Woodie Buff Concepts

[Riddla]

As a prephase, I would like to clarify some things first:

1.) All of the ideas below are separate suggestions, not everything has to be added all at once.
2.) If you see something that you have suggested already before in the past and I did not mention you, please let me know.
3.) A lot of things are pretty much brainstormed, so they're very likely to be unbalanced or plain wrong. Feedback, critique, and your suggestions are always appreciated.

This will also contain poorly drawn pictures to illustrate certain mechanics for convenience.

 

I) Maple Syrup

Original idea belongs to @-Variant She brought up a very creative idea to give Woodie an option to take control over his wereforms. Check it out!

I wanted to try expanding on the idea a little bit for fun. (Sprite from Klei's Gorge, "Syrup").

Maple Syrup
Ingredients: 1 Honey + 1 Birchnut + 1 Ice + 1 Filler

Stats: 12.5 Hunger, 10 Sanity, -5 Health.
Regenerates 20 Sanity total over 1 minute.

Spoilage: 20 days.
Effect: Upon consumption, renders the imbiber immune to Wereform transformation for 8 minutes (1 Day).

It functions exactly like Soothing Tea, restoring 15 less sanity than it and harming the player a bit with sugar overdose. The advantage it has over it is incredibly long spoilage time and ease of accessibility, without having to grow the weeds.

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Alternative option to the way of preventing Transformation:

Awereness Concoction
"Prevents Moonday hangover."
Crafting Recipe
Cost: 2 Maple Syrups, 1 Moon Moth, 2 Monster Meat.
Produces 3 brews.

Provides Immunity to Transformation for 1 Day.
Sanity is either reduced by 50, or set to 20%, whichever results in higher Sanity.

After consumption, for 7 days OR until Woodie's Lunacy (Sanity) reaches 90%, Woodie becomes Immune to Moonstorm Full Moons.

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II) Empowering Idols

Current Idol costs and effects should remain the same. What I wish to suggest is a way to evolve their power as you progress through the game, through specific materials that can be challenging to obtain.

The material can then be combined with an idol to imbue it with a special effect. Crafting costs are up to interpretation.

If the effect includes a Right Click ability, it will consume a tiny bit of Wereform meter, ~5% at worst.
 

1) Down Feather (Moose Goose)
Weremoose - "Charge" now transforms Weremoose into a tornado (similar to Weather Pain). Colliding with a target damages it rapidly three times within a second, then swiftly bounces off the target, homing onto the next target within the radius of two tiles. Maximum of 3 extra targets can be hit per Charge.
Cooldown up to interpretation.

 

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Werebeaver - Right clicking a targeted object/structure from a large distance makes the Werebeaver leap onto it and instantly destroy it.



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Weregoose - Running in the same direction without stopping now accelerates Weregoose's movement speed additionally over time by 10% every 3 seconds, up to 40%.



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2) Desert Stone (Antlion)

Weremoose - "Charge" now instantly teleports Weremoose to the cursor, zapping for 70 Electric damage to everything between Weremoose's starting and ending location. Has a cooldown of 2 seconds.



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Werebeaver - When Werebeaver destroys any object or structure, the items dropping them now teleport to where Woodie has originally transformed. The Weremeter's decay is frozen for 60 seconds or until Werebeaver begins gnawing anything.



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Weregoose - Allows Weregoose to "fly over the map", by choosing the location on the map and right clicking any area (basically Wortox's map soul hop). Consumes Weremeter equal to the distance it would take for Weregoose to run manually.



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3) Jellybeans (Bee Queen)

Weremoose - Slowly regenerates and improves his speed stats depending on current Health percentage. For every 10% HP lost, the following stats are increased:
+0.2 HP/sec, +2% Movement Speed, +3% Attack Speed.
Every time Weremoose swings, his Weremeter is also restored by 0.5 per swing.

 

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Werebeaver - Every time Werebeaver fully gnaws a tree, he recovers his Health, Sanity, and Weremeter by 4.
Each tree chopped also increases his Movement Speed by 1% (up to 40%), and Gnawing Speed by 10% (up to 200%) (Triple).

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4) Scales (Dragonfly)

Weremoose

- Immunity to Fire.
- Instead of taking damage, half of Fire Damage is now converted into Health and Weremeter.
- Half of Fire Damage taken drains Sanity as well.
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5) Nightmare Fuel (more emphasis on risk vs reward?)

Weremoose

- Increases the Damage by 20, up to 79.5
- Taking damage leaks the bonus damage by 2.
- Sanity drain is doubled.
- Being at <25% Sanity regenerates the bonus damage by 1 every 4 seconds.
- At <25% Sanity, the Bonus Damage is increased by additional 10 points, up to 89.5

Werebeaver

- Chopping speed is doubled.
- Hammering and Mining speed is tripled.
- Sanity drain is doubled.
- Every time Werebeaver gnaws something, his health is reduced by 0.2

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6) Living Log

Weremoose

- Grants immunity to being interrupted when taking damage. (Prevents "stunlock")

 

Werebeaver

- No longer prevents Treeguards from spawning.
- The chance to spawn Treeguard is tripled.
- Treeguards are Neutral to the Werebeaver, until the transformation wears off.
- Werebeaver now deals 86 damage to Treeguards instead of 44.2

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7) Shroom Skin (Toadstool)

Weremoose
- Grants immunity to being interrupted when taking damage.
- Damage Reduction is further increased to 95%.
- Taking three hits in a row within second makes Weremoose sneeze large spore cloud around him, blowing away all mobs for a small distance and dealing 60 damage to them.



