Transmute Gems I (1 Red = 1 Blue < > 1 Blue = 1 Red).

[Cruvimaster]

Dear Klei,

Blue and red gems should have the same transformation value.

Wilson should also choose which gem he wants (Red or Blue). That would make him truly special.

It makes no sense to require 3 Blue gems for 1 Purple gem (1 Purple gem  = 1 Blue + 1 Red).

 

[Mr Giggio]

Yup

I agree 100%

[Yuuko]

Too free.  Look at meats.  1 large meat => 2 small meats, 3 small meats => 1 large meat.  There has to be some loss in the translation.  3:1 might be too much, but 1:1 is absurdly cheap.

Also not every craft has to be useful.  Some can be flavorful and that's okay.  For red, blue, and purple these perks are mostly flavor.  The gems themselves are plentiful and 1 red + 1 blue = a purple no matter who you are.  Wilson doesn't need to compete or beat this in any way.  Its only when you're swapping purple and orange orange up to yellow or green that you're actually doing something.  These can't be 2:1 either because at that tier you just wear a construction amulet and 1:1 them up which is way too good.  I think 3:1 is a great spot.

[dzzydzzy]

if you can transmute red to blue 1:1 and vice versa, theres little point in having a transmutation of 2:1 for purple or anything greater. Not saying i disagree, just noting the redundancy

 

[Theukon-dos]

5 hours ago, Shosuko said:

Too free.  Look at meats.  1 large meat => 2 small meats, 3 small meats => 1 large meat.  There has to be some loss in the translation.  3:1 might be too much, but 1:1 is absurdly cheap.

Agreed. 2:1 should be good though.

5 hours ago, Shosuko said:

Also not every craft has to be useful.  Some can be flavorful and that's okay.  For red, blue, and purple these perks are mostly flavor.  The gems themselves are plentiful and 1 red + 1 blue = a purple no matter who you are.  Wilson doesn't need to compete or beat this in any way.  Its only when you're swapping purple and orange orange up to yellow or green that you're actually doing something. 

Yeah, flavor perks can be good. Except that this flavor perk tastes bad. Actually- No. I take that back. This isn't even a flavor Perk. A Flavor Perk is something like Walter getting sanity from trees, or Woodie getting more time when befriending mobs. There's nothing about early-stage gem transformation that's flavorful at all. Unless you count "consistancy" as a flavor. It's just poorly thought out. And yeah, red, blue, and purple gems are common. But I can still think of plenty of situations where I've wanted just one more red or blue gem while having excess of the other.

5 hours ago, Shosuko said:

These can't be 2:1 either because at that tier you just wear a construction amulet and 1:1 them up which is way too good.  I think 3:1 is a great spot.

Question. How is spending a whole green gem too transmute 5 red/blue gems too good? That's about a 90% loss on gems that nobody would ever use.  

[Yuuko]

8 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

Yeah, flavor perks can be good. Except that this flavor perk tastes bad. Actually- No. I take that back. This isn't even a flavor Perk. A Flavor Perk is something like Walter getting sanity from trees, or Woodie getting more time when befriending mobs. There's nothing about early-stage gem transformation that's flavorful at all. Unless you count "consistancy" as a flavor. It's just poorly thought out. And yeah, red, blue, and purple gems are common. But I can still think of plenty of situations where I've wanted just one more red or blue gem while having excess of the other.

Question. How is spending a whole green gem too transmute 5 red/blue gems too good? That's about a 90% loss on gems that nobody would ever use.  

I think it's flavorful as a representation of alchemy which is all about transmuting one element into another.  Certainly some should be useful, but there is room to have something quirky and situationally useful.  You give a good example of having excess of red/blue but wanting the other or possibly to upgrade to a purple.  In this situation trading 3 red <=> 3 blue might be good but normally you'd just build up an abundance of them both over time via hound waves, cave ins, etc.  It doesn't have to take over by being a very efficient power that becomes a primary source of higher tier gems, it can be simply sometimes useful early game.

As for the construction amulet, if you can get unlimited blue and red gems which are already 1+1=1 for purple, use a construction amulet (1 green gem) to transmute 3 purple at 1:1 to orange, yellow, green, then you're going to get infinite of all colors of gems.

