Since klei just fixed the bee queen boat cheese, do you think they should tackle the other ones?

[xDarkSoul18x]

Exploits and unintended mechanics should be fixed. Plain and simple. We shouldn't be telling them not to fix or improve things just because it benefits us while taking away the authenticity of the game, an uncompromising survival game (imo). You can kite deerclops or you can just tank it by a fire. Both are legit ways that don't exploit any mechanics out of their intention. One could argue just tanking by a fire is "cheese" but its still valid. People would get the guardian stuck on graveyards. That's not "cheese" thats just an exploit. Same thing with beequeen, same thing with toadstool and lureplants. If people want to use them fine, but they should still be fixed. They actually made the guardian fight interesting when they fixed him. Thats what I want to see and that is good game design!

If it bothers you that much just use a mod or something. Just seems kind of weird seeing people use the "its a sandbox". Ok then just use a kill command and just kill the beequeen since if you exploit the fight and just stand on a boat you're pretty much guaranteed a kill anyways. There are plenty of clever ways to kill things but bugs and exploits should still be fixed in my opinion because then people who want to do the fight as intended instead get casted out for not wanting to glitch or exploit. 

[Gashzer]

14 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

and the best part is the people who is complaining about cheese being in the game are cheesers

Followers arnt cheese tho? So what isnt cheese according to the experts? Im complaining about exploiting bugs, and all bugs should be fixed. And if the boss (bee queen) needs a bug as a fun option to kill her then the fight needs reworked like ancient guardian.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

3 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

And if the boss (bee queen) needs a bug as a fun option to kill her then the fight needs reworked like ancient guardian.

i enjoy fighting her legit but i see why people hate that fight, has room, with bugs or without, for improvements. Same for toad, both fights are really simple, more variety of atacks, which also would make them required more skill, will be very welcome

[Gashzer]

Just now, ArubaroBeefalo said:

i enjoy fighting her legit but i see why people hate that fight, has room, with bugs or without, for improvements. Same for toad, both fights are really simple, more variety of atacks, which also would make them required more skill, will be very welcome

What is legit tho? You said followers are cheese i.e not legit... so wurt and webber do not have legit character perks? 

[Gi-Go]

17 minutes ago, xDarkSoul18x said:

There are plenty of clever ways to kill things but bugs and exploits should still be fixed in my opinion because then people who want to do the fight as intended instead get casted out for not wanting to glitch or exploit. 

Invalid reason. I never used boat method. So am i casted out now? I don't even know what that means and don't care either. 

[NoodlemanNed]

4 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Im complaining about exploiting bugs, and all bugs should be fixed.

What defines an exploit/bug is just as subjective as people defining what a cheese method is. Lots of people ive spoken to will say abusing ai pathfinding with lureplants is cheese even though klei purposefully left that mechanic in the game when they changed the placement hitbox of lureplants. If they ever decide to patch this then it would kind of proove my point about it being subjective since whether or not something can be called a bug is based on not only the current devs working for klei, but also what opinion they hold on any specific day.

I will admit i dont know much about the inner workings of the company but im fairly sure many of the people working on DS nearly a decade ago dont work on dst today, so there are bound to be lots of formerly intended mechanics being called bugs today.

 

11 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

And if the boss (bee queen) needs a bug as a fun option to kill her then the fight needs reworked like ancient guardian.

In order to leave a "fun bug option" in the game the only thing klei needs to do is ignore it. Patching things require time from the devs in order to make half the playerbase upset and risk making the fight worse in some unexpected way (bee queen fly into the ocean now so fighting her without cheese is miserable if you get unlucky worldgen)

Reworking a boss on the other hand, that requires quite a lot more effort. Not only do you need to come up with a unique new direction for the boss, but you need to reprogram the boss ai, and since this is about bee queen there are also the grumble bees to consider (which wickerbottom can summon so her book needs to be kept in mind aswell). And depending on how you want to rework the boss you may even need new assets as well which adds on to all the different factors you would need.

So overall it would be far easier to simply let players have fun with whatever method they like fighting with, if you need to patch certain things for a rework to work, then it would make sense to do so within the update that has the rework. Not much reason to pave the road for a boss rework that might have not even been started yet.

[HowlVoid]

7 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

What is legit tho? You said followers are cheese i.e not legit... so wurt and webber do not have legit character perks? 

What I'm not understanding is the logic that cheese means something isn't legit? Cheese means it trivializes a fight, none-legit would be to give yourself God mode or something. I think there should be a clear distinction. 

