We have enough weapons and armor

[BezKa]

I think we should stop getting new ones. There's other powerful stuff we could use, like better walls, tools with their own niche, structures. More turfs that do something, currently only scaled flooring has any function besides decoration.

More weapons and armor is just annoying at this point. We already have good stuff, weird niche stuff and ways to increase the damage. And I personally can't choose a side on whether we should get something that breaks the 68 limit or not. Making a new mechanic just to add weapons that follow this mechanic is redundant imo.

Stuff we could use in game:

-self healing walls

-better hammer

-some niche tool for gathering marble

-a shovel that can move non-diggable resources (though I'm not 100% behind that idea)

-hoe that can till several spots at once

-new forms of storage

-a way to keep mobs in one place without walls ex chain (like keeping a pet koalefant at base)

I'm tired of endless arguments about weapons and armor.

[JosePapp]

Cool item ideas, but i don't see why we couldn't have both 

[maxwell_winters]

Klei said they want to make the end game more challenging. Therefore, they need to add more gear to help us fight new dangers. Besides, they try to make The Shadow and The Moon equally appealing, which couldn't be done with only Glass Cutters.

[Maxil20]

Something I’ve always wanted is for weapons to use more of the “lesser” tuned mechanics, especially range and attack speed.

A lot of the reason most people don’t like new weapons is that all of them feel pretty same-y. They all have short range with average attack speeds, and not much difference in terms of those. The only ones that really differ are the tail of three cats and the alarming clock, and the latter is the only ones that’s super good.

I’ve always thought it would be cool, for instance, if the shadow pieces dropped weapons that players could choose what they see fit. The bishops could drop shadow daggers that do low damage rapid hits, the rook could drop a hammer which does significant  damage with a long windup time (like the cork bat from hamlet, but much more damage) and the knight could drop a lance that was Essentially the “well rounded” of the three, with slightly increased range. This would give players more merit to choose what weapons they want to use, while adding some unique interactions (ex: shadow daggers could be interesting with the enlightened crown to greatly boost the damage at the cost of needing to monitor sanity far more frequently).

I just feel you could add new weapons in DST without them necessarily being unwarranted, if they did do some neat tweaks to them.

[BezKa]

15 minutes ago, Maxil20 said:

shadow daggers that do low damage rapid hits, the rook could drop a hammer which does significant  damage with a long windup time (like the cork bat from hamlet, but much more damage) and the knight could drop a lance that was Essentially the “well rounded” of the three

I'm sorry but I can recognize Stardew Valley weapons at a glance /lh

And yeah, new weapons that are different enough I guess are okay, but I still think we need stuff other than weapons more.

 

[Maxil20]

15 minutes ago, BezKa said:

I'm sorry but I can recognize Stardew Valley weapons at a glance

You know, considering I just did a 100% perfection file a month ago, I’m amazed I didn’t realize how similar they sounded to them…

[ButterStuffed]

2 hours ago, Maxil20 said:

I’ve always thought it would be cool, for instance, if the shadow pieces dropped weapons that players could choose what they see fit. The bishops could drop shadow daggers that do low damage rapid hits, the rook could drop a hammer which does significant  damage with a long windup time (like the cork bat from hamlet, but much more damage) and the knight could drop a lance that was Essentially the “well rounded” of the three, with slightly increased range. This would give players more merit to choose what weapons they want to use, while adding some unique interactions (ex: shadow daggers could be interesting with the enlightened crown to greatly boost the damage at the cost of needing to monitor sanity far more frequently).

I vaguely remember there being code that implied this was going to be the case, but the placeholder night armor and sword were never changed.

Maybe that will change soon.

[Evelo]

4 hours ago, BezKa said:

I'm tired of endless arguments about weapons and armor.

1000000000% this.
I play wormwood, I use Darkswords for everything. If I see an armor, i'll try it if I dont like it, I will stick with Night Armor. No need to argue. If you don't like it, don't use it.
(Example: I detest the Celestial Portal so I just don't ever use it.)

[Dextops]

12 minutes ago, Evelo said:

No need to argue. If you don't like it, don't use it.

that doesn't really fit with this situation because it's a balance issue and a game philosophy error. 

[Evelo]

12 minutes ago, Dextops said:

that doesn't really fit with this situation because it's a balance issue and a game philosophy error. 

