Crafting menu feedback

[Pig Princess]

I tested crafting menu for a while and I have a lot of concerns regarding it, which I hope will be addressed.

First thing I noticed and the most inconvenient one for me is the fact that now one needs to do much more clicks to craft something not pinned on the quick access panel. Specifically, in new system it's click for opening crafting window, click for opening specific tab, click for selecting object and click to craft it – 4 total, and if one wants to pin it on quick access - its additional 5th click to this panel and it closes randomly during attempt to craft different thing and every single time after prototyping structure. In old system it was 1 click to open corresponding tab and 1 click to craft a thing, much more simple, elegant and convenient solution. 4 clicks vs 2, where old system clearly wins, plus old window didn’t close every time. If scrolling was a problem – and why would it on PC in the first place? Scroll wheel is a great tool, - I don’t see why couldn’t crafts in particular tab be shown in the form of table rather than list. New system tries to solve a problem that doesn’t exist for me, but brings so much pain that I seriously consider to stop playing DST forever (unless mods fix it). I like early and mid-game the most, and during this stage I tend to craft/prototype things once or relatively rarely repeat craft, so new crafting system only makes me spend extra time. I would have welcomed a way to change priority of recipe in particular tab and make "favourite" tab if old crafting menu had stayed though.

Pinning everything to quick access tab is not a solution: a lot of crafts don’t need to be on quick access panel since they are crafted once per playthrough or relatively rarely (science machine, sewing kit, clothing, tools, saddles, some structures such as ice flingomatic or birdcage, etc.), because it doesn’t save noticeable amount of time or clicks, but click amount increase is just inconvenience existing for no reason, that is solely a product of new system. Moreover, quick access panel has only 9 slots, and things like torch, rope, weapons and armor are a priority particularly because those things benefit the most from quick access and with new 4+ clicks one might as well not try to stay alive if those things are not pinned but needed in the moment. And even if amount of slots was increased, one would run into the same problem of scrolling through them, but now it would be 1 tab for everything rather than multiple tabs, which is clearly worse; switching presets suggestion sounds nice, but still increasing their number would meet the same problem that is implied to exist in the old crafting system, plus pinning things to favourite tab is very inconvenient and had to be done in-game (without pause in multiplayer) every single time one joins new server. Unnecessarily painful process I wish didn’t exist since it's 5 clicks per item, even more for skinned ones, and I can’t even do everything at once since I can’t edit position of recipes not showing up in the first place (t2 science, magic and so on before I gain access to "required tier -1" crafting station). No such problem existed in the old crafting menu, which means new one is clear downgrade in that regard.

Third thing I don’t like is, as many pointed out, existence of one item in different categories that only clutters menu, which is the opposite of new crafting menu goal in the first place. Also personally I would rather not have new players see morning star in light tab and try to use it solely as light source, if see them doing it while I’m admin, I would insta-ban the person, sorry not sorry. Can game not lead to such traps for new players and such burden on those who actually bring those resources to common base? Also by that logic torch should be nearly in every tab since its light source, weapon, winter gear, technically can be used in decorations, tool (for creating ash and charcoal, clearing weeds, etc.), etc., but it would clutter menu even more. I welcome desire to help new players, but considering multipurpose nature of objects in-game, I think its inherent problem of DS/T series and the best solution is to leave only 1 copy of object in crafting menu and let person figure the rest themselves. No guide via crafting tabs organization will be enough and will make more good than harm, I think. Boundary of usage cases is easy to define for some objects, but others are just too versatile and following consistency in developing new menu would lead to its inevitable cluttering with this approach. Bird cage moved to food tab is change which I like though, because it makes sense for it to be there, same for bug net in tools tab.

And yet another concern of mine is the fact that in order to benefit from quick crafting a lot of objects need to be in quick tab with their ingredients, sometimes multiple. Spear and football helmet are actually spear + rope and football helmet + rope, it’s even worse for crafts that include electrical doodad or multiple refined resources. So it’s not 9 slots available for quick access, but actually much less of them.

