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[Discussion] Ranged Weapons' Biggest Problem And Suggestion About Fixing Walter


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i enjoy the shotgun idea some people point out, why not make it so walter damage decrease with distance? the closest he is the more damage he deal, that means just like wanda, if he wants maximum DPS he has to be a risk, then just make that slightshot animation smoother because right now it is way too slow to start.

there would be no need for further changes

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8 hours ago, chincer said:

i enjoy the shotgun idea some people point out, why not make it so walter damage decrease with distance? the closest he is the more damage he deal, that means just like wanda, if he wants maximum DPS he has to be a risk, then just make that slightshot animation smoother because right now it is way too slow to start.

there would be no need for further changes

That's already in the game. If you walk up close to an enemy as Walter and hit them with something like a dark sword or ham bat, it does more damage than your slingshot.

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On 5/14/2022 at 3:08 AM, goatt said:

First of all, I think low slingshot speed is a design choice that should not be changed.

The issue you mentioned is solved with temporary stunlock resistance for certain mobs when it happens too often.

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2 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

I'm still hoping kiel takes another look at Walter's slingshot it's such a interesting concept brought down by being mostly useless in combat aside from novelty.

one of my main issues is giving a character a weapon, but making it a tool

you have walter being punish for taking damage by losing sanity, which makes him want to stay away from the monster at all times

then you give him a weapon with the purpose of keeping him away from said monsters but make it so ineffective almost entire because of how slow it is that he really doesnt want to use it.

you give him woby to ride but make it so taming a beefalo is far superior in handling his weaknesses

13 hours ago, Cheggf said:

That's already in the game. If you walk up close to an enemy as Walter and hit them with something like a dark sword or ham bat, it does more damage than your slingshot.

and to top it all off, wanda gets a weapon, custom made that can be recharge and makes her not want to use anything else but that due how effective it is. why give a character a weapon they dont want to use?

 

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3 minutes ago, chincer said:

one of my main issues is giving a character a weapon, but making it a tool

you have walter being punish for taking damage by losing sanity, which makes him want to stay away from the monster at all times

then you give him a weapon with the purpose of keeping him away from said monsters but make it so ineffective almost entire because of how slow it is that he really doesnt want to use it.

you give him woby to ride but make it so taming a beefalo is far superior in handling his weaknesses

and to top it all off, wanda gets a weapon, custom made that can be recharge and makes her not want to use anything else but that due how effective it is. why give a character a weapon they dont want to use?

 

This sums up most people's I've talked to thoughts on the situation even more so when you consider there's no legitimate reason for the alarming clock to exist.

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I believe ranged (in general) needs 3 major changes:

1) Ranged damage should not stunlock enemies. Yep that simple, if it doesn't stunlock enemies they will just come at you, just like at the forge, forcing you to move around.
2) Crafting darts should give (at least) 2 per craft. Darts should stack up to 40 instead of 20.
3) Walter needs these changes .

Spoiler

In a nutshell: faster shooting speed matching mostly a melee weapon, and a RMB attack that has cooldown and deals AOE on hit, or shoots more than one pellet at time to be able to hit multiple enemies with special pellets (scattershot)



 

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18 minutes ago, ShadowDuelist said:

I believe ranged (in general) needs 3 major changes:

1) Ranged damage should not stunlock enemies. Yep that simple, if it doesn't stunlock enemies they will just come at you, just like at the forge, forcing you to move around.
2) Crafting darts should give (at least) 2 per craft. Darts should stack up to 40 instead of 20.
3) Walter needs these changes .

  Reveal hidden contents

In a nutshell: faster shooting speed matching mostly a melee weapon, and a RMB attack that has cooldown and deals AOE on hit, or shoots more than one pellet at time to be able to hit multiple enemies with special pellets (scattershot)



 

thats a good point if walter gets to shoot faster but doesnt stunlock the enemies it will be balance and encourage a shot move shot play style similar to kiting, the slow start is what kills the slingshot, you love walter at first until the first hound wave and you realize you cant even shoot before the hound get to you because the animation is so long, but walter should never be encourage to just stand and press F

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13 hours ago, Bumber64 said:

The issue you mentioned is solved with temporary stunlock resistance for certain mobs when it happens too often.

Of course, most mobs have stun lock cooldown during which they cannot be stun locked. But there are some really easy mobs that don't have such cool down. Some other mobs have long stun animation. Those mobs are for new players to deal with 1v1 to get the basics of the game. Those mobs are intentional designs.

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7 hours ago, chincer said:

and to top it all off, wanda gets a weapon, custom made that can be recharge and makes her not want to use anything else but that due how effective it is. why give a character a weapon they dont want to use?

Maybe they gave Wolfgang, Wes, Woodie, Willow, and Walter weapons they don't want to use very much because they do more than just damage enemies. And Wigfrid replaces her battle spear super fast, why aren't you complaining about that?

