[Suggestion] Make moon book like moon caller's staff

[Copyafriend]

4 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

Which part of the werepig harvest is too strong? The meat which is already abundant regardless of their were status or the pigskin which you start the game with like 70 of? Maybe if you're on a pub with like 5 people who face tank literally every single enemy they see with a football helmet and weak weapon that would be a big boon but I don't think nerfing it because of that silly hypothetical makes sense. 

Which moon glass craft are you worried about? 

Who said anything about nerfing it? I said that it needs to be pushed more into mid-late game. Thats not a nerf thats putting a powerful ability where it should be. A iridescent gem would work and limit availability, but you can always steal it from the archives if you wanted to rush the book. 

and to answer your questions: effectively infinite food armor weapons and healing from werepigs, as often as they respawn, VERY realistically doable on day 1. That level meat of farming blows everything but lategame honey farms out of the water and would solve all problems by providing eay too many resources. 

 and glass cutters are arguably one of the best weapons in the game which you now can have as many stacks of moon glass as you want for it. Which otherwise there were only a few sources, but now you can reset all the pools on the lunar island every night

 

i wouldn’t say its actually OP. Simultaneously, its rediculously cheap. Its basically asking for two pieces of paper and a lump of crap you found on the side of the road for the ability to induce the most powerful early game worldstate. The only reason why you wouldnt want a full moon is if you wanted to fight the shadow pieces

[Cheggf]

36 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

effectively infinite food armor weapons and healing from werepigs,

You are quoting me saying that normal pigs already do that. What are you doing where early game you are short on food and pig skin? If you just hammer the houses you get like 70 skin right off the bat, and that's either enough to last a server until they get thulecite or enough to make a big farm and last a server forever via the farm regardless of Wickerbottom's book. 

38 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

and glass cutters are arguably one of the best weapons in the game which you now can have as many stacks of moon glass as you want for it. Which otherwise there were only a few sources, but now you can reset all the pools on the lunar island every night

Wormwood can give people infinite dark swords from day 1. I'd be glad if this book made people start using glass cutters instead of dark swords and ham bats. 

[Ornge]

I don't see the problem here. You can achieve perma-full moon by summoning the mysterious energy. All wickerbottom does is summon that earlier, at the stage where it doesn't matter because autumn nights are extremely short (at the cost of cycling three books out of a bookshelf). Making the recipe more expensive doesn't change anything unless you somehow make it cost more than assembling the celestial alters at which point the book would become redundant.

I hope they keep it the way it is. Characters having powerful abilities makes the game a lot more interesting imo. Just another reason to have a wickerbottom in the server. 

[hhh2]

9 hours ago, Ornge said:

I don't see the problem here. You can achieve perma-full moon by summoning the mysterious energy. All wickerbottom does is summon that earlier, at the stage where it doesn't matter because autumn nights are extremely short (at the cost of cycling three books out of a bookshelf). Making the recipe more expensive doesn't change anything unless you somehow make it cost more than assembling the celestial alters at which point the book would become redundant.

I hope they keep it the way it is. Characters having powerful abilities makes the game a lot more interesting imo. Just another reason to have a wickerbottom in the server. 

I read all your posts in your voice. All it's missing is a "Hello everyone".

Love your videos

[Copyafriend]

41 minutes ago, Ornge said:

I don't see the problem here. You can achieve perma-full moon by summoning the mysterious energy. All wickerbottom does is summon that earlier, at the stage where it doesn't matter because autumn nights are extremely short (at the cost of cycling three books out of a bookshelf). Making the recipe more expensive doesn't change anything unless you somehow make it cost more than assembling the celestial alters at which point the book would become redundant.

I hope they keep it the way it is. Characters having powerful abilities makes the game a lot more interesting imo. Just another reason to have a wickerbottom in the server. 