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Weregoose
- Periodically releases spores when running, which either transform a tree into a Mushtree, or make new mushrooms grow in the ground.



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III) Weregoose Taunt




Weregoose is now more hyperactive and irritating, quacking sporadically in a large radius, which taunts nearby mobs to attack the goose. (Similarly to Wigfrid's "Rude Interlude" song).



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IV) Werebeaver Carrying

 

Werebeaver can now also carry things on his back upon right clicking. Including survivors.
Right clicking a survivor picks them up and puts them on Werebeaver's back. The survivor or Werebeaver can right click on themselves at any time to climb down.
If survivor climbs the Werebeaver up during Night, the survivor falls asleep, providing with immunity to Charlie and granting stat regeneration equal to Tent.

Werebeaver's Damage Reduction is increased to 80% (Log Suit), and Weremeter decays as if Werebeaver is chopping. If both Werebeaver and Survivor on top get attacked, only Werebeaver takes the damage. The survivor can perform any tool actions as if they're on a Beefalo.


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V) Full Moon Weremoose
(If you're familiar with Forge's "Parry", this works exactly like it)

 

Empowered Weremoose's "Charge" is now replaced with "Grit".
Right Click allows Weremoose to brace himself with fists, taking half of the damage from frontal attacks and being immune to interruption.

When he braces right before taking damage (0.5 second window), he instead takes 25% of the damage and launches a haymaker, deflecting x1.5 of attacker's normal damage.

Every time Weremoose manages to deflect an attack, his Attack Speed increases by 10%, up to 50%.
If Weremoose takes damage when not using Grit, and if Weremoose does not manage to deflect the damage to attacker, the Attack Speed bonus is reset.

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VI) Werebeaver Carrying Items

Werebeaver can now "consume" materials from the ground, depositing into his mouth. (8 inventory slots maximum)
(Credit for this one goes to @Baffoh. Check out the original thread here):

Some extra potential suggestions:

Gnawing objects and structures automatically send the materials there as well. When his transformation ends, Werebeaver spits out all of the materials he collected onto the ground, stacked.

Werebeaver gnawing Structures, both intact and burnt, now gives all the materials back rather than only half. Werebeaver can also gnaw low-tier refined materials, such as Planks, and give back all of the materials it took to make them, similarly to Deconstruction Staff.

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VII) Weregoose Scavenging

Weregoose can now sniff an item on the ground, revealing all of the locations that have such item present. Weregoose can follow a trail scent to get to them.
(The mechanic is very similar to Navigadget from Hamlet DLC)




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VIII) Lucy

- Losing Lucy should inflict Woodie with a heavy sanity drain of 5/min.

- Woodie can decorate Lucy with Garland, gaining a sanity regeneration of 2.66/min (double of Garland).
- At night in front of campfire, Woodie can now sit down and speak to Lucy, providing Woodie with a mild sanity regeneration of 10/min, similarly to Walter's campfire story.


When Woodie transforms with Lucy in his hand and drops her, Woodie can now interact with her.
Woodie in a Wereform can pick her up, and she'll start to calm him down, very rapidly draining his Weremeter as his senses start coming back. (3-7 seconds?)

After Woodie transforms back this way, his Hunger is instead decreased by half of the amount he previously had.
Being in a Wereform for longer than 30 seconds will still fully drain his hunger.

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IX) Werepigs

- Their aggro range is now much lower against Woodie.
- When Woodie is in a wereform, nearby Werepigs in a big range now start following him. They will attack anything that Weremoose or Werebeaver attacks, or when any Wereform takes damage.


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X) Eating

Wereforms should be able to eat food off the ground, playing Bearger eating animation. The Weremeter's decay is frozen temporarily, and the hunger restored from food is divided by half, which converts to the Weremeter.




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XI) Other Various Buffs

1) The Weremeter should decay at a MUCH slower rate at night, and only revert back to normal rate during Day and Dusk.

2) During Full Moon, the Weremeter should freeze entirely, or never speed up decaying.

3) Werebeaver should uproot the stump upon gnawing a tree.

4) Upon transformation, Weremoose should emit a loud roar that Fears nearby mobs for a few seconds.

5) When Woodie transforms back from a Wereform, he should be left with 10 Hunger.

6) When Woodie transforms back from a Weremoose form, his transformation should linger a bit, retaining the 90% damage reduction until he stands up and 1 second after.

7) (Major Buff) Let Woodie wear Amulets while transforming. There are a lot of fun and useful things to use, such as Chilled Amulet with Weremoose, or Lazy Forager with Weregoose.


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XII) Downsides

When at <20% Sanity, performing actions now gradually fills his Weremeter in human form. At 100 points, he transforms into a Werecreature. The action that accumulates the most points will result in respective transformation:

Chopping, Mining, Hammering: 1 Swing - 1 Point (Werebeaver)
Fighting, Taking Damage: 1 Hit / 2 Health - 1 Point (Weremoose)
Running, Standing: 4 seconds - 1 Point (Weregoose)

[Dragonboooorn]

I didnt know Woodie mains existed

good concepts tho

[MadMatt]

All these ideas are interesting, and although there is something to be said for having all these variations on idols, it rubs me the wrong way. Woodie is already in a very good position and just suffers from tweaks needed to make using the wereforms easier and less punishing.

