So hows Wolfgang?

[Pig Princess]

7 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

I ran into this one too.  One of my friends who hadn't played Wolfgang before the rework decided to pick it up - and when we all went to dfly and were ready to start, he had to lift weights to get mighty and it was all of us just standing there waiting, while he was using stone dumbbell.

Exactly this happened with me and Wolfgangs but at Bee Queen. Wolf player could have used golden dumbell, but it wouldn't change much, and early game purple gems are luck based rather than product of proper reliable strategy (ruins rush, DFly rush, the latter done as a group is described by you perfectly accurate), + setting up prestihatitator before one can prototype shadow manipulator is a waste and a lot of people don't build it before they can upgrade to t2 magic. We could kill BQ by the time Wolf was ready.

Another case was shadow pieces fight. Same, we waited as much as we could, but had to start before Wolfgang was ready because night was about to end. There were me (Warly), Wigfrid and Wolfgang. By the time Wolf joined the fight we killed knight and were working on bishop; Wolfgang died near the end of the fight - which was his own lack of skill, sure - but when we ended the fight shortly after, we offered revive for them, but they refused to play longer and left immediately after. I suspect death was not a reason, at least it's unlikely, because usually when someone dies and there is a good team, it's a matter of "I'll res you wait a sec"/"omw with res" followed by "ty"/"tysm". Maybe my suspect is incorrect, but I had this itching from that time until today.

Yet another case was FW, we spent on fight less time than Wolf was preparing.

Damage modifier is the only thing Wolf now has for a fight, and even though in multiplayer in group fight individual damage modifier is much less impactful and useful, it's understandable why Wolfgangs are still lifting weights before the fight. But it's so clear and sad that those Wolfs would have helped more if joined fight immediately in normal or even wimpy form, picked Warly or even Wes, that I feel sorry for them. If only they had something unique they could provide, but alas. For Klaus fight Wes is legit better, because he uses ice staff better than anyone and can therefore cancel fire disaster better than everyone. Warly without any farms can at least cook glow berry mousse and fish cordon bleu, and has stable 1x damage modifier, not to mention cooking healing food on the go in desperate times between fights (during poorly going ruins rush, for example).

[xhyom]

I'm so excited for the next update so we can finally stop talking about Wolfgang

[Yuuko]

2 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

early game purple gems are luck based rather than product of proper reliable strategy (ruins rush, DFly rush, the latter done as a group is described by you perfectly accurate), + setting up prestihatitator before one can prototype shadow manipulator is a waste and a lot of people don't build it before they can upgrade to t2 magic. We could kill BQ by the time Wolf was ready.

Yeah, I had a different world where I dug up 6 red gems but no blue gems.  I had to wait for winter to finally get blue for an ice staff for dfly, and purple for t2 magic.  When we rushed dfly in the game above the goal was to get purple gems - but obviously priority would give purple to t2 magic that can help more people and is 1 time use rather than gembells which are for 1 character and consumed.  dfly drops 1-2 so its a chance they both get it, but Wolfgang is lower priority obviously.  The person who went to do ruins in this run was new at it, and wasn't successful at returning with loots before winter.  They are learning, we work as a team and share our skills, part of early game is dividing to certain tasks and then coming back for group tasks like dfly.

[MondayNight]

29 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

I wonder what the stats are character choice have been since Wanda and Wolfgang's reworks though?  How did we get these stats?  Was there an api we could hit to always get this information, or was it some info dump Klei released?

Here's the api for general server pickings (and much more data). At moment of this post Wolf is 5th, and Wanda 10th. But need to factorize the hype for Wolf rework and the fact many are still in some form of vacation/free time (pandemic and February) only now able to test him/give a go+ at his new play-style, plus Wanda having a pay/spool-wall on limiting her use. But even so, on the EU servers I play (dedicated community Endless), Wanda is used a lot while one can barely see any Wolfgang on long-term worlds. To top it off, 2 days ago Wolf was 4th - seems he's rapidly going under again.

[Yuuko]

8 minutes ago, xhyom said:

I'm so excited for the next update so we can finally stop talking about Wolfgang

It will be sad if ppl stop talking about Wolfgang without some changes.  He's in a bad state, imo worse than Winona b/c at least her catapults are good once you set them up.  Wolfgang is just shafted.

