Maxwell's info for the rework

[ShadowDuelist]

The point of this thread is not to suggest how to rework Maxwell (there are a couple for that already), but mostly to let everyone know and analyze what the current Maxwell does right and should probably remain the same (or even be encouraged and improved), and what just does not work. I'm mostly calling for the Maxwell mains out there, specially those that are experienced about some maxwell-only strategies.

I've realized some hidden info is probably worth sharing before important updates, like when they patched the glitch that allowed us to keep moslings all year round, but mostly that it was used to cast rain during summer (and the devs didn't know that was the reason, but they said they were going to add something to cast rain later on). Or that one of the uses of the applied silviculture before rework was to move trees to the dead stage, for faster treeguard summoning. 

I think the main aspects I like about the current Maxwell are:
 

• That he can lock himself in insanity, no matter what, as a way to farm nightmare fuel. Maybe they will give us another way to farm fuel fast, I'm all good if it's replaced with something more intuitive than summoning 2 shadow duelist and a worker, but whatever it is, its important that he keeps something like this given his innate sanity regeneration.
  This "hidden perk" however does not seem to work when affected by enlightment, due to a buggy way the game calculates Maxwell's enlightment when he has a different Max Sanity than default.
• That he can farm and gather while on the safety of a beefalo: Besides Wurt I think he is the only one that can do that, and he does it better than Wurt really, since she has to befriend and command the merms from the ground. Maxwell can summon and do all the work while mounted still, even while you are fighting nightmares or treeguards or any other thing.
• That his sanity regen allows you to do wasteful usage of sanity-related things, as once you recover form insanity, he has an easier time staying sane. Over time I find this better and stronger than Walter's sanity perks, but that's just my opinion on it. 

The Main aspects that are kinda Meh:

• That he has no real connection with the current shadow magic. His sanity regen can "barely" negate some of the sanity damage the dark sword or the night armor has, even when wearing a Tam. TBH I always thought he was going to get the no sanity penalty when using shadow weapons and armor (I even suggested this a long time ago) but Wanda got them first.
• That you can't really save your minions from hound waves, or any other shenanigans that happen, you either despawn them on time or lose the 2 fuel.
• That the Shadow Duelists, don't really have many uses more than niche AI exploits, like killing entities that don't recognize them as threats, like Ewecus or tentapillars. Or the aforementioned locking Maxwell in insanity, which is entirely passive for them (they just don't do anything)

But I'm all open to read and discover if there are things that I am perhaps missing. We all know Maxwell is currently a very outdated character compared to the reworked or new ones, but over time he always remained to be a very interesting character with a HUGE potential, and I hope we get to see him shine in all his glory once more.

[Cheggf]

You can use duelists to help you fight spiders by letting them draw the aggro, but I don't know if you'd classify that as an ai exploit. 

[Copyafriend]

being completely honest i think maxwells current niche (resource gathering) is quite encroached upon. It feels like some characters were given a resource gathering buff as a generic power boost. Wolfgang being a prime example. 
 

But maxwell is still one of the stronger resource gatherers, and he does it in an interesting and unique way. I think resource gathering wise, he’s doing fine, and doesnt need a buff in that direction. I wouldn’t be against it though, i just dont know what he would get. 

 

i think his duelists are basically completely and totally worthless. 75 health is reasonable for a character who can wear basic armor and QUINTUPLE it. It is one of the weakest hostile mobs in the game, only able to beat the weakest swarm enemies in a 1 v 1. Two spiders could kill one of them with only 2 bites each. They need a buff or they should just be removed because of how pointless they are. Honestly i think they should be able to wear armor minimum, but i additionally think they should get a 50% damage reduction, with the same health. Only 150 ehealth with no armor, but it more importantly improves armor durability. Considering you are only able to have a VERY limited amount of them i think its very reasonable and will let them actually have some level of survivability. Basically i want the duelists to be tougher.
 

Now given that i like his current resource gathering ability, and i think his duelists should get a buff. We should discuss what else maxwell should get.

i think maxwell should have some strong synergies with shadow magic. Night armor and darksword not costing sanity would be a good start. But i think it could go further and have them have higher durability when used as maxwell. He could also get more use out of magic amulets and staffs. 
finally it could be interesting if maxwell could make shadow tools with low durability with nothing but a chunk of his sanity. 

