome this obstacle, with punishments awarded regardless of success or fail (fail = boat ruined, success = cursed trinkets and probably also boat ruined) and the reward?  Completely nonexistant...  Why would a player ever engage in such content?  The answer is they won't.  Okay, maybe some very very VERY SMALL percentage wants to just watch their character die over and over again, but lets let outliers lie.

Its not interactable.  When things reach that level the correct player response is to restore to non-interactive methods such as goose form to find the island, launching from the direct vicinity with a quick trip there and back.  Basically bypassing all of that content.  Players just go out of their way to delete it, so Klei effectively deletes it on their end instead.  Funny they tried something similar with the portal - literal forced base destruction...  Its not a viable path forward.  I know some people like to talk about how they need UnCoMpOrMiZiNg mOdE but the game is better served by giving those players the finger, and delivering on interactable, engaging, rewarding content with fair challenges instead of forced player death, base destruction, and world resets...

I strongly doubt Klei is going to put a whole new world's worth of content in the post-game.  What we're likely to get are new mobs, new resources derived from those mobs, and new gear that will replace all existing gear at doing the exact same thing.  The scaling of stuff like the BS plants, planar damage, and tier 2 resources / harvesting equipment will feel interesting at first but will eventually feel normal as we learn the new stuff and reach parity again, ending exactly where this arc started OR things just continually scale up until stat checks create forced-death.

imo MineCraft is a much more suitable analog for DST than Borderlands, Souls, or even Terraria.

Edited May 3, 2023 by Shosuko

[Mysterious box]

48 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

You may prefer some type of NG+ experience where monster health / damage / speed is all tuned up, stat checking the player and continually scaling up until you're literally force-killed b/c there is actually no option available to survive.  If you like that, then nothing we say about what we want from a sandbox experience is going to sit well with you anyway.  It doesn't matter if its relocating more resources, more options for waxing plants to lock in their appearance, having in-game ways to disable tedious and annoying world events, etc.

I mean, if you think that is fun then suggest it.  No reason to worry about how OP it might be to relocate a few cactus after you've completed literally every objective in the game and you just want to SEE something somewhere else to further enable player creativity...

Not sure where you got this idea that anyone who wants the survival aspect to continue wants the game to scale infinitely until it's actually unplayable but my issue isn't that they want to relocate these resources but the idea that they take the benefits of them with them bypassing the potiental desire to ever return to these biomes as previously said I wouldn't have a issue if they lose their resource functions but stay in appearance only.

1 hour ago, Shosuko said:

This is POST-CC content.  You've literally already done all of the "need to go to x biome" already by this point.

You never need to go to specific biomes but that doesn't mean you should have to stop working to maintain resources lines if you want to make use of them that's trivalizing the survival aspect

People love to lean on the fact that don't starve together is a sandbox as though it's the only part that matters but it's also a survival game so resource collection as well as biomes shouldn't be completely trivalized in every aspect making travel pointless as soon as you start the end game content. That's when I feel you should just ask for a creative mode yes we have terraforming options but there need to be limits to not completely compromise the survival experience if we're to assume this should continue as a survival sandbox and not just a sandbox.

1 hour ago, Shosuko said:

Remember it was made this way to facilitate a more sandbox experience in the first place.  Allowing players to join and drop more easily even in long term worlds.  Hound waves scale based on played time not world time, extra resources are generated when joining a late world, etc

No these were made with both aspects in mind a but mostly for the sake of multiplayer. Also a survival game where you don't have enough resources or time to reasonably get started isn't a survival game.

1 hour ago, Shosuko said:

But this indicates a fundamental disagreement - imo the best "end game loop" for dst is to return to sandbox, allowing the player to optional re-trigger events as desired.  This fits with DST as its existed so far where most events are optional anyway rather than being forced on the players. 

I would argue this has been a long term flaw of DST while all the content shouldn't be breathing down your neck at all times I know a fair bit of the community doesn't engage with content specifically because they have to try so hard for it to engage back.