6 minutes ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

Here's the api for general server pickings (and much more data). At moment of this post, Wolf is 5th, and Wanda 10th. But need to factorize the hype for Wolf rework and the fact many are still in some form of vacation/free time (pandemic and February), plus Wanda having a pay/spool-wall on limiting her use. But even so, on the EU server I play (dedicated community Endless) Wanda is used a lot while one can barely see any Wolfgang on long-term worlds.

thx gonna bookmark that !  It say: Started tracking since: 2021-12-11. so this is a rolling data set?  Or when does it reset?  I feel this is probably strongly skewed from ppl playing Wolfgang b/c he was reworked.  We'd want to see what the numbers are starting after a few weeks of his release.  I guess we just wait for that.

[Cloakingsumo198]

9 minutes ago, xhyom said:

I'm so excited for the next update so we can finally stop talking about Wolfgang

Spoiler

I will never stop talking about Wolfgang until my death.  He lives on in our hearts.

 

[00petar00]

What i think about Wolfgang is that he needs a different kind of minigame that doesn't make you watch him do animations but actually related to gameplay. Just make it easier to maintain mighty form without needing to stand still, maybe just running around with piggyback should make him not lose mightiness and he should be able to use dumbbells while walking.

I don't mind the speed nerf when mighty if we take into consideration what he got in compensation for it, using marble suit and piggyback without speed penalty, carrying suspicious marble at 60% speed, 60 Insulation and rowing speed.

 

[MondayNight]

5 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

It say: Started tracking since: 2021-12-11. so this is a rolling data set?  Or when does it reset?  I feel this is probably strongly skewed from ppl playing Wolfgang b/c he was reworked.  We'd want to see what the numbers are starting after a few weeks of his release.

I presume yes, it sums up; therefore yeah, most likely now, for today (at moment of this post), the pickings would be different and Wolf, given his pick decline ("To top it off, 2 days ago Wolf was 4th - seems he's rapidly going under again") would be much lower, and Wanda's probably higher - she seems to only gain traction as times passes (late-game she is very-very proficient not only combat-wise but also from traveling pov). More-so: I've seen in pubs/discords many people expressing desire to get Wanda via spools (in discussions about what to unravel) precisely because she is that good at combat&traveling via tp, and seeing that Wolf got the nerf bat, now with bothersome idle mechanics.

[Mike23Ua]

Gonna be honest, I was hoping they would announce rather his rework was finalized or if changes are being made with the 2022 roadmap.

Instead the roadmap didn’t really reveal much other then WX78, Wickerbottom, Wilson & Maxwell will finally get their reworks.

The hilarious thing about these reworks is that if these characters were NOT Reworked and instead they were already like there reworks in a newly released Game (DS 2) then I bet there would be A LOT less complaints about it.

Just look at other games- Princess peach could only use her dress to “float glide” in Mario Bros 2 and ever since that game she’s never been able to do it again…

Wolfgang ran fast in DS solo and I’m willing to bet 2.5 million dollars that much like Princess peach.. his dress will never let him float glide again.

[Pig Princess]

57 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

The speed at which they came back with a wholly different version of Wendy's refresh, including new animations, made me suspect they had both versions mostly made, and decided to go with one over the other - the dev team may have been split with this, and went with the more costly / less powerful version rather than the all-out power fantasy version first

If I remember correctly, Wendy in current state is a product of simple "rollback" of "glass cannon" mechanic to old day-night mechanic, cancelling feature of damage decrease with increase of targets amount, addition of quite simple in design petal debuff, potions staying the same, new Abigail flower and summoning-desummoning mechanic staying the same, simple tweaks to list of entities Abigail attacks in soothed and riled up state and small QoL to summoning/desummoning mechanic (desummoming instead of killing Abi by hitting her). From all of this potions, new way of how Abigail flower works and 2 states of Abigail are true new and unique features present in both current and scrapped glass cannon version, but everything else is either "rollback" to previous version, or very simple and basic tweaks.

Wendy rework wasn't ideal either: distilled vengeance is useless (I'll call it "fireproof falsetto curse", even though song came later), it looks very much like devs forgot about beefalo case for Wendy, and they removed some downsides (low health of player requrement + AoE weakening) in favor of clear upsides (old Abi damage, petal debuff), but they didn't touch upsides of glass cannon version of Wendy. This is why, I think, we have what we have.