Things that stuck out to me as neat however is the full moon stopping decay rate, Moose roar, Amulets, and extending armor reduction during the transformation animation. Having that animation play for so long and then the enemy hits you before you can move is so annoying!

EDIT: As for suggestions to add on since I forgor to, I really REALLY want the wereforms to not suffer from the piggyback penalty. Since I like to make use of the Goose to explore ocean content, I never make the piggyback until I've already found and brought everything back with me like on Lunar and Moon Quay. I want incentive to use it early on, but the extra space afforded doesn't make up for the lost efficiency when using the Goose or any of the wereforms really  

[ShadowDuelist]

Great ideas! The only ones I don't like as much are the jellybeans ones, since I believe actually eating the jellybean before transforming would be better than the boosts described. They should definitely be tuned up to be "at least just as good or potentially better" than eating the jellybean.

Also Woodie should have a way to de-transform during full moon, he can't be locked in a transformation (unless you choose to)
But overall, being able to improve the wereforms with materials for new effects sounds a lot of fun. The maple idea is very clever too.

[Hyuyu]

woodie tornado in my living room

[Riddla]

56 minutes ago, MadMatt said:

All these ideas are interesting, and although there is something to be said for having all these variations on idols, it rubs me the wrong way. Woodie is already in a very good position and just suffers from tweaks needed to make using the wereforms easier and less punishing.

Things that stuck out to me as neat however is the full moon stopping decay rate, Moose roar, Amulets, and extending armor reduction during the transformation animation. Having that animation play for so long and then the enemy hits you before you can move is so annoying!

EDIT: As for suggestions to add on since I forgor to, I really REALLY want the wereforms to not suffer from the piggyback penalty. Since I like to make use of the Goose to explore ocean content, I never make the piggyback until I've already found and brought everything back with me like on Lunar and Moon Quay. I want incentive to use it early on, but the extra space afforded doesn't make up for the lost efficiency when using the Goose or any of the wereforms really  

Thank you!

I did have a faint feeling that the idol variants are TOO much, I wanted to combine the craziness behind Woodie with Forge's mechanics, since they're so captivating and make players strategize with the extra tools in combat. Especially after eyeballing the Maxwell rework's extra mechanics, I got excited to write a lot of wacky stuff. But I fully understand why it rubs the wrong way. I appreciate the feedback!
 

47 minutes ago, ShadowDuelist said:

Great ideas! The only ones I don't like as much are the jellybeans ones, since I believe actually eating the jellybean before transforming would be better than the boosts described. They should definitely be tuned up to be "at least just as good or potentially better" than eating the jellybean.

Also Woodie should have a way to de-transform during full moon, he can't be locked in a transformation (unless you choose to)
But overall, being able to improve the wereforms with materials for new effects sounds a lot of fun. The maple idea is very clever too.

Funnily enough I thought they'd be actually too powerful, since standard Jellybeans regenerate 2 hp per 2 seconds, while Moose's regeneration reaches that point at around 60% HP. Looking at Beaver and Goose's boosts again though, I do start to realize that the cost is too big and redundant for such benefits at such stage of the game.
The idea I wanted to pull off with Jelly + Beaver is more of a luxury that lets him infinitely keep chopping stuff, since the Weremeter refills every time you chop.

As for the Full Moon, I am not entirely sure about the best way to prematurely let Woodie end the transformation, because at the same time, the Weremeter decay is very brutal when you're unable to act for specific reasons (e.g. Weremoose having to run from a boss during combat). Still conflicted about whether he should be given some sort of Silver Amulet for that, or nah. Thank you for your feedback!

[maeslay]

I really love the little sketches you made for the  idol concepts they are adorable

 

also those are pretty good suggestions! Moose parry would be pretty awesome

[WunderWafe]

Awesome ideas, and excellent job with the proof of concept art!

[MadMatt]

6 hours ago, Riddla said:

As for the Full Moon, I am not entirely sure about the best way to prematurely let Woodie end the transformation, because at the same time, the Weremeter decay is very brutal when you're unable to act for specific reasons (e.g. Weremoose having to run from a boss during combat). Still conflicted about whether he should be given some sort of Silver Amulet for that, or nah.

I've always thought the forms should be able to activate that sort of premature detransformation if they do something related to their job. Like Beaver eating wood and Moose charging into things too many times. (Although for me it's more about cutting down on time wasted idling just to detransform rather than the full moon)

Klei no amulet tho plz i beg 

[W0l0l0]

These ideas are really good. I personally don't like the idea of upgrading the forms because it feels arbitrary and unrealistic, however these improvements seem really interesting. I never played Gorge or Forge, I definitely regret that.

Do you mind if I use some of these ideas for my Woodie mod? The idea of harvested items teleporting with beaver has a lot of potential! If it could be controlled with a structure or something it could allow harvesting items in awkward places to appear right where they're used, saving the effort of carrying them all back. I really struggled to find ways to make Goose and Beaver unique but you've really got something to work with here.

Personally I'm not a fan of the Syrup. It completely negates the downside of Woodie with very little cost. I don't know what the best way to do it is though.

[Starlogy]

I love how you even created images to represent all of your ideas! I really like this idea of being able to make Woodie stronger by using various tools from the world, it's very cool.

[Iino]

Love how you referenced that Wendy quote regarding the werebeaver, and the ideas are awesome. I am personally super hyped for the desert stone concept, should make fighting much more intersting.