I personally dont want him to just become a caster like wickerbottom, but he should have moderate magic synergy. I dont want his identity to change wildly, i just want his abilities to be stronger, and for him to get some more general utility. 

[GelatinousCube]

6 hours ago, ShadowDuelist said:

Or that one of the uses of the applied silviculture before rework was to move trees to the dead stage, for faster treeguard summoning. 

Sorry I know this is super off topic but huh?? Do dead trees have a higher chance of summoning treeguards? Or is it simply because they only take one chop to destroy so its faster that way?

6 hours ago, ShadowDuelist said:

TBH I always thought he was going to get the no sanity penalty when using shadow weapons and armor (I even suggested this a long time ago) but Wanda got them first.

On topic this time! Wanda doesn't deserve or need those perks at all, she has MORE than enough going for her already and once you have her unique weapon set up you don't even really need to use dark swords ever again.

She should completely lose this perk and it should be given to Maxwell instead. 

[ShadowDuelist]

1 hour ago, GelatinousCube said:

Sorry I know this is super off topic but huh?? Do dead trees have a higher chance of summoning treeguards? Or is it simply because they only take one chop to destroy so its faster that way?

Yeah it was a reliable way for wicker to go through an entire forest in a single hit. It was quite easy to repeat and would synergize with Woodie’s enhanced chances. It may not seem much but it rushed the odds for a character without any wood gathering perk, since you were rolling the dice much faster than just chopping. You can still go through a forest faster with bearger of course, but there is a little bit less control on that process and it’s more dangerous to kill bearger if your only point is to get treeguards.
I’m not complaining though, but it is worth mentioning that the perk was there and not many people knew about it.

4 hours ago, Cheggf said:

You can use duelists to help you fight spiders by letting them draw the aggro, but I don't know if you'd classify that as an ai exploit. 

No that’s a fair use, but in my experience they would help marginally and only if you are facing a very small group of spiders. A tier 3 nest in most cases will get them killed (or they won’t take enough aggro off you for their very short lifespan).
It’s not that they don’t do anything, for instance I found them to be a wasteful distraction against mactusk’s hounds for me to kill mactusk without being initially shot at. But they usually die in the process. They are funny enough but I could have made the same thing with a pig or with an ice staff. They are also a good distraction in PVP but as we all know the game should not balance around that.
In terms of damage, if they landed a perfect hit they add about 34 damage (or 68 with both summoned) every 5 Maxwell swings, so even if they were immortal with their current behavior they would add about 20% extra dps when Maxwell is fighting with a dark sword, which is nice but that’s too ideal and they usually die before they pay their investment price.

 In my opinion, they don’t do anything meaningful enough before they are killed and I generally rather investing those 4 fuels into another dark sword, but there may be other uses where they do make a difference that I am unaware of.

[Rylanor]

Maxwell ever since singleplayer DS was created as "experienced player" character. His design is clearly made with such thing in mind - his sanity regen and ability to quickly gather resources help player to ignore annoying things and focus on more interesting magic, while low hp reward player for kiting and preparing for unexpected as well as sanity regen create a unique problem of finding more reliable ways to become insane. DST shifted him a bit in "gatherer" field more because he doesn't really give much to the team, it was fine before Woodie rework as they were mostly equal, but after Maxwell really became outdated. Wurt later did "make others do work" niche far better than Maxwell ever could and I'm not even touching Wolfgang becoming quite good gatherer too, Maxwell was already outplayed. Rework should definitely focus on making him skill-based like Wanda, while refining his clones too. Duelists copying his movement 1 in 1 is perhaps greatest thing to add, as it would make him extremely powerful, but single mistake would mess everything up - retaining his classic design. As for gathering, his main edge always was the fact that he could pick up everything immediately, it would be good if he could command his clones what exactly to chop and mine - while not making Wurt pale in comparison with Merms, it would give Maxwell slightly slower overall speed of gathering, but greater control over it. 

[Francis2000]

Although duelists are very weak, I do summon them when encountering hound waves.

The best they can do is to distract the hounds so that I don't get killed in the first place, but they usually die in the meantime and I still take a lot of damage.

