goatt

[Discussion] Ranged Weapons' Biggest Problem And Suggestion About Fixing Walter

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Rafi.    636

I like the idea of having a new slingshot and a chance for the bullets to drop on the floor but I don't like the idea of Woby getting scared getting hit. When I fight I don't want to run after Woby to pet her. If she could just bring the ammo without having to do anything other than opening her inventory and feeding her some monster meat it would be alright.

Your idea for a slingshot is pretty nice but there's nothing that makes it more interesting than the regular one. And you could just play like regular old Walter but with extra dps.

If I had to find a cool idea to make Walter gameplay more interesting I would just add a shotgun like slingshot. Shoots 3 bullets in a spread, you'll need to get closer to make all the 3 bullets connect to the target. Not as close as a melee weapon of course. That could be an interesting side grade to the slingshot, you could choose to be very safe with the first one without spending too much ammo but doing less DPS than the other one. Riskier but would speed up the fight significantly. (Buffing the damage of the cursed rounds to 59.5 dmg could be nice, Farming melty marbles is definitively the worst thing ever.)

Walter isn't designed as a late game character, he's totally playable during it but at that point it's normal for him to do less damage than other characters since he already has some cool perks that others doesn't.

(Whips like items sure are not ranged but people should think about them as their own categories as a weapon due to having a significantly safer gameplay than regular melee, semi ranged or something like that.)

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goatt    928

@Rafi. you remind me that I need to clarify that the intention of my post is to solve the problems, but not to make the character more interesting.

I try to minimize the suggestion on changes and keep everything the same.

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Rafi.    636
1 hour ago, goatt said:

@Rafi. you remind me that I need to clarify that the intention of my post is to solve the problems, but not to make the character more interesting.

We can find ideas that can be solutions for some potential issue and be interesting at the same time, that's not exclusive !

1 hour ago, goatt said:

I try to minimize the suggestion on changes and keep everything the same.

What do you mean by that ?

Some of your points do makes me question about why people use ranged weapons, When I do play ranged, I don't want to bother with dodging, I don't want to be in a danger zone. It has never been designed that way in the first place when darts where added. I don't think it should go that way for all ranged weapons. When it comes to Walter specifically, you don't want to be hit, you avoid it entirely by being ranged, at the cost of DPS. Which is a fair trade. Having a low cost option such as living log to increase significantly your dps while staying at safe range isn't the best idea if not fleshed out. People could just play it like how Walter is right now.

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Mysterious box    2007
1 hour ago, Rafi. said:

When it comes to Walter specifically, you don't want to be hit, you avoid it entirely by being ranged, at the cost of DPS. Which is a fair trade.

This only works when everyone is on equal or near equal footing but they aren't Walter at his base is at a disadvantage while being given a shooting disadvantage as well while other characters have perks giving them a advantage on top of their base.

 

Another way to put to put it is his downsides meant to make melee combat less desirable but his downsides and balancing punish ranged combat far harder than it does melee causing him to ignore large parts of his perks.

Edited by Mysterious box
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kirihime    162
4 hours ago, goatt said:

Tail o' Three Cats, Alarming Clock and Bull Kelp are not considered as ranged weapons because many monsters can land melee attacks on you when you use them.

The vast majority can't.

In any case it's not like Walter can't use melee, people talk about him having "less damage output" when he's got the same damage as nearly everyone else. The slingshot is one way to approach a fight but it's hardly the only one, and his immunity to insanity auras only makes sense in melee anyway.

 

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Mysterious box    2007

Honestly the more I think about it the more I think combat just needs reworked if we've got to make ranged combat bad or too expensive to bother with legitimately then it needs to be changed otherwise why should it exist another thing to think about is that currently the best and most used ranged combat method is followers you get all the advantages of ranged combat while staying even safer and this is before even considering webber's followers who not only have ranged attacks but also healing. Alot of things in the game involving combat are just too lopsided which is what really contributes to very little weapon and armor variety.