[Riddla]

43 minutes ago, W0l0l0 said:

Do you mind if I use some of these ideas for my Woodie mod? The idea of harvested items teleporting with beaver has a lot of potential! If it could be controlled with a structure or something it could allow harvesting items in awkward places to appear right where they're used, saving the effort of carrying them all back. I really struggled to find ways to make Goose and Beaver unique but you've really got something to work with here.

Of course, feel free to use them!

[skile]

great ideas.

out of transformation upgrades, I liked the moose/goose feather one, having Moose turn into a tornado sounds crazy, but fun.

[Riddla]

Updated the main post with some adjustments:

- Added an alternative recipe for Transformation prevention
(2 maple syrups, 1 lunar moth, 2 monster meat for 3 bottles)

- Buffed Weremoose + Jellybeans combo
Slight nerf to regeneration, but added bonus Movement and Attack Speed depending on health.
(Now at 50% HP, the moose's restoration is equal to Jellybeans standard regeneration)

- Buffed Werebeaver + Jellybeans combo
Restoration no longer depends on Tree stage.
Stat bonuses increased to 4/4/4.
Also now increases his Movement Speed by 1% per tree, up to 40%.
Increases Gnawing Speed by 10% per tree, up to 200% (Triple).

- Weregoose Taunt no longer costs Jellybeans, is now a separate suggestion.

- Buffed Weremoose + Scales combo
Now converts 50% of Fire Damage taken into Health + Weremeter.
Drains sanity equal to 50% of Fire Damage as well.

- Buffed Weremoose + Nightmare Fuel combo
Regenerates Bonus Damage by 1 every 4 seconds at <25% Sanity.
Increases Bonus Damage by additional 10 points, up to 89.5 maximum, if Weremoose is at <25% Sanity.

- Buffed Werebeaver + Living Log combo
Now increases Werebeaver's damage to 86 from 44.2 against Treeguards.
(Note that his 25% Damage Reduction remains the same. So it comes down to either choosing this form to be a glass cannon, or transforming into Weremoose for far more defense in exchange for damage)

- Can now interact with dropped Lucy to make his Wereform start very rapidly draining.

- Added a downside to Woodie.
When at <20% Sanity, performing actions now gradually fills his Weremeter in human form. At 100 points, he transforms into a Werecreature. The action that accumulates the most points will result in respective transformation:
Chopping, Mining, Hammering: 1 Swing - 1 Point (Werebeaver)
Fighting, Taking Damage: 1 Hit / 2 Health - 1 Point (Weremoose)
Running, Standing: 4 seconds - 1 Point (Weregoose)

As always, feedback is appreciated!

[MadMatt]

2 hours ago, Riddla said:

- Added a downside to Woodie.
When at <20% Sanity, performing actions now gradually fills his Weremeter in human form. At 100 points, he transforms into a Werecreature. The action that accumulates the most points will result in respective transformation:
Chopping, Mining, Hammering: 1 Swing - 1 Point (Werebeaver)
Fighting, Taking Damage: 1 Hit / 2 Health - 1 Point (Weremoose)
Running, Standing: 4 seconds - 1 Point (Weregoose)

I really like this idea but feel it'd need something to counteract a vicious cycle of constantly transforming because low sanity -> wereform -> lower sanity.
Woodie should be able to eat wood and wood related items to lower all three weremeters so you can stay insane but avoid a nasty transformation if you actually do your job as a lumberjack. Also would finally make the references of Woodie eating logs a reality in-game

[Riddla]

3 hours ago, MadMatt said:

I really like this idea but feel it'd need something to counteract a vicious cycle of constantly transforming because low sanity -> wereform -> lower sanity.
Woodie should be able to eat wood and wood related items to lower all three weremeters so you can stay insane but avoid a nasty transformation if you actually do your job as a lumberjack. Also would finally make the references of Woodie eating logs a reality in-game

I can't believe I actually forgot about adding log eating mechanic for Woodie, lmao
I am pretty conflicted about letting wood lower the weremeters, since logs are very common and abundant thanks to his indestructible axe. I was thinking of making his downside inflict severe consequences for having low sanity because of Woodie's nutty and unpredictable nature. I might toy around with numbers a bit more so that there's enough time for Woodie players to think of finding ways to restore sanity before they transform.

I was thinking of letting him eat the logs and make them restore 12.5 hunger and 5 sanity at the cost of 10 health, however his Weremeter will actually increase in Werebeaver category, say by 20-25 perhaps, or maybe it should be a random chance starting from 2 logs.
Eating logs could be his way of calming down his nerves, but the beast within him is tested and tempted. Unsuspecting player is very likely to keep eating them for cheap restoration, but they actually fall for it and let that beast within out.
The issue with this idea though is that it will make Werebeaver Idol completely pointless to make. /shrug

Also thank you, I actually got reminded about his hatred towards birds. I wonder if killing them should restore 5 sanity, just because (though this is probably too much, it's just a silly quirk of his)

[MadMatt]

35 minutes ago, Riddla said:

I was thinking of letting him eat the logs and make them restore 12.5 hunger and 5 sanity at the cost of 10 health, however his Weremeter will actually increase in Werebeaver category, say by 20-25 perhaps, or maybe it should be a random chance starting from 2 logs.
Eating logs could be his way of calming down his nerves, but the beast within him is tested and tempted. Unsuspecting player is very likely to keep eating them for cheap restoration, but they actually fall for it and let that beast within out.
The issue with this idea though is that it will make Werebeaver Idol completely pointless to make. /shrug

Not only that but would facilitate using the ability over and over again, allowing Woodie to easily replenish atleast 2 of the three stats by eating logs alone. Eat some logs, transform, cut trees, detransform, repeat. Since logs also give hunger you wouldn't need to eat real food between transformations anyways, so at the end of it you'd only have at worse 0 hunger from the ordeal and full sanity and health if you repeat the cycle enough times.