This whole forum was up in arms when Wolfgang was "nerfed" that the people against the nerf didn't have their "cheese" character anymore. So was Wolfgang not a legit character then by this logic?

I find the forum picks and chooses definitions to fit their narrative... I think we can agree that exploits aside, some characters have any easier time than others. And having a cheesy character is perfectly fine. 

Ease of difficult may equal cheese, but cheese does not mean something isn't a valid strategy.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

27 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

What is legit tho? You said followers are cheese i.e not legit... so wurt and webber do not have legit character perks? 

are intended but cheesy.

Are catapults an exploit? no, they are a feature but you can even kill bosses without touching them with your character

is ranged damage an exploit? no, but enemies cant reach you

are followers an exploit? no, but same 

etc

etc

etc

Is okey that you defend fixing the game but you are atacking people's skill while defending easy methods and even describing yourself as a better player because you can trivialize a fight using mobs as distraction while you atack from a safe distance

0 sense

[HowlVoid]

1 hour ago, xDarkSoul18x said:

Exploits and unintended mechanics should be fixed. Plain and simple. We shouldn't be telling them not to fix or improve things just because it benefits us while taking away the authenticity of the game, an uncompromising survival game (imo). You can kite deerclops or you can just tank it by a fire. Both are legit ways that don't exploit any mechanics out of their intention. One could argue just tanking by a fire is "cheese" but its still valid. People would get the guardian stuck on graveyards. That's not "cheese" thats just an exploit. Same thing with beequeen, same thing with toadstool and lureplants. If people want to use them fine, but they should still be fixed. They actually made the guardian fight interesting when they fixed him. Thats what I want to see and that is good game design!

If it bothers you that much just use a mod or something. Just seems kind of weird seeing people use the "its a sandbox". Ok then just use a kill command and just kill the beequeen since if you exploit the fight and just stand on a boat you're pretty much guaranteed a kill anyways. There are plenty of clever ways to kill things but bugs and exploits should still be fixed in my opinion because then people who want to do the fight as intended instead get casted out for not wanting to glitch or exploit. 

Perhaps there is some confusion to what the boat method is?

Because, yes, you can very much die to it. It was very risky for any character besides Wendy. Think of it as turning the bee queen fight into a walling yourself in dragonfly fight or walling of the lavae and tanking DF.

Would we equate a walled lavae dragonfly fight the same as killing with console commands?

I wonder if people even know what the boat method is at this point lmao I'm so confused as to why it's compared to killing with console commands. 

As Wormwood fighting on a beefalo is EASIER to me then fighting using the boat because I have to get off to heal the beef. More time consuming, yes, but less resource intensive. Why do some people act like bee queen just stands there and takes it?

Also ps. Wendy still needs enough healing, weapon(s) and armor or she will die.

[SullyD]

2 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

are intended but cheesy.

Are catapults an exploit? no, they are a feature but you can even kill bosses without touching them with your character

is ranged damage an exploit? no, but enemies cant reach you

are followers an exploit? no, but same 

etc

etc

etc

Is okey that you defend fixing the game but you are atacking people's skill while defending easy methods and even describing yourself as a better player because you can trivialize a fight using mobs as distraction while you atack from a safe distance

0 sense

Kill all bosses as Wes with bare hands. Spears? Swords? ham bat? High damage weapons? All this is cheeeeesy then.

Can you see that your argument is not valid now?

2 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

0 sense

literally 99.9% of your posts, sorry buddy.

This topic needs to be locked.

[NoodlemanNed]

17 minutes ago, SullyD said:

Can you see that your argument is not valid now?

i think the implication was that catapults/ranged weapons trivialized the fight, which is why they can be considered cheese. Such logic doesnt apply to using hambats because even with that item youll be putting yourself at risk of everything the boss can throw at you.

the reason that matters is because the only other thing separating an exploit from an easy boss method (such as catapults) is someones opinion on what they think the devs wanted. And if its fine to patch one method of trivializing a boss, why not patch all of them?

 

 

[Dunk Mujunk]

35 minutes ago, SullyD said:

This topic needs to be locked.

No reason to lock the thread, it's remained civil enough. Hopefully it remains that way.

[Mike23Ua]

I think every valid method to kill something should NOT be patched (in other words.. using the weapons, tools, and build able objects the game has available to you to use) this means that giving enemies Gunpowder resistance was a bad patch that Nerfed using a valid tactic.

Meanwhile- Getting a boss stuck unable to step across or walk around his own Krampus sack was an Exploit.