I agree that they should have the ability, my problem is that the ability is too accessible for how powerful it is. It only coats two moon rocks for, what is arguably one of wickerbottoms new most powerful books. I dont think its fair to compare a day 1 ability to an endgame worldstate that lets be honest here, a lot of people will never really see outside of on someone elses world

[Noaa]

The crafting cost should be more expensive for thematic, and fun reasons. 

It is interesting when you have to go out of your way to get specific ingredients for the books you want to craft. On Tentacles requires tentacle spots which is not exactly the easiest material to gather. It does make it more rewarding when you do finally get the resources you need for multiple books then. 

Just requiring the iridescent gem, or moon glass shards would make it more of a journey to get the book. And the book is plenty powerful and interesting to use, so I think having effort to acquire it is very useful. 

[Psychic Chicken]

I like the idea of a short-ranged full moon, what if the book gave a small light source around the size of a torch for 8 minutes and transformed pigs and Woodie when they touch that light source? This effect would follow the book, so you could walk around with the book while it's glowing, hand it to someone else, or even drop it on the ground as a stationary light.

I wouldn't worry about Woodie players suffering from this, because Wicker would have to go out of her way and intentionally troll Woodie, and it's not like trolls don't already have the ability to ruin a world in the blink of an eye.

[goatt]

new wickerbottom can spam fish farming and turn them into tiny jerkies for unlimited sanity. It's even independent of kelp.

 

[Parusoid]

On 7/16/2022 at 8:54 PM, Arcwell said:

iridescent gem

this gem is too expensive, better use moongleam or infused moonrock which put it in par with other plentiful resurces that allow to craft many many copies of the book, and also this way acces to the control of the moon would be gained around the same time other players get it thru altars. you cant really craft a lot of books if its ingridient is one of the rarest gems in game

[goatt]

On 7/17/2022 at 8:23 AM, Ornge said:

I don't see the problem here. You can achieve perma-full moon by summoning the mysterious energy. All wickerbottom does is summon that earlier

Perma full moon takes at least (roughly) 8 hours of intensive gaming while lunar book is craftable on day 1. Usually it takes people in a server more than 16 hours to achieve, and it may never happen (mostly in survival servers).

Lunar book technically can achieve perma full moon for free, and in many servers that will never have perma full moon from mysterious energy. The cost of such incredible effect only costs 2 moonrocks. I don't think it's justifiable. Your justification is out of context.

[Ornge]

15 hours ago, goatt said:

 lunar book is craftable on day 1.

Where is this day one stuff coming from? To even make this book you need a bookshelf which requires four boards, 4 papyrus, 4 gold and a feather pencil. Which requires you to find spiders for silk to make a boomerang to kill a crow for a feather. Which btw, crows have a good chance to give you morsel or straight up not spawn depending on rng. 

Then after the bookshelf is made you still need to find moon Rocks which will definitely take you more than 1 day. I did a few test worlds and the moon rock boulders spawn in the most random places in the mosaic. I was walking for most of a  day doing nothing but searching for moonrock just to craft this book. 

But OK,  let's say your just so good at the game that you make it instantly after spawning, so what? 

15 hours ago, goatt said:

The cost of such incredible effect only costs 2 moonrocks. I don't think it's justifiable. Your justification is out of context.

What about the permanent full moon is so powerful? Especially in autumn when nights last 30 seconds in the early game. Are you really going to use 33% durability and 50 sanity to have permanent light for 30 seconds? Really? 

How about were pigs, oh wait they only respawn every four days meaning having a full moon every night isn't worth it. Especially since again, you only have 30 seconds to kill the werepigs before the full moon ends. But let's say you wait until those long winter nights to make the most of this book. Again, werepigs only respawn every four days so having this active for every night doesn't work. Alternatively, you could just use monster meat to create werepigs, which not only drains a lot less sanity since your not standing next to 10 werepigs, but any character can do it so the whole were pig argument is pointless. 