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Rafi.    636
1 hour ago, Mysterious box said:

This only works when everyone is on equal or near equal footing but they aren't Walter at his base is at a disadvantage while being given a shooting disadvantage as well while other characters have perks giving them a advantage on top of their base.

 

Another way to put to put it is his downsides meant to make melee combat less desirable but his downsides and balancing punish ranged combat far harder than it does melee causing him to ignore large parts of his perks.

I don't agree, right now, where the slingshot isn't a very good weapon, it's an awesome tool that goes very well with Walter's downsides. Beefalo taming goes very well with Walter's gameplay, and having the slingshot while riding a beefalo is awesome. When doing a boss fight, if you're playing solo you'll have a longer fight but as long as you have some movespeed it should be alright, and when in multiplayer, you're a very good support doing a little extra dps without getting in the way if you're friends are kiting. (One of the reasons why I love Walter so much, I don't have to bump against my friends and get hit because of some bad placement).

Besides loosing sanity when Walter takes damage and his slingshot, he doesn't have any combat related stuff, both fits nicely in my opinion, I'm not sure what you're talking about.

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goatt    928
4 hours ago, Rafi. said:

What do you mean by that ?

My suggestion tries to be as minor as possible. It avoids any complex idea and consequently avoids many interesting ideas. It mainly tries to find a motivation for Walter to go back to monsters to make his fights less tedious rather than making his fights more interesting. It will have the same result, but different goals, hence, different approaches.

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Cheggf    8630

Putting a ton of work on the devs to make a bunch of ranged attacks just so you can make the enemies annoying (and probably ugly) in an effort to larp about "fixing" ranged combat. Ranged combat isn't broken, it doesn't need fixing. Blow darts are extremely powerful but difficult to amass and Walter's slingshot is more of a tool than a weapon, with it being able to be used as a weapon efficiently in some situations and inefficiently but safely in others.

Edited by Cheggf
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goatt    928
3 hours ago, kirihime said:

The vast majority can't.

The vast majority can’t do it at first, but can if you don’t dodge immediately. For example, if you don’t dodge right after whip a hound, the hound will be able to land a melee attack on you.

1 hour ago, Rafi. said:

When doing a boss fight, if you're playing solo you'll have a longer fight but as long as you have some movespeed it should be alright

It is alright and passable. But it’s lengthy and repetitive. Not only that, it’s true for almost all monsters. Imagine a character only do running and shooting to all bosses and with 3x time, it would be extra tedious for extra long time. In comparison, melee fights with different bosses usually have very different experience.

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goatt    928
7 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

Putting a ton of work on the devs to make a bunch of ranged attacks just so you can make the enemies annoying (and probably ugly) in an effort to larp about "fixing" ranged combat. Ranged combat isn't broken, it doesn't need fixing. Blow darts are extremely powerful but difficult to amass and Walter's slingshot is more of a tool than a weapon, with it being able to be used as a weapon efficiently in some situations and inefficiently but safely in others.

I agree most of your points. I personally don’t think monsters’ behaviors should be changed, especially people rarely use darts.

 

Before slingshot, ranged weapons only serve utility functions.

- Boomerang is only for killing small mobs, or draw aggro, not a combat weapon.

- damage darts are similar gunpowder, in crafting and in using.

- throwables aren’t sustainable nor high damage.

Devs always approach ranged weapon by making them unappealing and then they don’t have to deal with bad ranged combat experience. Ranged combat is usually so short or so rare because it is too time consuming to collect materials for ammo or to use them in fight. So the players won’t feel bored before ammo running out.

Devs approach slingshot the same way, i.e. by making it unappealing in some way. But slingshot is different, it’s a stable. It usually has enough ammo for a lengthy fight. So the problem of dull ranged combat can’t be avoided and has become significant.

To summarize my point:

1. Ranged combat excluding slingshot is not broken or dull, because it’s rare and usually quick to run out. Players usually have to stop using ranged weapons before they can feel boredom.

2. Slingshot combat usually have sufficient ammo, and its lengthy durability can make the problem of ranged weapon (repetitiveness and tedium) significant and unavoidable.