Despite that, I would be against removal of upsides that are remnant of glass cannon Wendy since they are what made Wendy fun to play for me (micromanaging Abigail).

Wolfgang's reworked version, on the other hand, didn't have much to work with in the first place (small amount of unique features and aspects, in contrast to Wendy and Abigail), and pre-rework version didn't have much features either (design was very simple, yet still had more debth), it seems like they couldn't just partially rollback him with situation improvement as a result. Wolfgang needed true rework of rework, from scratch.

[Dr. Safety]

I played a bit of Wolfgang, although nothing really late game so take everything I say with a grain of salt. The issue that I run into is that the nature of his upsides are working against his upsides. The raid bosses are okay as Wolfgang since you can just use a gym station before going and try your best to not lose mightiness during the fight, but other than that, he has nothing.

More often than not, the fights in this game are surprises that you just have to be ready to drop everything you are doing and take them on (treeguards spawning, hound attacks, seasonal bosses, etc.) I can't tell you how many times I was caught with my pants down as wimpy Wolfgang just because of unfortunate timing. It's not practical to run back to a gym station, so you are at the mercy of your dumbbells. Even the gembell can take awhile to get pumped up. The obvious solution to this would be to not get to wimpy form, which would be fine if the dumbbells were just overall better, or there was some practical way to slow the mightiness drain.

Fixing Wolfgang won't be easy since the devs are pretty set on keeping him as is, which I honestly don't mind. I like the idea of a mightiness meter and working out to get fit, I'm just not a fan of how impractical it is to manage it for typical fighting scenarios. I only have a couple thoughts on changes that might help him, but as I said, I did not play him nearly as much as some of you so feel free to disregard these ideas.

1. Give him something better than the gembell (either giving the gembell stats to a marble dumbbell while buffing the gembell, or making a thulecite dumbbell of some kind?) His "on the go" exercise items are just not good. As people stated above, Wolfgang standing around lifting weights while the team waits for him to finish to fight pretty much negates the advantage he has in fights

2. Give him some practical way to slow the drain of mightiness while traveling. Carrying statues around and not losing mightiness is cool, but it doesn't really do much. Maybe if Wolfgang is holding a dumbbell he won't lose mightiness?
He could be one of these people:

That's all I can think of. I really like Wolfgang's character, but he has a lot of issues right now

[abrocator]

1 hour ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

To be fair, server pickings-wise, Wendy (and Wigfrid) always were, are and I reckon will remain popular - always 1st (and 2nd place).

The funny thing is that one of Zark’s arguments for nerfing Wolfgang was so that people would have a reason to pick other characters.  Which is an argument that only makes sense if DST was an alpha/beta game that few people played at this point—Wolfgang isn’t the top pick, and moreover seems to only be somewhere in the middle of the roster with regards to popularity (Edit: middle of the roster to my recollection).  (In the thread from December some people like Guille made this counter-argument; I am trusting their numbers.)

Going by that logic Wendy would be the obvious character to nerf.  (Disclaimer: abricator does not endorse the nerfing of any character; just making a point.)

30 minutes ago, Dr. Safety said:

More often than not, the fights in this game are surprises that you just have to be ready to drop everything you are doing and take them on (treeguards spawning, hound attacks, seasonal bosses, etc.)

It really is ridiculous that one of the combat specialists is just inherently bad at surprise fights.  Hound wave incoming?  Oh shoot, my mightiness is at zero because I was trying to manage my time and thus didn’t work out since I was planning on only collecting logs today.

[CactusCompanion]

definitely liked it, i didnt like his playstyle at all before but i found his new one to be a lot more fun

the dumbbell stuff doesnt really get in the way because i only have to use it when i would be standing around anyways, like standing around the campfire or waiting for something to cook, or on a boat

though i do think the changes to wimpy form are kiiiinda lame, it was cooler for there to actually be an advantage of sorts to being wimpy

[00petar00]

7 minutes ago, abrocator said:

The funny thing is that one of Zark’s arguments for nerfing Wolfgang was so that people would have a reason to pick other characters.  Which is an argument that only makes sense if DST was an alpha/beta game that few people played at this point—Wolfgang isn’t the top pick, and moreover seems to only be somewhere in the middle of the roster with regards to popularity.  (In the thread from December some people like Guille made this counter-argument; I am trusting their numbers.)