 

39 minutes ago, Riddla said:

I am pretty conflicted about letting wood lower the weremeters, since logs are very common and abundant thanks to his indestructible axe. I was thinking of making his downside inflict severe consequences for having low sanity because of Woodie's nutty and unpredictable nature. I might toy around with numbers a bit more so that there's enough time for Woodie players to think of finding ways to restore sanity before they transform.

The wereforms already present enough of a downside for having low sanity I'd say. I'm not taking into account any other changes, looking at purely this one as a thought experiment, but being able to stave off the weremeter instead of addressing your sanity isn't a free play even with how abundant logs are. You're essentially choosing to maintain your human form and forgo your wereforms for however long you gnaw on logs, and if you choose not to eat logs then you'll be taking the risk of enemies hitting you with zero protection while you transform. This encourages Woodie to get his sanity back up in order to use the wereforms safely while not forcing him to constantly be regaining sanity to avoid transformations. 

[Riddla]

33 minutes ago, MadMatt said:

Not only that but would facilitate using the ability over and over again, allowing Woodie to easily replenish atleast 2 of the three stats by eating logs alone. Eat some logs, transform, cut trees, detransform, repeat. Since logs also give hunger you wouldn't need to eat real food between transformations anyways, so at the end of it you'd only have at worse 0 hunger from the ordeal and full sanity and health if you repeat the cycle enough times.

 

The wereforms already present enough of a downside for having low sanity I'd say. I'm not taking into account any other changes, looking at purely this one as a thought experiment, but being able to stave off the weremeter instead of addressing your sanity isn't a free play even with how abundant logs are. You're essentially choosing to maintain your human form and forgo your wereforms for however long you gnaw on logs, and if you choose not to eat logs then you'll be taking the risk of enemies hitting you with zero protection while you transform. This encourages Woodie to get his sanity back up in order to use the wereforms safely while not forcing him to constantly be regaining sanity to avoid transformations. 

Crap, I didn't take weremeter delaying starving into account, my bad. Looking this over again and you're making good points, the logs should then only recover a fraction amount of weremeter so that he is forced to make sacrifices to delay the transformation.



(i must feel ashamed that i've overlooked three of Woodie's quirks in a row today, despite liking him so much)

[JaxckLl]

I really don't like any of the boss item suggestions. They seem needlessly complex and don't really capture the heart of what makes Woodie interesting. Additionally a couple of them are just plain off the mark, especially the Living Logs one. Woodie's problems at the moment can be summarized in three parts,

• Sanity management is hell with this character while doing his preferred basic task (chopping trees), and it's only made worse by the Halloween event. It's stupid because Woodie is both the best chopper and the worst, effectively requiring the use of his Beaver form and negating the value of Lucy. Lucy is a perk for about the first 30seconds of the game before you find flint.
• There's no way to switch forms since Woodie cannot eat while transformed. This locks him into one mode at a time, massively decreasing the value of the Weregoose form in particular. There's no way to play Woodie at a high skill level, sacrificing HP to micromanage his forms to better complete fights. Woodie has the unpleasant anti-synergy while playing Goose for example of needing to flap around while just standing still in order to switch to Beaver, which massively cuts its utility as a travel tool between resource sites.
• Woodie cannot collect Glommer's Flower nor complete the Lunar events properly. This is frankly insane, considering how much of the more recent content Woodie is locked out of. Going to sea is likewise suicide for Woodie without a partner, especially when using sails.

Woodie does not need a major overhaul. Each of his forms & perks are interesting & useful, they are just mixed together in an unfun & often anti-synergistic way. Instead he needs some quality of life features that gives the player more control over his transforms, opening them up as part of his regular gameplan instead of a periodic interruption.