3. I personally agree with you and don’t think devs need to work on solution 1 or 3. That’s why I only focus on solution 2 and only made suggestions as minor as possible. I didn’t invalidate solution 1 or 3 in case I accidentally offend anyone, because such ideas do exist in the forums.

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kirihime    162

some things I feel like i should have said earlier

Walter isn't a "ranged character". He's a character with a bunch of perks, one of which is having ranged attacks as an option.
Ranged combat itself isn't Walter's "thing", he also gets a free chester that can come to caves, a free beefalo of sorts, and a completely different sanity system.

people fixate on the slingshot and assume it's the only thing relevant about the character and what he was designed around, and that since it's not on the level of wanda's whip he therefore sucks.
maybe in the land of boss rush starve, "wendy shouldn't get a damage bonus from petals", "wilson needs a rework badly", "woodie is useless", and other such takes, that's the case, but in-game he's decent and fun to play.
i certainly enjoy playing him and he doesn't need a glock to be good

 

Edited by kirihime
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Mysterious box    2007
2 hours ago, Rafi. said:

I don't agree, right now, where the slingshot isn't a very good weapon, it's an awesome tool that goes very well with Walter's downsides. Beefalo taming goes very well with Walter's gameplay, and having the slingshot while riding a beefalo is awesome. When doing a boss fight, if you're playing solo you'll have a longer fight but as long as you have some movespeed it should be alright, and when in multiplayer, you're a very good support doing a little extra dps without getting in the way if you're friends are kiting. (One of the reasons why I love Walter so much, I don't have to bump against my friends and get hit because of some bad placement).

Besides loosing sanity when Walter takes damage and his slingshot, he doesn't have any combat related stuff, both fits nicely in my opinion, I'm not sure what you're talking about.

How does the slingshot specifically help his downsides the fact people are mainly opting to tame a beefalo means they're opting to entirely ignore his downside rather than working with it on top of that having a beefalo means you've official bypassed the reason to use the slingshot in combat since his sanity or low hp isn't an issue anymore what does the ranged weapon provide on a beefalo that's actually a benefit over using the beefalo's attack. This also means Woby failed at her intended purpose.

As for not being very good at fighting I do feel like that's a good reason to use the slingshot but making it a weapon only people bad at fighting use seems incredibly wasteful.

He does have combat related stuff his entire slingshot mechanic is a combat mechanic. The slingshot is very minor chip damage it's better to have it than nothing but it's very minor damage compared to what every other character will be outputting.

1 hour ago, Cheggf said:

Putting a ton of work on the devs to make a bunch of ranged attacks just so you can make the enemies annoying (and probably ugly) in an effort to larp about "fixing" ranged combat. Ranged combat isn't broken, it doesn't need fixing. Blow darts are extremely powerful but difficult to amass and Walter's slingshot is more of a tool than a weapon, with it being able to be used as a weapon efficiently in some situations and inefficiently but safely in others.

Ranged combat seems to currently amount to cheese or just as slower less efficient way to do something I get not wanting to put alot or work on the devs but it feels weird to have a character with a bunch of downsides tied to ranged combat with ammo clearly catered to ranged combat but ranged combat being so not worth it. We can way it's a tool and only use it for shooting birds like other players but even then there are other options even it being safer than alternatives is debatable if we're considering all options.

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kirihime    162
1 minute ago, Mysterious box said:

How does the slingshot specifically help his downsides the fact people are mainly opting to tame a beefalo means they're opting to entirely ignore his downside rather than working with it on top of that having a beefalo means you've official bypassed the reason to use the slingshot in combat since his sanity or low hp isn't an issue anymore what does the ranged weapon provide on a beefalo that's actually a benefit over using the beefalo's attack. This also means Woby failed at her intended purpose.

you can shoot things like koalefants, birds, and rabbits, using the slingshot on something already in combat won't change aggro, and how does this not also apply if you craft a hambat or dark sword as walter and kite

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goatt    928
11 minutes ago, kirihime said:

people fixate on the slingshot and assume it's the only thing relevant about the character and what he was designed around, and that since it's not on the level of wanda's whip he therefore sucks.