Example of convenient menu for things is “Too many items” mod: menu is brought with hotkey, and then one has to use 2 more clicks to open tab and spawn items; just like in new crafting menu objects are located in the form of table and not list; however, objects don’t exist simultaneously in 2+ tabs and one doesn’t have to double click to interact with particular menu part. Yes, 2 clicks are better than 3, but 3 clicks are better than 4.

New menu is also very large and I can’t see myself using it while I’m moving or performing actions because of that, which is sad because I like to do it with old menu (I’m moving with mouse, which adds to the problem). Aside from compact version of it, if new menu didn’t automatically close, and if it automatically opened near research station I would welcome that.

I would like to write a list of suggestions considering mentioned issues in order to improve crafting experience:

 - remove requirement to double click on item in menu in order to craft it, one is more than enough. As for changing skin, arrows can be added to the object icon inside menu just like in old system so one could change skin;
 - make player able to pin items to quick access via right click on item icon rather than require player to both click and move mouse to quick access tab;
 - make player able to have multiple presets of items in quick access panel and give player ability to configure those presets outside of server, as well as ability to pin items regardless of technology/magic level required to craft those items (items could be shown as locked until prototyped, or until one is near specific crafting station required to craft them in case items from pseudoscience tab and such); [currently one can’t pin alchemy recipes from the start of the game since they aren’t even shown in the menu to pin, for example]
 - remove unnecessary repeats of items in different tabs;
 - make menu auto-closing a setting, so one can choose whether to let it close each time after craft and such, or only when player closes it manually;
 - make crafting menu automatically open near research station (this is not a thing for old menu, but I would like that to become a thing since if I’m near crafting station, in 99% of cases first thing I’ll do is opening crafting tab).

Also I may not know something and suggest things that are already in the game, but my mouse died, so I can’t test new menu more right now (and honestly play DST at this point), but at the same time I don’t feel like waiting at all with feedback regarding new crafting menu.

[-Nick-]

Ah yes, a great way to encourage new players to keep playing the game. 

Don't Starve's whole design is trial and error. People make mistakes, with the addition to multiplayer, that allows players to communicate. Communication allows more experienced players to teach new ones. 

It's not the new crafting menu's fault for falsely guiding players, its the ones who refuse to teach and help educate new people.

Yes sure it can be a minor problem, but banning a person over a simple mistake isnt going to help anyone, but discourage new players from playing the game.

 

If you really want a solution to your "problem", then the easiest thing is suggest to Klei to add mini icons next to the craftable. These mini icons when hovered shows the name of the crafting tab. The morning star would have light and combat mini icons next to it.

[Logsphinx]

For most people one (1) mouse click requires zero effort but for some it requires a little effort. This can make a significant difference in the long term, particularly with repetitive actions like crafting. I would like too to have to click one time on an item to craft it instead of double clicking.

Another possible change to reduce the number of clicks would be to open the crafting menu just by hovering the curser over the crafting menu icon (with the addition of a little space between the crafting menu icon and the first pinned item). I like that moving the cursor away from the crafting menu closes it, for those who want the crafting menu to stay open maybe it could work that way: if one opens the crafting menu with the CAPS LOCK key then it remains open until one presses this key again.

1 hour ago, Pig Princess said:

 - make crafting menu automatically open near research station (this is not a thing for old menu, but I would like that to become a thing since if I’m near crafting station, in 99% of cases first thing I’ll do is opening crafting tab).

I would be annoyed if the crafting menu automatically opens whenever I happen to pass by a research station (this happens a lot).

[QuartzBeam]

2 hours ago, Pig Princess said:

remove unnecessary repeats of items in different tabs

The sheer amount of people who don't seem to grasp the concept of crafting filters astounds me.

[Guille6785]

While I don't necessarily hate the new system and I'm sure with a lot of favorites you could get around the extra clicks issue, the new menu just doesn't offer anything to me that I couldn't already have done equally or more comfortably on the previous system so I really don't feel like I have an incentive to get used to it, if a mod comes out to revert the menu I'll probably stick to that

personally I would've preferred a hybrid of both systems, with all the regular crafting tabs on the side but with an option to display them as a table instead of a list to accomodate more items without having to scroll + a favorite tab

[lionking102]

Man... I don't think I have the energy to go through this again...