Klei has a design in mind when creating their game. I get exhausted by people who critique everything in the minute detail. Take the new sword for example. Klei has introduced a new system in mind with Planar damage. Saying you dont like it is fine but something about how it is a flawed system conceptually really upsets me (example being "game philosophy error"). Balance wise it may be flawed which again is fine to discuss but like with the dreadstone it was worse than thulecite but imo, significantly easier to mass obtain than thulecite which made it balanced. People complained and now it has this auto repair mechanic. That's fine but just didn't see the need for it in the first place.
I think it would be beneficial if Klei explained why they design some things the way they do during the beta to help testers understand what direction they are going with that piece of content.

[Dextops]

2 minutes ago, Evelo said:

Klei has a design in mind when creating their game. I get exhausted by people who critique everything in the minute detail. Take the new sword for example. Klei has introduced a new system in mind with Planar damage. Saying you dont like it is fine but something about how it is a flawed system conceptually really upsets me (example being "game philosophy error"). Balance wise it may be flawed which again is fine to discuss but like with the dreadstone it was worse than thulecite but imo, significantly easier to mass obtain than thulecite which made it balanced. People complained and now it has this auto repair mechanic. That's fine but just didn't see the need for it in the first place.

i said game philosophy issue because klei seems to value fun over balance with characters which i agree with, but when it comes to items they seem to think nothing can ever be better than ruins loot even if it requires more effort (or you need to go to the ruins to actually get it like dreadstone which makes dreadstone a lot worse in my eyes, and thank god they addded the regen mechanic). Planar damage sounds kinda cool but to have them be underwhelming in 99% of scenarios and have one situation where they're slightly above average isnt good in my opinion and it's like you kill CC to get a problem and once you kill that problem you get the solution to the problem. The gear is so pathetically mid that despite it needing to have cc and crab king killed as well as the entire archives puzzle done it's nowhere near as good as ruins loot which you can get day 3 if you want to. Almost all of it is in need of a massive buff. We had to kill a late boss to unlock it and what we get is a massive nuisance on our bases and lackluster loot??

[abrocator]

More could be done with weapons other than damage upgrades and what has already been implemented. You could implement weapons with debuffs:

• Stun/Stunlock enemy for longer
• “Confuse” effect: make the enemy target someone from its own alignment
• Make target groggy/sleepy
• Area of effect melee with long windup
• Knockdown effect like bramblebusk/nightmare werepig

[Evelo]

1 minute ago, Dextops said:

i said game philosophy issue because klei ... snip

Yea I can see that. It would be really nice to see Klei's design philosophy for certain things explained from their perspective instead of the player interpretation of it.

[Mike23Ua]

Sounds like people want the “Combat Update”

[Antynomity]

54 minutes ago, Dextops said:

sniptops

This, why are thulecite armour pieces better than brightshade ones? When you can get thulecite before the first winter unlike with even just killing CC?

[JosePapp]

5 hours ago, abrocator said:

More could be done with weapons other than damage upgrades and what has already been implemented. You could implement weapons with debuffs:

• Stun/Stunlock enemy for longer
• “Confuse” effect: make the enemy target someone from its own alignment
• Make target groggy/sleepy
• Area of effect melee with long windup
• Knockdown effect like bramblebusk/nightmare werepig

These sound super fun! You should make a thread

[Vinja]

I agree to an extent. I want new weapons/armor but not just cheap reskins of items we already have +some incredibly minor “perk” to attempt to justify its existence. I also don’t like the planar damage mechanic either. I think it’s super lame. What a cheap way of trying to get players to use the new weapon. How about making it actually good? Then people will use it. 
 

I absolutely agree we need the things that you listed, and if Klei isn’t gonna make good gear then just quit doing it, we have so much gear that’s never used as is we don’t need more.

6 hours ago, Evelo said:

Klei has a design in mind when creating their game. I get exhausted by people who critique everything in the minute detail. Take the new sword for example. Klei has introduced a new system in mind with Planar damage. Saying you dont like it is fine but something about how it is a flawed system conceptually really upsets me (example being "game philosophy error"). Balance wise it may be flawed which again is fine to discuss but like with the dreadstone it was worse than thulecite but imo, significantly easier to mass obtain than thulecite which made it balanced. People complained and now it has this auto repair mechanic. That's fine but just didn't see the need for it in the first place.
I think it would be beneficial if Klei explained why they design some things the way they do during the beta to help testers understand what direction they are going with that piece of content.

Dreadstone is absolutely not easier to mass produce than thulecite unless you’re talking about a very long term world in which you’re incapable of killing FW and run out of green gems and use all of your thulecite and thus can’t obtain any more which is an oddly specific scenario.

Thulecite is much easier to amass.