Wanda’s alarming clock is not considered as ranged weapon in OP.

Slingshot has cursed rounds that cost thulecite fragments. If it’s not such a big deal, why would it need to use some of the rare resources? Since those rare stuffs exist, we need to make changes to justify/balance their cost.

The main problem, is not above, but the repetitiveness and tedium in using slingshot, which is the safest way for little Walter to fight. Low damage which makes fight lengthy also contributes to that.

Edited by goatt

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Mysterious box    2007
5 minutes ago, kirihime said:

you can shoot things like koalefants, birds, and rabbits, using the slingshot on something already in combat won't change aggro, and how does this not also apply if you craft a hambat or dark sword as walter and kite

You can also craft a boomerang but i get your point for the former.

As for the weapon thing if your good at kiting and the slingshot's advantage is for being bad at kiting what then is the point of using a bad weapon over a better one?

The beefalo was brought up because it removes his don't get hit downside if I wasn't being clear.

Edited by Mysterious box

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kirihime    162
7 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

You can also craft a boomerang but i get your point for the former.

As for the weapon thing if your good at kiting and the slingshot's advantage is for being bad at kiting what then is the point of using a bad weapon over q better one?

I will say I do think the slingshot is weak and could use more damage, my problem is that people distill Walter entirely down to the slingshot when it's only one of the things he gets and arguably the sanity mechanics are what he's more built around.

Also just the idea that he "doesn't work as a character" when in-game he fits together well and works quite nicely.
 

 

Edited by kirihime
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Mysterious box    2007
Just now, kirihime said:

I will say I do think the slingshot is weak and could use more damage, my problem is that people distill Walter entirely down to the slingshot when it's only one of the things he gets and arguably the sanity mechanics are what he's more built around.
 

 

It's because his sanity mechanic's existence seems to encourage ranged combat add to the fact he has so many damage based ammo types and it more or less appears the focus was a ranged explorer.

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kirihime    162
2 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

It's because his sanity mechanic's existence seems to encourage ranged combat add to the fact he has so many damage based ammo types and it more or less appears the focus was a ranged explorer.

Insanity auras scale inversely with distance, so his sanity mechanics are doing very little if you're fighting at range

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Mysterious box    2007
Just now, kirihime said:

Insanity auras scale inversely with distance, so his sanity mechanics are doing very little if you're fighting at range

I feel llike the intention of the aura immunity was to compensate the immediate sanity loss on hit as you have to admit it would feel very unfair to take lots of sanity damage from combat and insanity auras at the same time.

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Cheggf    8630
1 hour ago, Mysterious box said:

Ranged combat seems to currently amount to cheese or just as slower less efficient way to do something

Yeah. It's a sandbox survival game. If you want to skip fights use blow darts and if you're extremely scared of fights use the slingshot's damaging ammos. Go play something like Mordhau if you want a complicated combat system, DST's is perfect for DST.

If ranged combat has to dodge attacks just like melee combat and ranged combat is tied for damage with melee combat then what is the point of ranged combat? You clearly just want to do melee so do melee.

Edited by Cheggf

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Mysterious box    2007
7 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

Yeah. It's a sandbox survival game. If you want to skip fights use blow darts and if you're extremely scared of fights use the slingshot's damaging ammos. Go play something like Mordhau if you want a complicated combat system, DST's is perfect for DST.

If ranged combat has to dodge attacks just like melee combat and ranged combat is tied for damage with melee combat then what is the point of ranged combat? You clearly just want to do melee so do melee.

This can be applied to the refreshes, crafting systems, and content updates saying it something shouldn't change because it's the way it's always been isn't ab good argument.

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Cheggf    8630
27 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

This can be applied to the refreshes, crafting systems, and content updates saying it something shouldn't change because it's the way it's always been isn't ab good argument.

And saying something should change just because it's always been that way is a good one? You have literally brought forth zero arguments on why changing ranged to be the same as melee would be an improvement. 

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