• Woodie should gain a token amount of sanity from chopping trees. Perhaps limit this to fully grown trees if it's too much sanity gen.
• Woodie should lose sanity if he hasn't chopped trees in a while. Woodie should be expected to try and chop a tree at least once every other day. The sanity drain should accelerate the longer Woodie has gone without chopping, before eventually plateauing at a relatively high drain rate. Using more than one type of transform in a one day period should also incur a sanity debt that gets paid out when Woodie eventually untransforms.
• Woodie should be able to eat while transformed (this is the part of your post I most agree with, and it's one I've suggested before). This includes his transform items, allowing him to swap form/refresh his Were metre on the fly at the cost of HP. This would also allow a well-supplied Woodie to stay effectively permanently transformed, alternating between eating totems and eating healing food. Kind of like how Wolfgang can stay permanently mighty if prepped properly.
• Werebeaver & Weremoose should be able to swim. Moose are actually amazing swimmers and will cross gaps of up to 50 miles between islands & headlands. This would basically completely remove the risks of sailing for Woodie and open him up as a really solid Lunar Island rush character.
• Woodie needs a fourth totem that prevents his transformations, being worn as an Amulet. The amulet activates at dusk on a full moon, lighting up in inventory to warn the player of the impending transform. If the player chooses to equip it, then the totem prevents the transform before breaking at dawn. A more permanent equipable version of this amulet can be made from Moon Rocks in the Celestial Tab. This amulet also prevents the slowdown effect from being hit by gestalts, making it a useful item for other characters too. I prefer this to your suggestion of simply making it a food, since it creates a very real cost for Woodie to avoid his regular transforms as he can't use a backpack, carry anything heavy, or wear armour while the moon is full. It also means he can flash transform for free in a pinch by unequiping the item.
• I do like your suggestion for buffing the Weremoose with some additional attacks. I would also add that the Weremoose should gain weremetre when attacked, allowing Woodie to stay in an entire boss fight without needing to retransform. It absolutely sucks when you miss one charge, hit a tree, get stun locked then barbequed by Klaus's deer, losing your transform and dying with Klaus on 500 HP. Make the Moose play like Wolfgang's mightiness, only with tanking instead of dealing damage.
• The Beaver is near perfect right now, it's only issue is it is tied to playing Woodie. I do not believe it needs any buffs specifically, especially not carrying. It's good that characters have pros & cons, and it seems silly to add an ability to Woodie that would make him even more like Wolfgang. The swallowing & stacking thing is also weird & unnecessary. Tidying up is a part of the balance of bigger farming methods versus smaller as-needed resource production.
• I really don't like the Lucy suggestions. Lucy is already kind of a trap, last thing I want is to also be down yet another inventory slot. If I were to change Lucy in any way, it would be to buff it as a specialist weapon against Treeguard's & other plant mobs. Giving it a Moon-Glass upgrade, Glucy, makes sense as well, since Glass Axes are one of the core attractions for going to the Lunar Island. It's strange that Woodie is both the most capable of reaching the Lunar Island yet benefits the least from getting there.
• Amulets with wereforms seems reasonable, and is a much more balanced & interesting solution to tidying up after Beaver for example. This honestly wouldn't be much of a buff either; literally every other character can wear amulets while using their core abilities.
• Taking Woodie back to his pre-rework days by having a constant Were metre is the last thing anyone wants.

[MadMatt]

17 minutes ago, Riddla said:

(i must feel ashamed that i've overlooked three of Woodie's quirks in a row today, despite liking him so much)

It's okay, we don't love Woodie with our brains, we love Woodie with our hearts <3

 

Quote

the logs should then only recover a fraction amount of weremeter so that he is forced to make sacrifices to delay the transformation.

Yis, something like 5 weremeter for each log seems like the magic number for me, so keeping it down is an ordeal but not too oppressive since you can store a large amount indefinitely. Maybe also add twigs for 3 less, and boards for 15. It gives one option that is almost always on your person for when you're in a pinch and another for when resources are less valuable than inventory space and time. It'd take away from his gathering side a bit but honestly that's not his main selling point anymore :P

[MadMatt]

49 minutes ago, JaxckLl said:

• Woodie should gain a token amount of sanity from chopping trees. Perhaps limit this to fully grown trees if it's too much sanity gen.
• Woodie should lose sanity if he hasn't chopped trees in a while.

I disagree with tying Woodie's sanity to chopping trees since Woodie is already a very intensive character for sanity and trees aren't something you can just bring with you. This makes doing anything in the caves a pain since your sanity will be constantly draining unless you stick to the grass biome. It limits his options because he suffers more from lower sanity since transformations with terrors running around are exponentially more dangerous to him than with other characters.
 

49 minutes ago, JaxckLl said:

Woodie should be able to eat while transformed (this is the part of your post I most agree with, and it's one I've suggested before). This includes his transform items, allowing him to swap form/refresh his Were metre on the fly at the cost of HP. This would also allow a well-supplied Woodie to stay effectively permanently transformed, alternating between eating totems and eating healing food.

Personally not a fan since I like the dichotomy of Woodie and the Wereforms being more like two characters rather than just a state Woodie enters whenever he's doing X, but I understand the appeal of it. It'd make Woodie cracked as hell essentially never having to worry about armor or weapons or light. Though that's perhaps a bit too strong then.

 

49 minutes ago, JaxckLl said:

Werebeaver & Weremoose should be able to swim.

Unless the weremeter drain doesn't escalate while doing so this can't work. You'd spend about 30 seconds in the water as the Moose and then drown. Also he's already a really good lunar island rusher, since the main downside of the wereforms (sanity) are reversed on Lunar and not only does the Goose get ya there and out fast but Beaver is FANTASTIC for clearing glass and rocks. Only Moose is lacking a role for Lunar i'd say.

 

49 minutes ago, JaxckLl said:

Woodie needs a fourth totem that prevents his transformations, being worn as an Amulet.

No please one of the quotes says little can be done on a full moon. I really don't want the looming threat of the full moon to be trivialized, both in-game and for lore reasons.

 

49 minutes ago, JaxckLl said:

I do like your suggestion for buffing the Weremoose with some additional attacks. I would also add that the Weremoose should gain weremetre when attacked, allowing Woodie to stay in an entire boss fight without needing to retransform.

For solo this is a neat idea to encourage tanking and make certain boss fights actually feasible, but it seems broken if you are with either a Wigfrid or Wortox. Moose is already a beast with these two characters, allowing Moose to maintain his form indefinitely so long as Wig maintains Heartrending Ballad or Wortox has souls would be a busted combo.
 