[Mike23Ua]

Hear me out on this: but wouldn’t the simplest fix for this problem be to allow Wilson to craft the Red Gems with some other type of resources besides actually needing a red gem?

This would make the 3 red = 1 blue make sense IF he could craft Reds from something like 1 Nitre, 1 Gold, 1 Flint, 1 Charcoal.

what’s that saying again? squeeze coal into diamonds or something like that..

[DimaH20]

42 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Hear me out on this: but wouldn’t the simplest fix for this problem be to allow Wilson to craft the Red Gems with some other type of resources besides actually needing a red gem?

This would make the 3 red = 1 blue make sense IF he could craft Reds from something like 1 Nitre, 1 Gold, 1 Flint, 1 Charcoal.

what’s that saying again? squeeze coal into diamonds or something like that..

it's a good idea but we just need to work on the balance

[Fill-Lips]

I remember reading a suggestion in another thread that the transmutation should be 3:2, I like this suggestion a lot compared to whats currently in place and whats currently being suggested.

[Master_NiX]

11 minutes ago, Fill-Lips said:

I remember reading a suggestion in another thread that the transmutation should be 3:2, I like this suggestion a lot compared to whats currently in place and whats currently being suggested.

If you mean this suggestion then it was 2:1 originally replacing the purple gem with Blue to Red. Paying additional gem to get what's needed. But as someone said in the topic, 3:1 is stil fine. There's no point for Blue to Purple.

[Cloakingsumo198]

Make the cheap gems 1:1 and then gradually increase the price or something.

Hell if the construction amulet is part of the problem make it so it can't apply to alchemy conversions.

I don't really think Wilson being able to make ruins gem is much of an issue cause I don't think ruins gear takes that long to accumulate anyways because of all the durability.

[Theukon-dos]

4 hours ago, Shosuko said:

I think it's flavorful as a representation of alchemy which is all about transmuting one element into another.  Certainly some should be useful, but there is room to have something quirky and situationally useful.  You give a good example of having excess of red/blue but wanting the other or possibly to upgrade to a purple.  In this situation trading 3 red <=> 3 blue might be good but normally you'd just build up an abundance of them both over time via hound waves, cave ins, etc.  It doesn't have to take over by being a very efficient power that becomes a primary source of higher tier gems, it can be simply sometimes useful early game.

Ok. So if those gems are already super easy to get, then why can't the transmute recipe be cheaper? As I said earlier, flavor perks don't matter when the flavor given tastes bad. 

4 hours ago, Shosuko said:

As for the construction amulet, if you can get unlimited blue and red gems which are already 1+1=1 for purple, use a construction amulet (1 green gem) to transmute 3 purple at 1:1 to orange, yellow, green, then you're going to get infinite of all colors of gems.

The constuction amulet rounds up when dealing with recipes that have an odd number of items, so it's definitely not a 1:1 transmutation with upgrading. A net positive, maybe. But definitely not infinite. 

[Yuuko]

3 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

Ok. So if those gems are already super easy to get, then why can't the transmute recipe be cheaper? As I said earlier, flavor perks don't matter when the flavor given tastes bad. 

The constuction amulet rounds up when dealing with recipes that have an odd number of items, so it's definitely not a 1:1 transmutation with upgrading. A net positive, maybe. But definitely not infinite. 

Getting them is easy over time.  Alchemy works as a less efficient fix that is available early game when you wouldn't have stockpiles of gems.  It has its place where its good, it doesn't need to compete with late game gem production and become the best way to use gems.

The construction amulet example is about the 2:1 transmutation costs.  If we set a 2:1 transmutation then construction amulet makes it 1:1, there is no rounding.  1:1 would let you make 3 purple gems into 3 green gems.  With red and blue being easy to stockpile this makes all gem types essentially free.

[Mike23Ua]

50 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Getting all gem types essentially free.