Going by that logic Wendy would be the obvious character to nerf.  (Disclaimer: abricator does not endorse the nerfing of any character; just making a point.)

There's really no reason to nerf any characters, wolfgang before the rework was mostly good for solo fights, many character perks are actually much more useful in a team.

What i wanted to see from his rework was to make him more fun and unique and not just a stat check character and if we ignore mightiness, i quite like the other changes made to him, i am a hoarder and using piggyback without speed penalty would be great if only he was able to keep his mightiness easier.

[Dextops]

18 minutes ago, CactusCompanion said:

definitely liked it, i didnt like his playstyle at all before but i found his new one to be a lot more fun

how did his play style change at all?

[Mike23Ua]

8 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

There's really no reason to nerf any characters, wolfgang before the rework was mostly good for solo fights, many character perks are actually much more useful in a team.

What i wanted to see from his rework was to make him more fun and unique and not just a stat check character and if we ignore mightiness, i quite like the other changes made to him, i am a hoarder and using piggyback without speed penalty would be great if only he was able to keep his mightiness easier.

You can upkeep Mightiness by throwing Dumbells (stone or gold.. don’t throw Gembells unless A: Your an Idiot or B: You got a ton of purple Gems to waste.)

Throwing Dumbells also gets Wolfgang the newest food recipe easily

Bunny Stew 1 morsel + 3 Ice for 20 Hp Healing.

so in the following Image: Not only am I gaining Mightiness.. but I’m also stacking Bunny Stew.

for those sweet HP Heals.

Upkeeping Mightiness is only a problem for people who never had to stand still before.. also unless your just playing with your sound muted.. you will hear dogs barking way before they ever arrive giving you more then ample time to “buff up” to be mighty.

[CactusCompanion]

3 minutes ago, Dextops said:

how did his play style change at all?

maybe playstyle isnt the right word

i just didnt particularly care for his trait of damage scaling and speed increasing with fuller hunger and always feeling like i gotta keep it up high

but that's just me, i never really was much of one to be a fighter of the camp so i might not be the best to give my opinion on it

[Gi-Go]

I hate this rework, and everything about it. I hate the speed removal for some kinda false balance idea. I hate new meter that has to be maintained and has zero gameplay meaning behind its existence. I hate idle no-action way its refilled. I hate that for some stupid reason dumbbells stop working properly once you get slightly above mighty threshold. I hate that you have to stay at full hunger constantly by eating small trash, instead of using crockpot food when your hunger gets low like a normal person. I hate how enormous and out of place gym is, especially when it's loaded with boss statues. I hate that it works awfully with potatoe sacks, and is a very pointless thing to have regardless of the weights you use. I hate that gembells are the best way to get mighty, and are also very cheap - meaning Wolfgang has only one and only proper way to restore mightiness. I hate that klei "listened" and made it possble to get mightiness by hitting things with dumbbells, and thought that them breaking in 10 hits is a nice payoff. I hate how klei balance range weapons or rather how they do not. All range weapons suck hard in this game and gembells were balanced around boomerang of all things. I hate that all of Wolfgang perks only work when he is mighty, yet most of them make you regret you wasted time maintaining mightiness. I hate that mighty Wolfgang has insulation bonus, I don't need this garbage, all it does - makes me take more overheat damage on klaus and a lot more at dragonfly. 

Where is the "fudge go back" button? 

[MondayNight]

3 minutes ago, Dextops said:

how did his play style change at all?

Is more tedious, more static-centered. Now you need to sit still a lot more (and watch idle animations for Dumb-bells or a simple clicking game for Gym) - for people sitting mostly in one place and/or still probably is a nice change. For old, dynamic, Wolfgang players? Not at all. Also, coupled with Gym workout (you can choose and build them all over map for additional material costs), Wolf now eats Food and.. Rocks/Gold/Gems (when using said bells, even more if one chooses to throw them for whatever reasons at mobs).

[00petar00]

9 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

You can upkeep Mightiness by throwing Dumbells (stone or gold.. don’t throw Gembells unless A: Your an Idiot or B: You got a ton of purple Gems to waste.)