 

A situation I've seen, but now almost no longer happens, is that duelists can disembark with proper guidance and attack Cookie Cutter on the water, causing Cookie Cutter to be knocked back before attacking the boat.

I don't know why this doesn't happen anymore, now duelists seem to be more passive against Cookie Cutter.

[Mr_Vol]

14 hours ago, ShadowDuelist said:

That he can farm and gather while on the safety of a beefalo: Besides Wurt I think he is the only one that can do that, and he does it better than Wurt really, since she has to befriend and command the merms from the ground. Maxwell can summon and do all the work while mounted still, even while you are fighting nightmares or treeguards or any other thing.

Yes!

When I play Maxwell I always get him on a Ornery Beefalo and I'll plant a mass amount of trees, Summoning 4 workers and hold a Dark sword in my hand.

Cause the dark sword drains sanity (please don't remove this) I can spawn nightmare creatures while chopping trees (1 every 10 sec, east to manage). 

In 1 tree farm you have logs, living logs, nightmare fuel and if you farm brich nut trees and kill those tree guards (easily with a weather pain ontop of your beefalo) you could also get alot of brich nuts and man, my beefalo loves it's trailmix (cause of the 120hp to them).

All I want to see is:
● A toggle switch for my workers to turn on and off (maybe the codex could open or closed to show?)
●A buff to the duelist (maybe feeding them nightmare fuel to get a boost and health gain)
●The shovel worker being able to dig up sapling and grass tuffs again. (Maybe only digs up what you have gathered from or inspected?)

If your looking for extra ideas then I would suggest:
●Repair items that use nightmare fuel to craft.
●Start off with tier 1 magic unlocked
●Boost of staff weapons either less durablty lost or for damage (could be a new craft from his book)
●Removing the need to resummon a shadow minions with a tools or spear (should only need the tool or spear on the first summon)
●A way to upgrade or understand the codex better if you have unlocked tier 2 magic to summon better shadows?
●A Shadow to enchant others to gain a Damage and Armor boost for a time.

I feel that the magician of the group that has been studying staffs and amulets for years should have some improved knowledge on the items. I also feel that Maxwell won't know the true power of the codex at the start of the game and  unlocking tier 2 magic and upgrading your codex should make Maxwell better understand the codex to use it more efficiently.

[abrocator]

There are a lot of characters now so they need to come up with something unique. Not just variations on fighting and gathering.

Maybe:

• Fighters that can taunt. Always draws aggro if they have attacked recently
  • Fighters that are mirrors of other characters that draw aggro without dealing damage. Can impersonate Walter (slingshot), Wolfgang, etc.
• Fighters that prioritize non-boss mobs like the Fuelweaver minions
• Using an item to time kiting for minions while you stay out of combat. Can be done from a beefalo. Don’t need to get your hands dirty
• A map item which he can use to send workers to do things like dig up all saplings or chop all trees without him needing to follow them (would need to load areas that are not near the player so could be a technical challenge)
• Use items to somehow make a minigame where you program your minions to do a task: plant these seeds; then water them; then talk to them
• Generate illusionary shadow items that can be used to distract Krampus and pirates
• What about shadow things on the Sea… it’s time we took revenge against the Sea

Don’t know if any of this would be useful.

[lakhnish]

16 hours ago, ShadowDuelist said:

This "hidden perk" however does not seem to work when affected by enlightment, due to a buggy way the game calculates Maxwell's enlightment when he has a different Max Sanity than default.

Fortunately, this was fixed in Wickerbottom's rework, even with 2 duelists + a worker (which is a little weird since he's both insane but has enough sanity for the crown to be on).

I agree with what you wrote.

He has an interesting downside of being at 75 hp but I feel like his perks don't really match that aspect of him.

His title is that he's a Puppet Master, but they are mainly for chill resource gathering of rocks and trees and the niche application of farming fuel with the 2 duelists + worker combo. 

Despite having been on the nightmare throne and the owner of the Codex Umbra, he has less affinity with nightmare fuel than Wanda :/

I hope that he gets a lot more to him, whether it be more puppets. more affinity with nightmare fuel that even Wanda doesn't have and really something else that really changes him.