But let's say you wait until winter where the nights are so long that having permanent night vision is pretty good. OK, I will admit this one is a good convenience, however by day 20 there is less than 40 days before the perma full moon can be achieved for any character. So you have 40 days to use this book before it becomes obsolete. 40 days is also generous since it assumes you never enter the caves once during this time making your night vision on the surface pointless because your in the caves. 

You could use this book on the lunar island to make moon glass. But that requires a lot of Nitre, a very limited resource. I mined the whole world of rocks before and I don't think I even got two stacks of Nitre. But ignoring that you could get a considerable amount of moon glass during the day 31 full moon. I don't know why farming moon glass would be necessary every night (if even possible due to how hard it is to renew nitre) when there's plenty of moon ponds to drop bath bombs into in one night. 

You could use this book to activate the moonbase event every night but oh wait you can't even do that every night because you will need a starcaller staff every time you want to activate the event. Which btw costs you 1 yellow gem and a living log assuming you make it with a construction amulet. This means that even if you clear out the WHOLE ruins and get super lucky with yellow gem drops you would only be able to activate this event like 10 times (and I'm being generous with that number) after wasting a considerable amount of living logs just to turn all your powerful winter items into staffs that make you colder. Sure you could kill the fuelweaver to reset the ruins but the fact that you think doing an easy pearl quest, standing still during a moon event, entering the archives (which is one of the least deadly areas in the game imo) and killing a boss which can be cheesed with a few bees would take 140 days makes me think you wouldn't be able to kill fuelweaver that early on in the first place. 

15 hours ago, goatt said:

Usually it takes people in a server more than 16 hours to achieve, and it may never happen (mostly in survival servers).

I don't even know why you brought up that point. It's not the games fault the player is bad at the game. You can easily summon the perma-fullmoon by the end of the first year. Wicker being able to do that earlier at the cost of 50 sanity isn't as much of a big deal as people make it out to be. 

[Capybara007]

and what if a player wants to do shadow pieces, straight up resetting the moon cycle is absurd

[goatt]

@Ornge

1. on lunar book day 1. Ok, my bad, it's not possible solo. But if not day 1, it's possible day 10. You get what I mean. It's much easier than perma-full moon.

 

2.

4 hours ago, Ornge said:

What about the permanent full moon is so powerful? Especially in autumn when nights last 30 seconds in the early game. Are you really going to use 33% durability and 50 sanity to have permanent light for 30 seconds? Really? 

Powerful isn't the right way to look at it. Some things are expensive because they are *extraordinary*. The reason Gucci bags are so expensive is not that they are "powerful" (or high quality), but they are "extraordinary". Full moon is happens once every 20 days, that's extraordinary. The ability to control extraordinary power is also extraordinary. Bee queen crown is very hard to get. But it's honestly not that "powerful". Why is such a "not that powerful" item so expensive to get? Because it's extraordinary. BQ crown doesn't affect everyday life so much, but it does extraordinary things in special scenario.

Power is an important factor in determining cost. But it's not the only factor, there are many other factors.

 

3.

4 hours ago, Ornge said:

20 hours ago, goatt said:

Usually it takes people in a server more than 16 hours to achieve, and it may never happen (mostly in survival servers).

I don't even know why you brought up that point. It's not the games fault the player is bad at the game. You can easily summon the perma-fullmoon by the end of the first year. Wicker being able to do that earlier at the cost of 50 sanity isn't as much of a big deal as people make it out to be. 

I'm upset when people in this community talking about game mechanism only for "good" players (because they are good), and not for average players or noobs. When making policies (promoting/demoting), we don't care about what happens in theory, or what's "supposed" to happen. We collect real data about people's behaviors and adjust policy. I'm telling your my real experience regarding servers but you dismissed it because they are "bad at" the game? Should the game be adjusted solely on your and other expert players' experience?

The reason I brought it up is I firmly believe that real data speaks louder than anyone's own experience. A full moon isn't a big deal for you. But if it's a big deal for most players whose voice isn't heard in this forum, then it's indeed a big deal.