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9 hours ago, Cheggf said:

Maybe they gave Wolfgang, Wes, Woodie, Willow, and Walter weapons they don't want to use very much because they do more than just damage enemies. And Wigfrid replaces her battle spear super fast, why aren't you complaining about that?

There spear is a cheap more durable and stronger spear in large groups it still puts in work when better weapons are scarce or the player doesn't feel like maintaining higher tier weapons. I really don't get why your so dead set on keeping Walter's slingshot from being more than something you use because you can rather than being actually useful.

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18 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

There spear is a cheap more durable and stronger spear in large groups it still puts in work when better weapons are scarce or the player doesn't feel like maintaining higher tier weapons. I really don't get why your so dead set on keeping Walter's slingshot from being more than something you use because you can rather than being actually useful.

Preferring a weapon you replace in the first couple days over a tool you use forever perfectly sums up the people who don't like Walter. 

How come Wigfrid is allowed to be suboptimal and lazy but not Walter? Why is her dealing bad damage a useful perk but Walter dealing bad and safe damage in addition to everything else it does useless? 

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19 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

There spear is a cheap more durable and stronger spear in large groups it still puts in work when better weapons are scarce or the player doesn't feel like maintaining higher tier weapons. I really don't get why your so dead set on keeping Walter's slingshot from being more than something you use because you can rather than being actually useful.

As a walter main, walter's slingshot doesn't need to be more. Its a slow and safe way of killing basic mobs and honestly has cool synergies with using walls and followers like bunnymen. You can wall yourself in for a hound wave at base and snipe the hounds from the otherside, cool an safe method.

Walter is the best non-follower specific character for using followers, rocklobsters which he can befriend cheaply with rock pebbles (10x more efficient that every other character) + slingshot means you can destroy ancient fuelweaver without takin any damage or even having to kite, awesome synergy!

Walter with around 10 bunnymen means he can also kill bee queen very easily an fast enough with slingshot, hes even the best character for usin one man band cause no sanity drain. Yes slingshot is slow by itself by its not designed for solo use, its designed to support other players or follower mobs in combat and its great at that job!

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2 hours ago, Gashzer said:

Walter with around 10 bunnymen means he can also kill bee queen very easily an fast enough with slingshot

Just 10? Fast ? with slingshot?

Heh... X Doubt

I would love to see that.

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5 hours ago, Cheggf said:

Preferring a weapon you replace in the first couple days over a tool you use forever perfectly sums up the people who don't like Walter. 

How come Wigfrid is allowed to be suboptimal and lazy but not Walter? Why is her dealing bad damage a useful perk but Walter dealing bad and safe damage in addition to everything else it does useless? 

Yea it's no dark sword or club but a battle spear isn't bad damage don't see why it's a crime for the slingshot to be good tho that being said there are safer combat options that actually output much better damage and don't require a whole bunch of downsides tied to mediocre weapon. Can you honestly say every aspect of the slingshot is useful and there is zero issues with it's current state?

5 hours ago, Gashzer said:

As a walter main, walter's slingshot doesn't need to be more. Its a slow and safe way of killing basic mobs and honestly has cool synergies with using walls and followers like bunnymen. You can wall yourself in for a hound wave at base and snipe the hounds from the otherside, cool an safe method.

Walter is the best non-follower specific character for using followers, rocklobsters which he can befriend cheaply with rock pebbles (10x more efficient that every other character) + slingshot means you can destroy ancient fuelweaver without takin any damage or even having to kite, awesome synergy!

Walter with around 10 bunnymen means he can also kill bee queen very easily an fast enough with slingshot, hes even the best character for usin one man band cause no sanity drain. Yes slingshot is slow by itself by its not designed for solo use, its designed to support other players or follower mobs in combat and its great at that job!

If your using followers what is the slingshot really adding their outpacing your damage and you can just add more when you need more damage like it'd be one thing if it had useful support skills for help your followers pick enemies off easier but it doesn't so yea you can use followers but at that point the slingshot isn't really shining there either.

I know about the rocklobster thing as well but there's plenty of minerals to go around heck the cave even drops some for us every so often so I was never hurting for rocks to give them.

The bee queen thing I'd love to see. My big problem is yes it's clear it was designed to support combat but it's currently designed in a way only for someone who is bad at combat as a weapon the damage output is forgettable as a support it does nothing special mid combat you always run into these kind if scenarios if your using followers why not let them take care of the threat, if your with other players why not fight alongside them the fight will end much sooner meaning less chances for failure and less overall resources spent even if it's completely removed from being a weapon and turns completely into his a support tool I'd rather it actually accel at something 

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entire thread point useless, combat is the most boring stale **** in this game with the only variety being bosses that you have to run in a specific pattern rather than

  1. Smack x times
  2. run and double back

combat against people is whoever hits first, and ranged combat cant be made that much better if the normal combat isnt good either

also you cant really incentivize ranged players to be in close range, they are playing ranged for a reason A, and B if you "incentivize" it wrong you are punishing ranged players for playing ranged, monsters just need to take less stun from ranged and/or have ranged or movement ranged abilities like spiders leaping towards you

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6 hours ago, Cheggf said:

Preferring a weapon you replace in the first couple days over a tool you use forever perfectly sums up the people who don't like Walter. 