Walling off Larvae is a Valid Tactic, but.. them being too dumb to swim through the same lava ponds they came out of is an exploit.

Theres really no point in arguing out the issue any further.

[Cloakingsumo198]

So should we change the problem from "cheesing" to "exploiting"?

I don't really see why people are arguing over definitions isn't klei's intention just to remove "exploiting"?

The "cheese" that was removed was because it broke and "exploited" bee queens kiting ai.

Mob/boss farms are "exploiting" the games mechanics but I think most can agree that these types of "exploits" are much more clever then the boat one.

It's not really black and white the area between intentional/broken mechanics is extremely blurry it's really up to the developers.

I don't believe kiting or using mobs who's intention is to deal damage/work as "exploits" that kind of thing is pretty obviously intentional.

[Dunk Mujunk]

28 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Walling off Larvae is a Valid Tactic, but.. them being too dumb to swim through the same lava ponds they came out of is an exploit.

Thing with that one is not everyone uses the single wall method. We build a box towards the middle of the Magma pools or just wall off each individual pool.

Larva not being able to swim through the Magma pools is completely inconsequential. 

[Cloakingsumo198]

13 minutes ago, Dunk Mujunk said:

Thing with that one is not everyone uses the single wall method. We build a box towards the middle of the Magma pools or just wall off each individual pool.

Larva not being able to swim through the Magma pools is completely inconsequential. 

This really irks me cause larvae not being able to swim through the magma is dumb.

But even if they could swim through magma it's just as easy to make a small wall with burnt signs.

To achieve basically the same effect but even if that was fixed the "intentional" way is still just blocking them off with stone walls which while it makes "sense" it's almost redundant.

Since the previous magma and stone walls trick was essentially the same just easier and cheaper even if it was probably "unintentional" by design, unintuitive and way uglier.

 

[Yuuko]

13 minutes ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

So should we change the problem from "cheesing" to "exploiting"?

 

The terms are very loaded, which is part of the problem.  A lot of criticism for things such as using a wall for dfly doesn't come from a genuine concern about the game being broken (kiting dfly even with a wall is still relatively difficult for player who hasn't fought her before,) rather its from ego of "I did it this hard way, everyone who isn't doing it this hard way isn't really earning it."  This ultimately turns into a No True Scotsman fallacy where any victory can be challenged in a race to the bottom.  While the statement was hyperbole, as SullyD said, "kill all bosses as Wes with bare hands" because you can always argue something is making it easier.

That argument is 100% subjective and nonsensical.  I truly hope Klei ignores *any* suggestions following that logic.

There is a good line we can draw though - between what is actual bug / glitch exploitation vs what is a legit interaction according to the code of the game.  For instance playing a pan flute to sleep Dfly is using the coded abilities and interactions of the pan flute and dfly.  It is a lot easier to skip her rage mode but you're not exploiting any glitches or bugs to do it.  Walling lavae uses the wall's coded obstruction properties, which combines with Lavae refusing to change targets resulting in them being trapped by walls easily.  Both are cheese by making the fight significantly easier but neither are bug exploitation.  Compare this to pushing yourself onto the abyss or up on the zaxis which (I hope) is pretty obviously a different case where you're actually exploiting a bug or glitch.

You can't "exploit" something that was designed to work that way, you're just using it.  People can disrespect it, or call it cheese, but that is how the game works.  That is what the game is.  No one is forced to use these strategies if they don't want to.  imo unless there is some glaring issue, these really shouldn't matter.

As for BQueen's pathing - was it a bug?  After discussion here I think not.  She was intentionally programmed to not fly over water because it would lead to unwanted outcomes like despawning over water because you're unable to reengage her.  As a side effect we get to corner her against water to prevent her from backing off, letting us tank and trade the fight a lot quicker.

[Cloakingsumo198]

2 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Philosophy 

I hope the line is drawn by removing bugs and making the best ones become actual mechanics/tools/structures.

I just want the game to make sense and look good.

[Gashzer]

4 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

are intended but cheesy.

Are catapults an exploit? no, they are a feature but you can even kill bosses without touching them with your character

is ranged damage an exploit? no, but enemies cant reach you

are followers an exploit? no, but same 

etc

etc

etc

Is okey that you defend fixing the game but you are atacking people's skill while defending easy methods and even describing yourself as a better player because you can trivialize a fight using mobs as distraction while you atack from a safe distance

0 sense

You make it sound like catapults, ranged combat and followers dont have drawbacks that make them balanced... there is a reason people prefer glitches to catapults or followers and that reason is prep time...