[Evelo]

23 minutes ago, Vinja said:

Dreadstone is absolutely not easier to mass produce than thulecite unless you’re talking about a very long term world in which you’re incapable of killing FW and run out of green gems and use all of your thulecite and thus can’t obtain any more which is an oddly specific scenario.

Thulecite is much easier to amass.

I wrote out a whole list of why I disagree but honestly...

11 hours ago, BezKa said:

I'm tired of endless arguments about weapons and armor.

You are entitled to your opinion. I am entitled to mine. Period.

[Mysterious box]

6 hours ago, Dextops said:

i said game philosophy issue because klei seems to value fun over balance with characters

I don't know about that they seem pretty heavy handed on balance on some characters over others I think it's more so they had different mindsets as the refreshes were going that being said I feel like the issue is early game items are too strong because if every post celestial item we get has to be on par with ruins gear I feel like things will get out of hand quick but I do agree we could use more impactful celestial gear.

[Dextops]

4 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

early game items are too strong

honestly wouldn't mind seeing small nerfs to some things if it means they can go more wild with lategame content

[Evelo]

Oh here is a crazy (and highly disliked, myself included) suggestion.
have pre-and post AFW ruins. Thulecite gear and houndius is post AFW, everything else is pre

[Vinja]

12 hours ago, Evelo said:

Oh here is a crazy (and highly disliked, myself included) suggestion.
have pre-and post AFW ruins. Thulecite gear and houndius is post AFW, everything else is pre

Quoting your other message wasn’t working right so this is the wrong message here but can where did you list your reasons for dreadstone being easier? If you don’t wanna talk about it anymore that’s cool I just wanna see your reasonings for why it’s easier, maybe I’m just looking at it wrong.

[Evelo]

2 hours ago, Vinja said:

Quoting your other message wasn’t working right so this is the wrong message here but can where did you list your reasons for dreadstone being easier? If you don’t wanna talk about it anymore that’s cool I just wanna see your reasonings for why it’s easier, maybe I’m just looking at it wrong.

Spoiler

Assuming you do not use a cheese method of killing AFW (ie Lureplant + Houndius,) items required to defeat AFW as Base Wilson (No Celestial Portal usage) are roughly as follows:
Weather Pain x3-4, Glass Cutter x2-3, Lazy Explorer x2, Nightmare Amulet, Copious amounts of sanity food, typically stored in Bundling Wrap but not necessary. Armor of some kind x2-4 depending on HP values of the armor.
The type of armor varies between person to person but commonly used items are: Thulecite Chest, Bee Queen Crown, Thulecite Crown.
As shown here The player is required to wait until Spring for Weather Pains and are meant to farm as much as possible during the one season (or more if they are in no rush) for acquiring enough weather pains to deal with the woven shadows. Optionally the player can defeat Bee Queen (more resources and time) to acquire the Crown and Bundling Wrap. This means players who wish to fight AFW as Wilson are required to wait for Spring to defeat high HP "bosses", Acquire 2 walking canes from winter, defeat the Shadow Pieces for the Atrium, and harvest a significant amount of sanity food to deal with the insanity aura.

Compared to the Nightmare Werepig using no cheese strategies as Base Wilson (No Celestial Portal usage) are roughly as follows:
Darksword x2, Movement speed boost of 20% or more x1, a few sanity restoration foods or a Nightmare Amulet, Armor x1-2 depending on armor value, Pick/Axe to start the fight.
In this example there are no seasonal requirements, and the resource cost for fighting the boss first time is significantly smaller (which makes sense considering it is a very mid gamey boss). The movement speed boost can be acquired via the Magiluminence, the player can opt for a Thulecite Clubx1 over Darkswordx2 if more movement speed is desired. Considering Magiluminescence (i still have no idea how to spell this item), can be refuled using nightmare fuel and is a 1x craft, the player can equip minimal armor such as 2-4 football helmets, or nothing at all considering damage is 100% avoidable on this fight (though that is brave and I wouldn't suggest it) This means the player can acquire all of the dreadstone and Pure Horror requiring only 1 trip to Ruins for a Magnillumiosity x1 and a Pick/Axe x1. Eventually you will run out of Pick/Axe usage which will require more thulecite (x1 per craft if you deconstruct at 2/134 durability) as well as each Pick/Axe usage to spawn the boss requiring 3 charges out of the 134 this allows each Pick/Axe to be used to fight the boss 44 times before needing to be re-constructed. Sanity restoration is interchangable with a Nightmare amulet as players are required to be insane to destroy the parasites after which they can remain sane for the rest of the fight.