How come Wigfrid is allowed to be suboptimal and lazy but not Walter? Why is her dealing bad damage a useful perk but Walter dealing bad and safe damage in addition to everything else it does useless? 

...actually, this made me understand one of the problems with Walter.
He falls off...basically everywhere. Not directly bad like Woodie when Moonstorms exist, but...nothing helpful, either.

Wigfrid makes a good example here.
The spear is replaceable, but remains useful in that it's a quick, cheap option with decent damage; you'll want better once you're set up, but it's something that can be made with resources available all over the world (especially caves) that kills basic mobs faster than a default player's standard kit.
In addition to the spear, she has a helmet that's useful in the same way, particularly in the caves.
A player-specific no-maintenance healing perk, as well as damage, and a defensive buff.
Further enhancement through her songs, which only have to be made once and don't hold you back in other ways, so why not? The healing-boosting one is particularly easy to get your hands on.

I would say Wigfrid's central gameplay pull is just how lazy you can be with her in combat at any stage of the game.

 

 

But...once you progress through the game, nothing Walter has is uniquely useful. You're just playing a skin.
Which, don't get me wrong, that's fine. And his early game...exists briefly?? Depends on how fast you progress.
He's just...not someone you play for what he can do, outside of the first few days.
Which sucks, because it'd be great if even half of what he had were tuned to a worthwhile point. I'd love to see the kind of variety in the game that he could offer.
But everything he has is directly inferior to something else.

Woby > Beefalo that's both faster and won't stunlock you at the first sign of a papercut.
Woby Storage > Backpack/Chester/Bundle Wrap
Walter's Tent > Tent
Sanity Aura Immunity/Tree Sanity/Firepit Sanity > Sanity-boosting clothes (that don't affect him), equipment, food, Glom/Sisturn, not having to listen to his campfire noises yet again, ect (admittedly, this entire section is invalidated if you're running the Bee Movie Script mod)
Lighter Cooking > Pre-crafted Campfire
Faster Cooking > Willow/Warly/better food sources that don't require mass-cooking

Slingshot Aggro > Staves/Boomerang/Darts
Slingshot Safety > Kiting/Ice Staff/Armor/Healing Food/Followers/Mob Aggro to remove the fight/Tooth Traps/Sleep+Gunpowder/Wanda/L/Ratio
Freeze Rounds > Ice Staff (both have magic requirement, Ice Staff survives double the uses and attacks faster; Ice Round applying 2 charges of freeze is still outdone)
Poop Pellets > Could have an advantage over Ice Staff in being cheap, but actually aggros surrounding mobs of the same grouping since you're still making an attack; trap item.
Pebbles/Gold Rounds > Spear attacks faster, does better/same damage
Marble Rounds > Above Spear damage, still slow attack speed, requires upkeep of a Marble farm to use consistently.

Cursed Rounds > Ho boy. This could be good, but...

Spoiler

Better Thulecite items exist, the base damage is outclassed by melee that you can get by this point in the game, Shadow Tentacles are very unlikely to hit since you're not in melee keeping the target still, and they don't attempt to attack more than than a single 2-hit combo in the first place (might be a bug, but it's been reported several times over the years along with the cause and still exists, so maybe not).
If another player is keeping the target still, the tentacles are tanking their Sanity (unless that player's a melee Walter, or wearing BQ crown while possibly tanking a lot of damage).
If a mob or group of mobs are keeping the target still, either there are so many that this doesn't matter in the first place, or they're not kiting mobs...and if these rounds are worth using in this scenario, you're probably fighting something strong enough to yeet the mobs if you don't have a mass of those mobs sizable enough to make your damage input a trickle by comparison.
If the target is slow enough for the tentacles to hit naturally outside of melee...then you're fighting Toadstool, a Rock Lobster or a Slurtle, none of which can hit you at range, with copious amounts of Thulecite. Toadstool will eat half the world's supply of Thulecite by the time you kill it, Rock Lobsters will heal extra any time tentacles hit them during their hiding phase (and you could do so much more just mining them...not to mention, why are you killing these in the first place? Just curious.), and Slurtles are Slurtles. If you're that against dealing with them, a Torch or Fire Staff is your friend. One hit.
...the one takeaway from this is that it might be funny to no-hit Toadstool with Pebbles in a late-game world with an infinite supply of rocks before throwing Walter back in the trash where he belongs. I'm sure someone's done that already, though.


Slow Rounds > Could support the damage rounds...if those were worth using. If the slow effect was stronger, it could actually be useful with Cursed rounds against some things...but here we are.

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