(My data is of low quality)

[Ornge]

On 7/20/2022 at 7:06 PM, goatt said:

Power is an important factor in determining cost.

I have already described why this item isn't as powerful as it's made out to be. But even if it was, let me remind you the game you are trying to balance by implying that everything powerful in this game has a "balanced cost" or one that sounds fair for what it does.
-A character who can deal DOUBLE DAMAGE with 2 sticks and four rocks. Damage as high as this isn't available to other characters.
-A character WHO SPAWNS WITH THE MOST POWERFUL GROUP-DAMAGE MINION WHO HEALS HERSELF. Literally not a thing for other characters.
-25% speed boost before dusk hits OR Free permanent night vision on day 1. You have to enter the ruins to get either of these on a normal character and even then moggles aren't permanent.
-The ability to run across water and skip the boating process entirely with Monster Meat and Seeds.
and that's just four examples

Characters having good items that are sometimes game-breaking for cheap isn't anything new. Why should Wickerbottom get changed because of arbitrary "balance" issues when most of the cast don't get this treatment. It feels so pretentious to even suggest that this game is remotely balanced and that Power is an important factor in determining cost in DST. 

On 7/20/2022 at 7:06 PM, goatt said:

The reason I brought it up is I firmly believe that real data speaks louder than anyone's own experience. A full moon isn't a big deal for you. But if it's a big deal for most players whose voice isn't heard in this forum, then it's indeed a big deal.

What is going to be so overpowered about a full moon to someone who just installed the game? The permanent light for 30 seconds??? I bet if anything full moons would be a nuisance to these players considering a were-pig will likely kill them.
I'm sorry to say this, but it feels like you've ran out of arguments to say so you've grappled onto this point. If this game was changed around the new player experience it would probably be near impossible to die. I have seen first hand the stupidest ways people have died. Someone somehow died to shadow creatures next to me while I had big bernie enabled. If the game was changed to suit that guy I am not sure nightmare creatures would be allowed to deal damage anymore.

All I'm trying to say is that trying to balance a book like this is stupid because you are accomplishing nothing. The new recipe which requires an iridescent gem and moon moths sure sounds fair for it's cost, but it doesn't change a thing. If you really want to get the book, you would be able to craft it in your first Autumn, possibly before day 10. The only thing making it more expensive has changed is lock the book out of the hands of a new player, or those who are not experienced with the new ocean content which imo will make this item see a lot less use.

On 7/20/2022 at 7:06 PM, goatt said:

I'm upset when people in this community talking about game mechanism only for "good" players (because they are good), and not for average players or noobs.

just wanted to point out it's ironic you say this while supporting the new recipe in another thread. You really do care about mechanics for average players and noobs huh

[goatt]

10 hours ago, Ornge said:

On 7/20/2022 at 1:06 PM, goatt said:

Power is an important factor in determining cost.

I have already described why this item isn't as powerful as it's made out to be.

That's not what I mean. I said

On 7/20/2022 at 1:06 PM, goatt said:

Power is an important factor in determining cost. But it's not the only factor, there are many other factors.

In other words, power can not be used as the ultimate factor.

I also said

On 7/20/2022 at 1:06 PM, goatt said:

Powerful isn't the right way to look at it.

I think you have misunderstood my previous comments in a major way. I never tried to portrait full moon as something powerful. I portrait it as extraordinary, like jewelries, not a necessity, or powerful, but extraordinary in its own sense.

I'm saying, lunar book should be niche and expensive like bee queen crown. It shouldn't be balanced according to other light sources as if the book is something ordinary. It should be balanced according to other full moon effect only.

 

And I'm uncomfortable with your language. I think your language is passive aggressive or whatever, i don't know exactly. You can call me inconsistent, or wrong, or ignorant. But do not use "pretentious", "ran out of arguments", "ironic" regarding my arguments or me, because all my arguments are genuine and being tried hard on. Attack my arguments and arguments alone, but do not attack me.

[Ornge]

First off, I apologise for insulting you over a video game discussion.  I got carried away.