Conclusion: Yes, Thulecite is over all better than Dreadstone armor, however for first time killing without utilizing cheese strategies (subsequent killings are slightly easier for AFW after obtaining the Thurible) it is significantly more resource intensive as well as time gated behind seasons (mostly Spring), compared to that of the Nightmare Werepig.

Disclaimer: I only play solo, my experience with multiplayer is extremely small so I cannot comment on the validity and resource intensity of a coordinated team. I suspect fighting AFW with more than 1 person is dramatically easier than alone due to responsibilities of the fight being split between individuals rather than haphazardly alone. Maybe it all comes down to "skill issue" in which case sure possibly, but I hold steadfast in my belief that resource preparation and consumption is dramatically higher than that of the Nightmare Werepig.

 

[abrocator]

16 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

I don't know about that they seem pretty heavy handed on balance on some characters over others I think it's more so they had different mindsets as the refreshes were going that being said I feel like the issue is early game items are too strong because if every post celestial item we get has to be on par with ruins gear I feel like things will get out of hand quick but I do agree we could use more impactful celestial gear.

This post needs punctuation balance.

[Vinja]

1 hour ago, Evelo said:

  Hide contents

Assuming you do not use a cheese method of killing AFW (ie Lureplant + Houndius,) items required to defeat AFW as Base Wilson (No Celestial Portal usage) are roughly as follows:
Weather Pain x3-4, Glass Cutter x2-3, Lazy Explorer x2, Nightmare Amulet, Copious amounts of sanity food, typically stored in Bundling Wrap but not necessary. Armor of some kind x2-4 depending on HP values of the armor.
The type of armor varies between person to person but commonly used items are: Thulecite Chest, Bee Queen Crown, Thulecite Crown.
As shown here The player is required to wait until Spring for Weather Pains and are meant to farm as much as possible during the one season (or more if they are in no rush) for acquiring enough weather pains to deal with the woven shadows. Optionally the player can defeat Bee Queen (more resources and time) to acquire the Crown and Bundling Wrap. This means players who wish to fight AFW as Wilson are required to wait for Spring to defeat high HP "bosses", Acquire 2 walking canes from winter, defeat the Shadow Pieces for the Atrium, and harvest a significant amount of sanity food to deal with the insanity aura.

Compared to the Nightmare Werepig using no cheese strategies as Base Wilson (No Celestial Portal usage) are roughly as follows:
Darksword x2, Movement speed boost of 20% or more x1, a few sanity restoration foods or a Nightmare Amulet, Armor x1-2 depending on armor value, Pick/Axe to start the fight.
In this example there are no seasonal requirements, and the resource cost for fighting the boss first time is significantly smaller (which makes sense considering it is a very mid gamey boss). The movement speed boost can be acquired via the Magiluminence, the player can opt for a Thulecite Clubx1 over Darkswordx2 if more movement speed is desired. Considering Magiluminescence (i still have no idea how to spell this item), can be refuled using nightmare fuel and is a 1x craft, the player can equip minimal armor such as 2-4 football helmets, or nothing at all considering damage is 100% avoidable on this fight (though that is brave and I wouldn't suggest it) This means the player can acquire all of the dreadstone and Pure Horror requiring only 1 trip to Ruins for a Magnillumiosity x1 and a Pick/Axe x1. Eventually you will run out of Pick/Axe usage which will require more thulecite (x1 per craft if you deconstruct at 2/134 durability) as well as each Pick/Axe usage to spawn the boss requiring 3 charges out of the 134 this allows each Pick/Axe to be used to fight the boss 44 times before needing to be re-constructed. Sanity restoration is interchangable with a Nightmare amulet as players are required to be insane to destroy the parasites after which they can remain sane for the rest of the fight.

Conclusion: Yes, Thulecite is over all better than Dreadstone armor, however for first time killing without utilizing cheese strategies (subsequent killings are slightly easier for AFW after obtaining the Thurible) it is significantly more resource intensive as well as time gated behind seasons (mostly Spring), compared to that of the Nightmare Werepig.

Disclaimer: I only play solo, my experience with multiplayer is extremely small so I cannot comment on the validity and resource intensity of a coordinated team. I suspect fighting AFW with more than 1 person is dramatically easier than alone due to responsibilities of the fight being split between individuals rather than haphazardly alone. Maybe it all comes down to "skill issue" in which case sure possibly, but I hold steadfast in my belief that resource preparation and consumption is dramatically higher than that of the Nightmare Werepig.

 

Thank you, definitely a perspective on the dreadstone that I hadn’t considered. I think you make an okay argument and I’ll leave it at that. Have you used the dreadstone much then? I really haven’t a lot, people say it’s good for farming nightmare creatures and some various day to day stuff.