49 minutes ago, JaxckLl said:

The Beaver is near perfect right now, it's only issue is it is tied to playing Woodie. I do not believe it needs any buffs specifically, especially not carrying.

I've always been surprised by this opinion being so widespread, the Beaver is perhaps the WORST form by far. Beaver fights with Woodie himself when it comes to gathering logs since they both have traits to do that, but the Beaver has so many drawbacks on top of the uniform ones like sanity and health loss. He has horrendously bad armor and damage, even against tree enemies, is ONLY good for spawning logs and cannot be used for the more valuable living logs, and occupies a role that is already touted as useless because of Bearger and Deerclops. His best service is as a clearing tool to set up for spider farming with Moose, otherwise everything he gives is undermined massively by not just Woodie himself but natural aspects of the game and other characters.
 

49 minutes ago, JaxckLl said:

I really don't like the Lucy suggestions. Lucy is already kind of a trap, last thing I want is to also be down yet another inventory slot. If I were to change Lucy in any way, it would be to buff it as a specialist weapon against Treeguard's & other plant mobs. Giving it a Moon-Glass upgrade, Glucy, makes sense as well, since Glass Axes are one of the core attractions for going to the Lunar Island. It's strange that Woodie is both the most capable of reaching the Lunar Island yet benefits the least from getting there.

Don't touch Lucy >:( 
Also give the specialist weapon buff to Beaver since it's already built into his mechanics. Beaver doesn't need another thing to contend with Woodie over. 
 

49 minutes ago, JaxckLl said:

Amulets with wereforms seems reasonable, and is a much more balanced & interesting solution to tidying up after Beaver for example. This honestly wouldn't be much of a buff either; literally every other character can wear amulets while using their core abilities.

100%
 

49 minutes ago, JaxckLl said:

Taking Woodie back to his pre-rework days by having a constant Were metre is the last thing anyone wants.

The issue with the weremeter back then was that it was ALWAYS a thing no matter what, and was focused around gathering wood which other characters did better and even mobs overshadowed Woodie for. Now that there are two other options, and Woodie isn't as single minded as he used to be I can see the idea of bringing the constant weremeter back being reasonable. Of course, it's a downside taken with the idea that it isn't the ONLY thing that would be added. The addition of some of these changes would more than make up for the minor headache of having to stay tip-top on sanity, which Woodie usually does anyways to safely use his wereforms.

(Man this is getting long. Sorry to anyone reading this wall!)

[Yuuko]

That is certainly a lot of things...  tbh most of this feels like bloat.  A lot of things being done for the sake of doing them, with little rhyme or reason.  If something is wrong we want to fix it, but most of this is like anime-mod style stuff that really has no place in the game.

I agree with JaxckLl that Woodie suffers from some anti-synergy.  These could be cleaned up and give us an easier time with Woodie, if that's what people want.  From talking with people I don't always hear that "an easier time" with him is desired.  If that's the case we just stop now - no sense in changing things when there isn't even a clear goal.  Assuming we do want some synergy with his kit, a purpose for his transformations and a qol in using them, these are my suggestions.

Human vs beaver form - Beaver form was great when woodie occasionally became the beaver, but since his last rework that gave him the other forms it feels a bit tacked on.  Woodie already cuts trees fast.  Beaver form has the perk of not spawning tree guards, but this is essentially its only perk.  It gains a damage bonus against tree enemies, but you never spawn them so why would that matter?  If you were in human form you would just go to moose for its damage perk instead...  This is one point of anti-synergy we could fix.

Lets clear up the differences between his human and beaver form.  I propose we give Woodie the perk of never spawning tree guards.  This makes a better "normal" state as living logs are a thing you probably want as you progress through the game, and we can give it to Beaver form to spawn more of these making that a tool we can use with purpose as we play.  Then we can also leave the beaver form with its damage bonus against trees as it will encounter them, and even though its damage is less than moose - because beaver actually cuts the trees to spawn the tree guards it rounds out its job.  Conversely we could give spawning and fighting tree guards wholly over to Woodie, giving Lucy a good damage bonus against them...  But considering this is his default state it should be more vanilla imo so I'd rather the change I suggested

Human form is now the standard chopper.  Chopping it already does, but I think he could have an upgrade to Lucy that gives it the glass axe chopping mod and durability.  Once the durability runs out it can revert back to Lucy.  Woodie can just keep glass in his pocket.

Moose and Goose forms - I think these forms are mostly alright as they are BUT we could use a way to change were forms, or extend them.  I think Woodie should be able to access inventory slots that have idols in them while transformed, and he can consume an idol to change forms, or refill his meter on the fly.  A new long pig idols should be added which is a consumable that lets him revert back to human instantly.

[Riddla]

13 hours ago, JaxckLl said:

I really don't like any of the boss item suggestions. They seem needlessly complex and don't really capture the heart of what makes Woodie interesting. Additionally a couple of them are just plain off the mark, especially the Living Logs one.

11 hours ago, Shosuko said:

That is certainly a lot of things...  tbh most of this feels like bloat.  A lot of things being done for the sake of doing them, with little rhyme or reason.  If something is wrong we want to fix it, but most of this is like anime-mod style stuff that really has no place in the game.