16 hours ago, goatt said:

.It shouldn't be balanced according to other light sources as if the book is something ordinary. It should be balanced according to other full moon effect only.

Secondly, while I personally disagree with this logic, I still believe that this is not balanced when compared to the full moon effect. The regular full moons by themselves are enough to support a play-through. The only time you absolutely need to get a full moon is to do the starcaller event which you only have to do one time for the gem. Every other important full moon effect (bar the moon glass regeneration) can be created with normal items. Werepigs with four monster meat, global light with moggles or starcallers when fighting bosses. Even the moon glass regeneration can be done by just summoning the moon alter. 

For this reason, I don't see how an iridescent gem justifies the cost of the book. Yes, it is an extraordinary event that you don't see often, but why should you be forced to delay the activation of the archives by two gems just to craft a mediocre item? I would argue the book that lets you control rain is more extraordinary and yet cheaper. Not all luxurious items need a high cost. 
What do you think about the recipe requiring a moon-shroom instead of an iridescent gem? You can easily go to the archives to collect the gem just as easily as you can go to the biome before it for a mushroom. 

[goatt]

@Ornge The original post has lost much of its value because things have changed. And after mountains of comment exchange, I've found the flaws in my original claim, and the spine of my argument, and I think the original post wasn't well written in clarity.

Because your opinion is quite popular, I would like to re-write my argument to reflect recent changes. It won't be anything new.

 

1. Extraordinary vs powerful (useful). Extraordinary things aren't necessarily powerful or useful.

How useful is a bee queen crown in general? Not so much.

How useful is Enlightened Crown Shards to replace light bulbs in mushlight? Not so much. It's mostly useless also because of abundant star caller staffs.

How useful is a single Houndius Shootius? Most people who beat the entire game never bothered it.

How useful is a Krampus Sack? Most people who beat the entire game can do so without it.

But those things are extraordinary. Extraordinary things are usually rare (like diamond which is constraint by supply to inflate the price). And extraordinary things are psychologically awesome. Some powerful and useful things are also extraordinary, but power and usefulness is irrelevant here. The ability to curse werepigs, light sources, etc, they are usefulness, and irrelevant. They will be relevant if you think they are awesome.

Full moon before this update was rare. It was once every 20 days. The night is 1/12 to 1/3 of the day. So on average it's roughly 1-2% of the all time. Many events that happen during that night also make full moon extraordinary (not useful because a lot of the time we passively watch it unfold and finish).

Does mysterious energy make full moon less extraordinary? It does make full moon less rare. But the fact that it's locked behind mountains of work and quest, also means it's extraordinary. It's the same reason why all difficult boss (subjective to player's level) loots are extraordinary. (For example, the Klaus loot bundles are extraordinary to those who find it challenging, when they are unopened. Napsack is always extraordinary).

In summary, I've listed 3 things related to extraordinary, 1. rarity, 2. boss difficulty, 3. psychologically awesome. Sometimes [2] leads to [3].

 

2. A local full moon was suggested under this particular thread for 3 reasons

 

1. It's a qol for woodie

Woodie needs prep for full moon. The prep involves food prep, hand & head slot swap, scheduling (avoid fighting boss, hound waves), etc. A sudden full moon is not only sometimes deadly, but a large QoL plummet for woodie players. I would further suggest local full moon should not curse woodie at all.

(I didn't mention it because it was a hot topic and it should be obvious. But it seems no one has mentioned it under this thread)

 

2. Moon cycle manipulation

I simply don't like moon cycle to be manipulated. And a local full moon can solve that.

 

3. It won't affect the game much to remove such global effect and replace it with a local one.

As you and many others have demonstrated, a global moggle isn't a big deal, I totally agree. I think its removal won't affect the game at all.

After all, all the full moon effects (except for cursing woodie and light) still remain.

 

(I personally would support the removal of global full moon book entirely. So in other threads, I will choose recipes of higher cost given they make sense thematically)