[Yuuko]

2 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

You never need to go to specific biomes but that doesn't mean you should have to stop working to maintain resources lines if you want to make use of them that's trivalizing the survival aspect

What survival aspects are being trivialized?  Getting cactus from the oasis is easy.  Getting it from the dfly desert MIGHT be a bit more tricky if you have a lot of hounds, but literally deal with them once just to harvest it and the problem is gone.  Swamps and muddy biome are the same, any tentacles, slurpers, depth worms etc next to the resources need to be cleared out for first collection anyway.

If the problem is gone, what survival aspect is being trivialized by letting them be relocated?  Just the time it takes to walk there?  Is that the challenging part if dst, having to walk places?  I mean really with wanda watches, wicker books, maxwel gathering, and bundle wraps you can easily fill a chest with stacks of these things in one trip.  Why not let them be relocated?

[Mike23Ua]

Dealing with it once and the problem is forever gone is EXACTLY my problem with DST. 

Klei lets easily killable adorable Catcoons Respawn so Wigfrid never needs to worry about her meat only diet ever again.. 

Meanwhile, Swamp Tentacles, Killer Bee Hives, & Hound Dens Don’t Respawn (Aka the hostile mob stuff)

[Dextops]

6 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Dealing with it once and the problem is forever gone is EXACTLY my problem with DST. 

Klei lets easily killable adorable Catcoons Respawn so Wigfrid never needs to worry about her meat only diet ever again.. 

it amazes me how you can say a reasonable thing and have the weirdest reasoning imaginable

[Mysterious box]

25 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

What survival aspects are being trivialized?  Getting cactus from the oasis is easy.  Getting it from the dfly desert MIGHT be a bit more tricky if you have a lot of hounds, but literally deal with them once just to harvest it and the problem is gone.  Swamps and muddy biome are the same, any tentacles, slurpers, depth worms etc next to the resources need to be cleared out for first collection anyway.

If the problem is gone, what survival aspect is being trivialized by letting them be relocated?  Just the time it takes to walk there?  Is that the challenging part if dst, having to walk places?  I mean really with wanda watches, wicker books, maxwel gathering, and bundle wraps you can easily fill a chest with stacks of these things in one trip.  Why not let them be relocated?

Survival isn't just about beating things to death it's also about time and resource management getting cactus takes time less for some than others but time is still expended that could be used doing other things this one aspect isn't a lot but little choices like it coming together is what builds a survival experience.

[Wonz]

7 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

time and resource management

That's long dead in many areas.  About food and spoilage for example you have stonefruits and bundle wraps to completely not worry about it and you can carry massive amounts in single slot. Why care just now?

[Antynomity]

1 hour ago, Wonz said:

That's long dead in many areas.  About food and spoilage for example you have stonefruits and bundle wraps to completely not worry about it and you can carry massive amounts in single slot. Why care just now?

Because we need the true UNCOMPROMISING KLEI SURVIVAL GAME EXPERIENCE, my friend, oh you did everything in a game? How dare you want to save time or get some decorations from previous things in return?!

[Mysterious box]

4 hours ago, Wonz said:

That's long dead in many areas.  About food and spoilage for example you have stonefruits and bundle wraps to completely not worry about it and you can carry massive amounts in single slot. Why care just now?

I mean if it's because it's been weakened in some areas therefore we shouldn't care in all areas is the justification here we could apply it to everything why not just make a relocatable glass, nightmare fuel, and thulecite plant that passively produces those resources that you can place in your base it would save time wouldn't it? While we're at it lets just make all content able to be packed into single screen surely that would make for a engaging experience I mean imagine how much time we'd save. Personally I hate the idea that biomes only exist for us to plunder all the original renewable resources of a area to create a super biome never to return to where you got them if traveling to make use of specific resources is tedious then it's the travel that should be looked into not the excuse "well you can already do X".