Especially the 4+ vs 2 clicks I can't get... Just an oversimplified and onesided argumentation and a lot of hte stuff is just not true ... 

[MondayNight]

1 hour ago, QuartzBeam said:

The sheer amount of people who don't seem to grasp the concept of crafting filters astounds me.

Perhaps some people don't need said filters to begin with?! At all. And by "the sheer amount" maybe that number is quite high?! Quick solution: have a main menu's on/off setting for them/filters presence.

 

I for one am pretty baffled why KLei decided to rework Crafting UI in the first place towards this direction: 1 big rectangular window with 2 rows of filters and click-y adjacent galore. In all my 5 years here never have I read even 1 comment pointing at this current Beta CUI's direction. What I've seen: suggestions towards better organization of old Crafting System, in a more logical manner, grouping certain similar elements together, giving players the ability to organize recipes order in said menu, etc. But what we got, this cluttered bulk with bloated filters, clickty-clack galore and so on... hmm.

An image is worth 1000 words and since I first saw the New Crafting UI preview my opinion.. remained largely the same after Beta was out: KLei tries to "solve" some scrolling non-existing issue with a click-obfuscation one. Hope changes will be made till Beta ends so people such as OP and myself be accommodated too.

[QuartzBeam]

2 minutes ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

Perhaps some people don't need said filters to begin with?!

Perhaps those people should not go around making absolute statements about the necessity, or lack thereof, of said filters, solely on the basis that they themselves do not need them because they've been playing the game forever.

 

4 minutes ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

I for one am pretty baffled why KLei decided to rework Crafting UI in the first place towards this direction

The forums represent a minority of the game's playerbase. Meanwhile, Klei gathers data on how the entire playerbase plays the game, so I think it's safe to assume they see something that you don't.

[lionking102]

17 minutes ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

I for one am pretty baffled why KLei decided to rework Crafting UI in the first place towards this direction: 1 big rectangular window with 2 rows of filters and click-y adjacent galore. In all my 5 years here never have I read even 1 comment pointing at this current Beta CUI's direction. What I've seen: suggestions towards better organization of old Crafting System, in a more logical manner, grouping certain similar elements together, giving players the ability to organize recipes order in said menu, etc. But what we got, this cluttered bulk with bloated filters, clickty-clack galore and so on... hmm.

Other people can have other opinions on that. The old Crafting GUI was a mess with 100 problems and for me the number one thing that needed a rework. 

It's ok that you don't like it, but that doesn't mean redoing it was a bad idea. Every single new friend I played with the last 7 years didn't like the crafting and was always asking were stuff is and the most important thing: They never had any motivation to look through the gui what stuff you can craft and that's a pretty big problem... 

[MondayNight]

11 minutes ago, QuartzBeam said:

Perhaps those people should not go around making absolute statements about the necessity, or lack thereof, of said filters, solely on the basis that they themselves do not need them because they've been playing the game forever.

 

The forums represent a minority of the game's playerbase. Meanwhile, Klei gathers data on how the entire playerbase plays the game, so I think it's safe to assume they see something that you don't.

May or may not be the case. Take Wolfgang's first rework iteration and how was changed via current Beta in repeated ways till what I reckon is now a general successful approach - as a parallel, there were a lot of people "praising" first iteration too (on these forums and debatable on what grounds), as quite the number seem to be doing with present new Crafting UI in a very apologetic manner to the apparent point of "blind fandom" bias stance. On the other hand, is not me but you who underlined "the sheer amount of people who don't seem to grasp the concept of crafting filters.." (in my eyes is not grasping, but liking/fancying) - hence "perhaps those people should not go around making absolute statements about the necessity, or lack thereof, of said filters, solely on the basis that they themselves do not need them because they've been playing the game forever" is a moot point. Having more control over one's settings, like the filters you deem a general bon, is always welcomed in my book.

 

2 minutes ago, lionking102 said:

Sorry to say, but other people have other opinions. The old Crafting GUI was a mess with 100 problems and for me the number one thing that needed a rework. 

It's ok that you don't like it, but that doesn't mean redoing it was a bad idea. Every single new friend I played with the last 7 years didn't like the crafting and was always asking were stuff is and the most important thing: They never had any motivation to look through the gui what stuff you can craft and that's a pretty big problem... 