He has the most fleshed out lore in the game but gameplay wise he's kind of lacking :/

[WebberMain]

Maxwell used to be the "supreme ruler" of the Constant. Even tho he was just a puppet for Their games, he must have learned a thing or two. His knowledge of the Codex must be really profound. All the sleepless nights trying to learn and understand the nature of the shadows. He knows how obelisk operate, he has knowledge on amulets, he knows the history and usage of the nightmare fuel.
"There is no limit to the power of shadows"
And still, he uses all of his aquired knowledge to make puppets? He ruled an entire dimension and all he can do is gather material? Come on, thats peasants work, he can do better. Right know, he is a gatherer, but look, we have other gatherers. So, he should be a caster right? Nope, Wickerbottom takes the cake. What about the shadows? Wanda is the one for that. So, what awaits our favourite magician?

Maxwell should be like the Fuelweaver. He certainly knows the old school way of weaving things from nightmare fuel. He should combine the ancient knowledge with his showmanship. Shadows should bend to his will. Creatures should tremble before him. 

Maxwell should: 

• be able to summon special demonic shadow creatures to do his bidding( appereance wise they look more like the shadow pieces in their later stages)
• buff other survivors with his shadow magic( just like he did with Wolfgang)
• make a shadow projection of himself that he can control remotely(like in the Wickerbottom short)
• give him the ability to cast curses which ensnare, confuse,damage his foes
• remove the shadow sword and give him a special shadow weapon only he can craft and utilize to its full potential
• necromancy( maxwell says that the lifegiving amulet channels the darkest energies, and he wouldn´t shy away from something like that)
• blood magic(magic that sacrifices health for stronger effects)
• lock the power of the Codex behind rituals. Each sacrifice Maxwell provides will unlock more power of the codex at the cost of his max health,hunger, sanity and items. With each sacrifice, the Codex changes in appearance resembling more the nightmare throne as a crafting station than just a book
• for some spells he must be insane and for some he must be completely sane
• his spells grow stronger as the Moon wanes, peaking in the new moon phase

I just want Maxwell to dive into his contact with Them once again and reveal the dark, shadow magic that Them provide

[MA7xGE]

On 8/13/2022 at 3:43 PM, WebberMain said:

Maxwell used to be the "supreme ruler" of the Constant. Even tho he was just a puppet for Their games, he must have learned a thing or two. His knowledge of the Codex must be really profound. All the sleepless nights trying to learn and understand the nature of the shadows. He knows how obelisk operate, he has knowledge on amulets, he knows the history and usage of the nightmare fuel.
"There is no limit to the power of shadows"
And still, he uses all of his aquired knowledge to make puppets? He ruled an entire dimension and all he can do is gather material? Come on, thats peasants work, he can do better. Right know, he is a gatherer, but look, we have other gatherers. So, he should be a caster right? Nope, Wickerbottom takes the cake. What about the shadows? Wanda is the one for that. So, what awaits our favourite magician?

Maxwell should be like the Fuelweaver. He certainly knows the old school way of weaving things from nightmare fuel. He should combine the ancient knowledge with his showmanship. Shadows should bend to his will. Creatures should tremble before him. 

Maxwell should: 

• be able to summon special demonic shadow creatures to do his bidding( appereance wise they look more like the shadow pieces in their later stages)
• buff other survivors with his shadow magic( just like he did with Wolfgang)
• make a shadow projection of himself that he can control remotely(like in the Wickerbottom short)
• give him the ability to cast curses which ensnare, confuse,damage his foes
• remove the shadow sword and give him a special shadow weapon only he can craft and utilize to its full potential
• necromancy( maxwell says that the lifegiving amulet channels the darkest energies, and he wouldn´t shy away from something like that)
• blood magic(magic that sacrifices health for stronger effects)
• lock the power of the Codex behind rituals. Each sacrifice Maxwell provides will unlock more power of the codex at the cost of his max health,hunger, sanity and items. With each sacrifice, the Codex changes in appearance resembling more the nightmare throne as a crafting station than just a book
• for some spells he must be insane and for some he must be completely sane
• his spells grow stronger as the Moon wanes, peaking in the new moon phase

I just want Maxwell to dive into his contact with Them once again and reveal the dark, shadow magic that Them provide

Not gonna lie, you got me excited.