Fair enough, I would like to at least explain why I wanted to go in such direction.
Woodie's transformations fall flat as you progress farther into the game. At the beginning, they're extremely fun, powerful, and cheap. As the time goes on however, the reason to use them shrinks further and further, as you gain access to far more useful and efficient equipment you can use, while letting Woodie actually use inventory, instead of being locked out of it.
I wished to try giving Woodie a chance to let his forms also grow with him as he progresses along, let him keep experiencing that fun once again with transformations and discover new stuff he can do as a reward for killing major bosses, rather than consciously thinking every time: "Why would I use moose form, if I already have marble suit and a hambat? And even then, I can actually heal in human form."
I thought letting him evolve his forms through boss materials would fit well - the constant is incredibly strange, and the bosses are bizarre, and so is Woodie with his unpredictable lycanthropy. The bosses are animalistic, and so are his forms, so I thought it'd make at least a bit of sense to make him be able to "use bosses weapons against them" by lightly imitating their attacks and abilities through wereforms.
I might've went far with this though. Too far. Not only have I tried to experiment with such absurdity with bosses, I also really wanted to try making extremely unusual abilities and stat bonuses, which I thought to make very noticeable while multiplying that fun factor behind playing Woodie, so the stat bonuses, the attacks - they are all TOO crazy.

As for the bloat comment, I've stated at the very beginning that these are all separate suggestions. Maybe this suggestion would fit him, maybe the other one won't, and that's fine. My intention was to brainstorm and sort of make a base for each tiny thing that would inspire or give ideas on what Woodie could additionally have.
 

14 hours ago, JaxckLl said:

I really don't like the Lucy suggestions. Lucy is already kind of a trap, last thing I want is to also be down yet another inventory slot. If I were to change Lucy in any way, it would be to buff it as a specialist weapon against Treeguard's & other plant mobs. Giving it a Moon-Glass upgrade, Glucy, makes sense as well, since Glass Axes are one of the core attractions for going to the Lunar Island. It's strange that Woodie is both the most capable of reaching the Lunar Island yet benefits the least from getting there.

Lucy is a pretty finicky topic to tackle, since there's a bit of conflict behind her and Werebeaver, that being chopping overall.
My intention was to emphasize on Woodie's relationship with Lucy more, giving bonuses that deviate from chopping. In my opinion, the chopping bonuses should all go to Werebeaver. Upgrading Lucy with speed will further make Werebeaver utterly pointless to use (treeguards and all), and ignoring Lucy will just make her Lureplant food.

 

11 hours ago, Shosuko said:

Human vs beaver form - Beaver form was great when woodie occasionally became the beaver, but since his last rework that gave him the other forms it feels a bit tacked on.  Woodie already cuts trees fast.  Beaver form has the perk of not spawning tree guards, but this is essentially its only perk.  It gains a damage bonus against tree enemies, but you never spawn them so why would that matter?  If you were in human form you would just go to moose for its damage perk instead...  This is one point of anti-synergy we could fix.

Lets clear up the differences between his human and beaver form.  I propose we give Woodie the perk of never spawning tree guards.  This makes a better "normal" state as living logs are a thing you probably want as you progress through the game, and we can give it to Beaver form to spawn more of these making that a tool we can use with purpose as we play.  Then we can also leave the beaver form with its damage bonus against trees as it will encounter them, and even though its damage is less than moose - because beaver actually cuts the trees to spawn the tree guards it rounds out its job.  Conversely we could give spawning and fighting tree guards wholly over to Woodie, giving Lucy a good damage bonus against them...  But considering this is his default state it should be more vanilla imo so I'd rather the change I suggested

I completely agree with these points, yet only bit miffed about Werebeaver's overall stats. He deals 44.2 damage against Treeguards, which can be OK at least at the beginning, it's Battle Spear damage, but his damage reduction is a meekly 25%. Way too risky. It feels like a lot of people would always want to have a friend besides them that would fight the treeguards for the beaver, considering how dangerous it is for Woodie to fight it while having no access to inventory. Solo, though, will be an issue, especially because Treeguards automatically would aggro on Werebeaver as he chops wood.

Once again - yes, I am very likely to be wrong in any regard, and if so, I appreciate it if you wish to correct me or provide counterarguments. It's overall fun to think of the possibilities we can provide with Woodie.

[JaxckLl]

Everyone keep in mind that the Beaver is the best miner in the game not named Warly. That's what makes it good, not the wood chopping (because yeah, Lucy exists). Especially in super dense fields, such as in the caves, ruins, or lunar island, the Beaver is a godsend. Indestructible pickaxe and faster movement & mining speed? Yes please!

The big downside of transforms is not sanity loss, it's hunger & health loss. There's also the inability to prep oneself for dealing with that hunger/health loss until after Woodie transforms back into a human, which often leaves one scrambling. No other character really has this pattern to them, literally everyone else can eat while partially full or eat while empty. Woodie cannot when transforming. -20 is often a prohibitive amount of damage to retransform, since Woodie has to first eat something to restore hunger, then health (potentially can do both at the same time, but realistically has to do more than one dish either way), and only then can he consider re-transforming. On top of that he likely needs to reequip some armour so he just doesn't auto-die and then there's the risk of low sanity & a stupid ******* terrorbeak. The sequence of actions needed is several times that of literally any other character, and that's all just to maintain a relatively moderate combat or harvesting mode active.

This is why I say Woodie needs to be able to eat while transformed & why he needs better sanity management. It feels great to zip around as a Beaver or a Goose, or go toe to toe with Bearger as a Moose. What does not feel great is the most intense 5 seconds of micro every time you miss a Moose charge or you end up with just slightly too much distance between boulders.