Other people always have different opinions. Is not an issue of do one-way-or-the-other, but of options for both sides, compromises. I get it, this new Crafting UI is KLei's way to the future, but it seems there is an increasing number of players disliking parts or wide-concepts of it, and addressing their grievances - akin Wolf's re-re-rework - should matter too. With such a general big change you can't expect all be on board and merry about.

[lionking102]

10 minutes ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

Other people always have different opinions. Is not an issue of do one-way-or-the-other, but of options for both sides, compromises. I get it, this new Crafting UI is KLei's way to the future, but it seems there is an increasing number of players disliking parts or wide-concepts of it, and addressing their grievances - akin Wolf's re-re-rework - should matter too. With such a general big change you can't expect all be on board and merry about.

Exactly that. Not everyone will be happy with big changes and Klei knows that. So they decided to go this way and we have to adapt. 

And as for the feedback: I don't see an increasing amount of negativ feedback. By far the most negative feedback was before the beta was even out, which says a lot. Also a lot of the argumention I see in threads like this is really emotional, not well thought out and so one-sided that I think it will not convince Klei to go to an different concept. But that's only my opinion Klei has to decide. 

Also sorry for me getting emotional. I just think feedback like this is not fair and I got a bit passionate 

[Pig Princess]

3 hours ago, QuartzBeam said:

who don't seem to grasp the concept of crafting filters

 

1 hour ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

Perhaps some people don't need said filters to begin with?!

Exactly. I don't grasp this concept because I don't need it and wasn't aware I would even. Therefore didn't try. I had time and energy to test beta quite late and some posts with patch notes might be buried already, but even though I read some of them I just didn't pay attention to filters because I never needed such thing and imagined it was something related to search. Moreover, wouldn't using filters lead to even more time I have to spend for no reason? I'm genuely curious. Also, as I admitted, I may not know something just because I couldn't test this system more, but at the same time what I tested either worked worse than previous system, or worked with the same comfort to me.

2 hours ago, lionking102 said:

Especially the 4+ vs 2 clicks I can't get... Just an oversimplified and onesided argumentation

Can you elaborate, please, why is it oversimplified and what am I missing? I wrote what I experienced (I rushed ruins as Wolfgang a couple of times), I didn't try to oversimplify and even stated lack of knowledge in my initial comment. Basically, I'm a newbie in this system, and suffer all consequences and effects of that. I wish to play comfortably and enjoy new system, but that's why I posted my concerns in the first place. I don't regret it, since I'd better show my lack of knowledge and gain chance to get constructive advice rather that stay silent and remain to be disappointed in new system, as well as not understanding it. Asking people and watching guide even in real life is faster way of learning compared to blindly pressing everything in every possible combination, and I prefer to spend less time. Honestly, considering that until I saw in the internet that I can split stack of items with particular key combination, I didn't figure it myself, so I guess when it comes to input network I'm close to a dumb side of humanity, I'm sorry.

1 hour ago, QuartzBeam said:

Perhaps those people should not go around making absolute statements about the necessity

But for me absence of necessity is absolutely true. I never said that it's common opinion or something like that. Even now you are writing about filters, but I don't understand why would I need them in the first place. I was content with old crafting system excluding the fact that I wanted favourite crafting tab and/or ability to make particular recipes to show first in the list, like bundle wrap one.

Also I'm not hating new system and don't suggest to fully revert back to old one, I just want some things to be addressed, and gather more information about new system, including experience of other people, preferably not opinion, but concrete examples of usage and what was improved, can be done in better way, etc. I just think there are some good elements in old system new one could benefit from.

As for well thought, well... I try my best, and obviously when I have more information, practice and testing time, my posts are thought much better. But in this case I was honestly afraid that this iteration of crafting menu comes live without any choice, and I would miss my chance to understand situation better. I never pretended to be a paragon of absolute knowledge of humanity, that would be silly. That doesn't mean I can't appear to be the most knowledgable person in particular area and/or particular time, or I should automatically think of my arguements as inferior to those of others, that only means that strength of arguements is in arguements, not personality of human who stated them. I'm willing to listen and equally willing to accept whether I'm right or wrong, don't see a full picture or do, etc.