3 hours ago, yourAnty said:

Because we need the true UNCOMPROMISING KLEI SURVIVAL GAME EXPERIENCE, my friend, oh you did everything in a game? How dare you want to save time or get some decorations from previous things in return?!

Your right how dare people want the survival aspect to continue in our sandbox only game. 

[Dextops]

3 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

Your right how dare people want the survival aspect to continue in our sandbox only game. 

True, decorative plants are ruining this game tbh tbh, they ruin the uncompromising survival aspect. It needs to be that you can just never interact with lichen cacti or anything else of the sort cause they’re mostly useless after a certain point, instead of allowing us to decorate them.

[Mysterious box]

18 minutes ago, Dextops said:

True, decorative plants are ruining this game tbh tbh, they ruin the uncompromising survival aspect. It needs to be that you can just never interact with lichen cacti or anything else of the sort cause they’re mostly useless after a certain point, instead of allowing us to decorate them.

Funnily enough people love to ignore I've said I'd be fine with them being relocatable for decorating so long as their ability to produce the resource was removed multiple times in this thread but I guess responding with that in mind doesn't make it as easy to ridicule.

I mean if they're so useless why are you all do set on getting their resources or are you all just willfully ignoring what I'm saying for daring to disagree?

[Dextops]

21 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Funnily enough people love to ignore I've said I'd be fine with them being relocatable for decorating so long as their ability to produce the resource was removed multiple times in this thread but I guess responding with that in mind doesn't make it as easy to ridicule.

I don’t see why it needs to be removed because these things are not op at all in the first place. You’re past the point where these things provide much usefulness. Yeah they’re mostly gonna be used for decorative purposes, and yeah you could remove their ability to produce but there really isn’t a point in doing that.

[Captain_Rage]

Let us dig up the Antlion with a shovel and catch the Ancient Fuelweaver with a bug net and move them around for that sweet immersion and awesome aesthetics, because we all know that if moving lichen (equally silly) becomes reality this is the natural follow-up request from the people who want to have everything in game on the same screen.

In recent updates many decorative items have been added which makes requests to further strip biomes of their uniqueness rather awkward. Oh, well. There goes the effort to make game with a memorable world with different areas and elements.

[Dextops]

12 minutes ago, Captain_Rage said:

Let us dig up the Antlion with a shovel and catch the Ancient Fuelweaver with a bug net and move them around for that sweet immersion and awesome aesthetics, because we all know that if moving lichen (equally silly) becomes reality this is the natural follow-up request from the people who want to have everything in game on the same screen.

In recent updates many decorative items have been added which makes requests to further strip biomes of their uniqueness rather awkward. Oh, well. There goes the effort to make game with a memorable world with different areas and elements.

I genuinely can’t tell if this is sarcasm or not, I’m still trying to decipher it 

[Mysterious box]

2 hours ago, Dextops said:

I don’t see why it needs to be removed because these things are not op at all in the first place. You’re past the point where these things provide much usefulness. Yeah they’re mostly gonna be used for decorative purposes, and yeah you could remove their ability to produce but there really isn’t a point in doing that.

There's also no point in not letting us use deerclopes as a mount that doesn't attack I mean it wouldn't be op and there are better alternatives so why not? The entire argument for this is just well I mean uh it's not very good anyway. Why is it so egregious to have unique plants that we can't completely manipulate to our advantage and are special to certain areas of the game? Why is the viability of it even a major part of the arguement. I once again say if they're not very useful what's the harm in just making them purely decorative so as to leave some small level of uniqueness to the concept of their biomes?

Edited May 4, 2023 by Mysterious box

[Dextops]

5 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

There's also no point in not letting us use deerclopes as a mount that doesn't attack I mean it wouldn't be op and there are better alternatives so why not? The entire argument for this is just well I mean uh it's not very good anyway. Why is it so egregious to have unique plants that we can't completely manipulate to our advantage and are special to certain areas of the game? Why is the viability of it even a major part of the arguement. I once again say if they're not very useful what's the harm in just making them purely decorative so as to leave some small level of uniqueness to the concept of their biomes?