It takes me around 16 catapults to kill bee queen without having to help at all, that is 240 rocks, 16 silk, 48 grass, 48 twigs plus 4 generators and about 20 nitre.

That is a pretty insane amount of resources that can only be used to kill a single boss. (You have to mine 80!!!!!! rock boulders)

Same with ranged combat by itself... it takes Walter 4 ingame days like 30mins to kill bee queen if using just the slingshot alone.. that is so very slow for an "easy" "cheese" method. Not to mention having to crafting alot of thulecite/marble rounds which require ruins rushing or a limited early game resource like marble. Gold rounds alone would take longer than 4 days.......... if planning to kill bee queen first autumn.

Followers, same as catapults, take a huge amount of resources to setup. 

Each of these methods reward the huge amount of time and resource required to utilize them. 

There is nothing cheesy about any of them. Its simply rewarding those that take the time to be prepared which is what survival games like DST are all about.

There is nothing rewarding about abusing bugged out AI pathfinding.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

4 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

This ultimately turns into a No True Scotsman fallacy where any victory can be challenged in a race to the bottom.  While the statement was hyperbole, as SullyD said, "kill all bosses as Wes with bare hands" because you can always argue something is making it easier.

what i like about dst is that gives many tools to deal with dangers, not only 1 way. I pointed that strategies to show how ridiculous is the discussion of "people are noob because are using boats" when a lot of features can make things easier than most exploits. Is silly to undermine others for using certain methods when someone is using or used others, even if hey are intended

the real discussion should be if klei shoulds fix bugs, not just the penis size contests that the threads has become

[Yuuko]

1 minute ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

I hope the line is drawn by removing bugs and making the best ones become actual mechanics/tools/structures.

I just want the game to make sense and look good.

tbh - its virtually impossible to have a game without bugs.  All you can really do is patch egregious issues which are most likely to cause an interference to the players.

I don't think it was a "bug" that bqueen didn't fly over water, but lets pretend it was - The bug does not effect anyone who is fighting her without purposefully putting her on a boat.  It also still requires a player have the resources necessary to tank and trade through the fight, as well as the skill to lure and trap bqueen in this situation.  imo - negative impact is pretty minor (if you ignore butthurt people who can't stand someone doing something differently then they do.)

[Dextops]

2 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

There is nothing rewarding about abusing bugged out AI pathfinding.

except all it achieved was easier tanking. You still had to resource dump a lot, so by your logic getting all the resources for the boat method was the reward. You are still cheesing the boss except they are much more safe and feel more cheesy than the boat method ever did.

[Yuuko]

4 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

You make it sound like catapults, ranged combat and followers dont have drawbacks that make them balanced... there is a reason people prefer glitches to catapults or followers and that reason is prep time...

It takes me around 16 catapults to kill bee queen without having to help at all, that is 240 rocks, 16 silk, 48 grass, 48 twigs plus 4 generators and about 20 nitre.

That is a pretty insane amount of resources that can only be used to kill a single boss. (You have to mine 80!!!!!! rock boulders)

 

That is just comparing the degree of efficiency.  Lets say I spawn in and want to kill a gobbler.  I can swing at it with an axe or a pixaxe.  The pickaxe is going to be much less efficient, does that make it the "real" way?  Is an axe cheese?

The existence of Winona shows us that non-interactive boss setups aren't off the table, so everything in between is just a measure of efficiency against it.  If Winona got buffs enough that her catapults were better than other methods then people would swap to her and people do for where her catapults are useful.  There are a lot of things in this game you can do that are more difficult, or resource intensive while also being less efficient.  tbh that is part of the game is learning which things are better or worse to do.  Just look at crock pot dishes lol like 80%+ of them are absolutely worthless.

[firoborn]

Since always the boat method was only viable for wendy or multiplayer but now good luck doing beequeen with 9 bunny men that are now gonna try to chace her into the ocean and then die to the grumble bees

[ArubaroBeefalo]

1 minute ago, firoborn said:

Since always the boat method was only viable for wendy or multiplayer but now good luck doing beequeen with 9 bunny men that are now gonna try to chace her into the ocean and then die to the grumble bees

that happend to me as maxwell, the shadows pushed BQ in the middle of a "river". Just for the problems that will bring it should be reverted, people who cheesed her lost their cheese and people fighting her without boats will experience BQs despawning cuz nobody can reach her...