[Cheggf]

25 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

Can you elaborate, please, why is it oversimplified and what am I missing?

Old menu was a click to open a specific menu, scrolling to what you need, then a click to craft it. New menu is a click to open it, a click to go to the tab you want, and a doublclick to craft. Replacing scrolling on a tiny menu with a click to go to a nice grid is a good improvement.

Not to mention the favorites tab which can have any combination of things you want in it, or the pinned recipes. It can take some getting used to but the new menu is a major improvement, even if it could use a few more tweaks.

[Pig Princess]

8 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

Old menu was a click to open a specific menu, scrolling to what you need, then a click to craft it. New menu is a click to open it, a click to go to the tab you want, and a doublclick to craft.

So basically scrolling part was replaced with extra 2 clicks and hovering cursor over item. That's what I'm writing about, I think, scrolling is a great tool and I don't see a problem with that. Moreover, scrolling part could be replaced with table and hovering over it as a setting, and it won't create extra clicks problem, but would get rid of scrolling for those for whom it was a problem.

Favourite tab could be added regardless of whether old or new type of menu was used, hotkey could be used to switch between it and other tabs, or favoutite tab could coexist with other tabs, they take very little space anyway.

[Cheggf]

42 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

So basically scrolling part was replaced with extra 2 clicks

Calling a DoubleClick two extra clicks is only technically right. It's not really any harder than a single click.

Scrolling was replaced with a click, which is a lot easier and faster. Once again that's ignoring all the other improvements.

42 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

and hovering cursor over item

What do you mean hovering cursor over item? You have to click on something to make it in both systems. If you mean specifically clicking on "build" you don't have to, you can just DoubleClick on the item in the grid.

42 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

Favourite tab could be added regardless of whether old or new type of menu was used,

Even if there was room, which there wasn't, whether or not the favorites tab was added to the old menu it couldn't be used. The reason there's so many different non-prototype stations like the think tank, tackle receptacle, terra firmer, etc, is because the old menu had no more room to store anything. The beta has more room, infinite room, because it's designed completely differently. It's why this beta has done several changes like the removal of adverts and allowing the free crafting of bait from anywhere.

[GodIess]

I said this before but I will repeat.
-Ability to pin tabs for quick access
Thus, we will have something similar to the old menu but without the drawbacks in terms of scrolling. Why not let the players open the desired tab right away and then change them in the open menu. Personally, I find it more convenient to pin the tools tab than to pin the 4 main tools that I use regularly without leaving room for other more important things.
-A setting in the menu that will allow you to return the old order of tabs and things in them.
It will be very useful for old players, because I really sit and poke each tab trying to figure out where the item I needed was transferred. If it is possible to reduce the number of filters to what many tabs are used to and return items to their places, the only thing I would leave is the decoration tab. All this can already be done by changing the filter file, so why not make it optional?
-Сraft with one right click and, for example, fix an item on a click on the scroll wheel.
Make a choice of crafting on the left mouse button and creation at the click of a button, or a quick option for players who know everything you need - open the menu to hover over an item that you can wait for and make a right click and the character will start crafting, thereby reducing the number of clicks from 3-4 to 2 -3 and if you use the menu button, then even up to 1-2.

[Mangrove]

I have a hand injury so I love that I can actually play DST almost entirely with just my left hand! I like the look of the new crafting menu but it is a lot more painful for me with all the extra clicking, it really is a very noticeable difference. I guess my point is that the extra clicks, and double clicks in particular, makes it less accessible. I did dislike excessive clicking even before my injury though but now I guess I am extra sensitive to these things.

I really, really love the quick access slots on the side though, maybe add a second column? They make life so much easier

I would also like to see more custom tabs, not just the one favorites tab. I'd be happy with maybe 3, but while we're at it, what if all the tabs were customizable?

And let me craft the needed materials under an item by clicking them in the menu.

[PetulantPansy]

I know the size of everything has been an issue. Most people say the menu is too big. However, when you hover over something in the quick craft tab, the ingredients are tiny? I don't like. I think a similar problem exists for everything else in the menu but I haven't checked it out in depth yet. Still prefer the old menu but it's whatever.