Throwing Dumbells also gets Wolfgang the newest food recipe easily

Bunny Stew 1 morsel + 3 Ice for 20 Hp Healing.

so in the following Image: Not only am I gaining Mightiness.. but I’m also stacking Bunny Stew.

for those sweet HP Heals.

Upkeeping Mightiness is only a problem for people who never had to stand still before.. also unless your just playing with your sound muted.. you will hear dogs barking way before they ever arrive giving you more then ample time to “buff up” to be mighty.

There's really no excuse to be forced to stand still, and all the healing i need in the early game i get from butterflies, which isn't a lot since i can kite everything and throwing dumbbells is more of a joke.

How is it fun for anyone to not do anything and watch animations and how is it a good game design? I don't stand still for a second in this game unless i pause and need to go afk. The point time is a resource and you can always do something even in winter at your base, there's limitless possibilities on what you can be doing to progress.

[Dextops]

Just now, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

Is more tedious, more static-centered. Now you need to sit still a lot more (and watch idle animations for Dumb-bells or a simple clicking game for Gym) - for people sitting mostly in one place and/or still probably is a nice change. For old, dynamic, Wolfgang players? Not at all. Also, coupled with Gym workout (you can choose and build them all over map for additional material costs), Wolf now eats Food and.. Rocks/Gold/Gems (when using said bells, even more if one chooses to throw them for whatever reasons at mobs).

this is all true but this doesn't change his play style he is still just a boss rusher which is eh because anyone can rush bosses effectively 

[abrocator]

3 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Upkeeping Mightiness is only a problem for people who never had to stand still before..

Well yeah… people who are efficient.  The rework is a problem for them.  I’m not a very efficient player but I think efficiency should be rewarded.  I think that people who made six crockpots instead of two so that they didn’t have to idle while their food was getting made should be rewarded for that.  They shouldn’t have to spend the same time on stuff as the people who made two crockpots because they have to pay the exercise tax.

3 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

also unless your just playing with your sound muted.. you will hear dogs barking way before they ever arrive giving you more then ample time to “buff up” to be mighty.

Maybe I’ll test that. Thanks.

[Yuuko]

32 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

You can upkeep Mightiness by throwing Dumbells (stone or gold.. don’t throw Gembells unless A: Your an Idiot or B: You got a ton of purple Gems to waste.)

Throwing Dumbells also gets Wolfgang the newest food recipe easily

Bunny Stew 1 morsel + 3 Ice for 20 Hp Healing.

 

Upkeeping Mightiness is only a problem for people who never had to stand still before.. also unless your just playing with your sound muted.. you will hear dogs barking way before they ever arrive giving you more then ample time to “buff up” to be mighty.

Throwing any dumbbell is a bad idea.  The amount of mighty gains you get from stone and gold in mighty form is negligible.  You get no more than you do for simply lifting it once, but you waste a large chunk of the durability.

Bunny Stew is a cool new dish but it is by no means important.  You can do butterfly wings without wasting any gear durability - or if you want, buttermuffins which don't need ice / winter, you can just throw in veg which with kelp / stonefruits is super ez.  Potato are common, grow every season but summer and cooked restore 20 health each no recipe required...  they also grow balanced with toma so you can plant 4 and 4 and get crop + seed (self sustaining) with literally no effort but plant and repeat... no water, no nutrients, no tending - auto sustain 1 crop + seed each harvest.
also each potato on Wolfgang is almost a meatball of hunger in addition to its healing, for how ez they are to grow idk why somneone wouldn't...

Standing still IS a problem - when I play I am basically always doing something and standing still isn't on the list.  Even when I plant a square of crops and I know in about half a day they'll need tending again I'm not sitting around waiting for them to grow.

[MondayNight]

1 hour ago, Dextops said:

this is all true but this doesn't change his play style he is still just a boss rusher which is eh because anyone can rush bosses effectively 

That was his niche. Still is, but less efficient from swiftness pov. However more reliable for constant 2x damage IF you can maintain Mighty. With Rock and Gold is pretty atrocious to go from 0 to full. And in long boss fights (CK, CC, Misery) maintaining it is a drag.

[marioespinho]

I don't know. All i waste while doing CC is 20/30 seconds for might regain. I top up twice with a gembell when Wolfgang is about to lose mighty throughout the entire fight, and i suck at boss killing.