As someone who heavily Side-Mained Winona a lot, I don’t see any problem with getting Gems for FREE, leaving the Wilson rework behind for a second: Winona is very Obviously a character designed and intended to be played best with extended periods of time down inside caves (she has spotlights and GEM-er-rators FFS..) And I feel like ALL Gem Colors should be able to fall during Cave earthquakes, and after Klei created the Garden Digamajig I kinda want Winona to get some sort of Gem/Oil extractor device that works with similar animations.

I also feel like player created earthquakes (the ones caused by explosions) or Antlion rage quakes should be powerful enough to cause said gems (exception to the rainbow colored egg..) to rain from the heavens.

Yes it sort of completely devalues fighting bosses like Dragonfly for Gems, but so did the Beefalo Bell for taming Beefalo, The reduced costs of marble armor for getting 2x as much armor as you use to, allowing cobblestone turfs to be crafted easily, or Mushgnomes & Living Logs, Or giving Wendy an AoE mob blender and ignoring her lower damage downside, you get the idea…

In short: IF & When Klei gets around to a Caves Rework, Wilson’s Transmutation ability may end up being just “Faster access to” something you can get with time & patience later on in the game anyway.

Just like his Beard Storage is useful up until you get bundling wraps, or Wes’s Speedy Balloon is only useful up until he gets a Walking Cane, Or Woby is just a early access Chester/Beefalo.

In particular the Red Gem may become more common to obtain, for all we know- Klei could be adding a forge/shipwrecked inspired volcanic biome where red hounds are plentiful.. 

I just wanted to throw it out there that as someone who’s played ALOT of Winona.. Gems, and Gem Siphoning Machines (which ironically power her other machines) should be her “Thing”

[Theukon-dos]

4 hours ago, Shosuko said:

The construction amulet example is about the 2:1 transmutation costs.  If we set a 2:1 transmutation then construction amulet makes it 1:1, there is no rounding.  1:1 would let you make 3 purple gems into 3 green gems.  With red and blue being easy to stockpile this makes all gem types essentially free.

...You do realize that 2:1 would only be for Red and Blue gems, right? Nobody's said anything about making the ruin gems transmutation 2:1. 

[Yuuko]

2 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

...You do realize that 2:1 would only be for Red and Blue gems, right? Nobody's said anything about making the ruin gems transmutation 2:1. 

I did, in my original response.  You replied quoting that exact portion.

On 3/4/2023 at 1:30 PM, Shosuko said:

Its only when you're swapping purple and orange orange up to yellow or green that you're actually doing something.  These can't be 2:1 either because at that tier you just wear a construction amulet and 1:1 them up which is way too good.  I think 3:1 is a great spot.

 

[Yuuko]

On 3/5/2023 at 4:24 PM, Theukon-dos said:

...You do realize that 2:1 would only be for Red and Blue gems, right? Nobody's said anything about making the ruin gems transmutation 2:1. 

AAAAAND first page on the latest update where red and blue gems were fixed to a 2:1 ratio either way, "higher tier gems 2:1 too?" which is exactly why I clarified why I think they should stay 3:1 in a topic about "only red and blue gems."

But anyway lol

Nothing against you, I think we both agree - just this is exactly the reason I was keen to mention the costs of higher tier gems even when this thread wasn't really about them.

[Cheggf]

1 hour ago, Shosuko said:

AAAAAND first page on the latest update where red and blue gems were fixed to a 2:1 ratio either way, "higher tier gems 2:1 too?" which is exactly why I clarified why I think they should stay 3:1 in a topic about "only red and blue gems."

But anyway lol

Nothing against you, I think we both agree - just this is exactly the reason I was keen to mention the costs of higher tier gems even when this thread wasn't really about them.

Wilson should make a YouTube video titled "Gem duplication glitch 2023 not patched" and have the ratio be 2:3.

[cybers2001]

On 3/5/2023 at 3:12 AM, Master_NiX said:

If you mean this suggestion then it was 2:1 originally replacing the purple gem with Blue to Red. Paying additional gem to get what's needed. But as someone said in the topic, 3:1 is stil fine. There's no point for Blue to Purple.

3 blue -> 1 purple is really not that bad, though. If the alternative is 1 blue + 1 red -> 1 purple, then all you're doing is swapping 1 red for 2 blues, which is already more cost effective than Wilson's other transmutations.