Cause they look nice in my base 

[Mysterious box]

Just now, Dextops said:

Cause they look nice in my base 

Do decorative ones look less appealing than resource producing ones?

[MEATGOOD]

lichen subsribe 

[Dextops]

14 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

leave some small level of uniqueness to the concept of their biomes?

If a biome relies on a single piece of flora to be unique I’d like to see it have an update so it doesn’t rely on that but I also just disagree with the uniqueness thing. Things like lichen is something 90% of players will barely ever interact with, so in that biome they’re basically already used for decorative purposes. Cactus is more useful but by the time you get it it is again just decorative. Having them just being decorative without producing anything would be a waste of development time because what people are already gonna be doing with them is use them for nothing but decor. I’d be fine if they were relinquished of their producing abilities I just don’t see the point of that being the case.

[Mysterious box]

11 minutes ago, Dextops said:

If a biome relies on a single piece of flora to be unique I’d like to see it have an update so it doesn’t rely on that but I also just disagree with the uniqueness thing. Things like lichen is something 90% of players will barely ever interact with, so in that biome they’re basically already used for decorative purposes. Cactus is more useful but by the time you get it it is again just decorative. Having them just being decorative without producing anything would be a waste of development time because what people are already gonna be doing with them is use them for nothing but decor. I’d be fine if they were relinquished of their producing abilities I just don’t see the point of that being the case.

It's not just the single piece it's all the pieces together even if you add something new what's the point if all that is removed as well? What makes areas special on a atmospheric level are the things we can't remove from them if we can take everything away what separates biomes why even go anywhere? Why would you ever leave base?

 

[Dextops]

6 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

It's not just the single piece it's all the pieces together even if you add something new what's the point if all that is removed as well? What makes areas special on a atmospheric level are the things we can't remove from them if we can take everything away what separates biomes why even go anywhere? Why would you ever leave base?

 

Imma be honest, what are you talking about. I really really really really REALLY don’t see how me digging up lichen and lightbulbs cause they look pretty ruins the entirety of the caves/ the biomes they’re found in. If it was atmospheric for you then by that logic we shouldn’t be able to dig up turfs, but we are because this is a sandbox game and building a large component in that. These things are not integral to it all and I can tell you no one is going outside to the ruins to look at lichen cause it looks pretty. They’re not interacting it or noticing it at all cause it serves little to no function. I just wanna dig it up.

[Mysterious box]

1 hour ago, Dextops said:

this is a sandbox game and building a large component in that.

Honestly all I've learned from this thread overall seems to be that you guys seem to feel don't starve together is just a sandbox game and all content should solely be built around that concept.

[Mike23Ua]

This thread makes me wonder what DST would be like if Just like Real-Life Certain Plants & Wildlife could only Thrive in a Specific Atmosphere?

Imagine if say for Example, Monkey Tails could only be placed in Shallow Ocean, or on the edges of land that connects to the Ocean.

Or if Certain farm crops could only grow at their best if placed in a particular Biome- Again.. just like Real-Life! 

Sure you CAN grow/raise things out of their natural habitat, but that also requires a freaking boatload ton more of work, time, and care.

With DST: Most of Y’all tend to think it’s a GOOD IDEA to be able to just throw everything you want into your base, and never need to leave base unless your going to go fight a completely optional boss for the 7000th time.

Its Stupid, and I’m not even going dispute that fact with anyone… 

If you really need to see how stupid it is for yourself though, Imagine what playing Solo DS’s Adventures Mode would’ve been like if you could’ve just relocated every cleverly placed resource to exactly where you wanted it.

It is.. dare I say, “Game-Breaking” and I don’t give a darn how many bosses you’ve killed to reach that point.