Diseases need a new difficulty option

[crazz2323]

This game is fantastic and you all are doing a great job with it. I have recommended it to a number of friends who have all purchased it. The only main suggestion I have is in regards that the diseases portion of the game is very weak. I find little use for medical and as you see in many user created tutorials, it is suggested that diseases are a minor nuisance and can be mostly ignored. 

I am requesting a new option be added for diseases that would allow for a more challenging game. I am requesting an option because not everyone would want these changes forced upon them. However, the same goes for the other end, it is not fair to expect those that would like the challenge to have to play with no other option but a weak disease system (even with the diseases difficulty increasing chances to catch a disease maxed). Speak up in this post if you agree! Support this post so the devs will consider it.

A fantastic mod by Skyrunner called Diseases Restored puts many of the needed changes back into the game. For me, the game is much less challenging without diseases being a more vital concern for a colony. Below are the changes the mod does. Something similar needs to be part of the base game as an option you could choose when creating a new game. Maybe a realistic disease option. I get that not everything would necessarily be duplicated here but I hope you all agree that Diseases do need an overhaul. Mod devs come and go, so relying on the person who created the mod to keep updating his mod is unrealistic.

The food poisoning, vomiting, calorie loss, and stress level increase is what really adds to some of the games challenges. It forces you to pay attention to sanitation, proper placement of sinks and utilize the medical line.

Common

• Diseases tend to make dupes stressed
• A brand-new Germ Integration system makes dupes that get exposed to more germs more likely to get sick. A dozen Food Poisoning germs aren't going to hurt, but exposure to a couple thousand is definitely going to get Liam sick.
• Some diseases now have Symptoms, cured by different methods. Check the table in the preview!

Food poisoning

• Causes new Symptom "Vomiting"
• Bathroom use speed greatly decreased (20% -> 100%)
• Curative Tablet increases recovery speed by 500% instead of instantly curing

Food poisoning symptom: Vomiting

• Dupe vomits germy Polluted Water every 120s
• Loses 500 kcal every vomit
• -50% stamina per cycle
• Cured with a Curative Tablet

Slimelung

• Now causes Symptom "Lethal"
• Now causes Symptom "Coughing", instead of directly causing coughing
• Lasts 6 cycles (up from 4)
• Medical Pack increases recovery speed by 200% instead of instantly curing

Slimelung symptom: Lethal

• Dupe dies after 6 cycles
• Cured with Medical Pack

Slimelung symptom: Coughing

• Coughing every 20s that spreads Slimelung germs
• Cured with Curative Tablet

Ailment changes

• Scalding: The hotter it is, the more it hurts! (+ 1 damage per second per 5 C, meaning lava is liable to instantly incapitate a dupe that ventures into it)
• Frostbite: A cold equivalent to Scalding! Don't touch anything that's too cold (under -20 C) or you'll take similar damage to scalding-hot things.

Germ spread

• Farming: Feed plants germy water, get germy crops. One more reason not to feed sieved bathroom water into your coveted Bristle Berry farm. (The other reason being that it's gross.)
• Plumbing: Dupes that wash their hands with germy water in Sinks or Showers will get some of the germs on them. Make sure to wash with clean water.
• Zombie Spores: These hardy spores can spread through solids, though they still slowly die off in them. That tile of Igneous Rock isn't going to keep you safe from the wrath of the Sporechids.

 

[Yobbo]

I agree with pretty much all of this. To add one: i find it weird that mopping up germy water also doesn't get germs on the dupe.

I do think plants should keep their purification abilities however. If disease were more prevalent, this would keep them as a useful purification option. It's also a real-life function of plants.

[WhatTheDuck]

Does the mod run with Spaced Out? My games crashed after a few minutes with DLC active.

[Dovahkick]

Diseases were indeed more troublesome before they got nerfed. But even before it were nerfed, there weren't many ways for dupes to have germs on themselves. Of course, using germ filled water to make food from the Microbe Musher, grabbing germ covered materials, using the toilet, using germ-covered buildings, climbing germ covered ladders, breathing germ filled oxygen/polluted oxygen, all of those little things are going to make dupes sick, and so far those are to my knowledge the only ways for dupes to catch diseases.

Cleaning germ filled liquids, stepping in a puddle or being submerged in germ filled liquids, using the shower/decontamination shower or the sink with germ filled water, walking on germ covered tiles, these should also spread germs on the dupes. Germy liquids and dropped items should also contaminate the tiles they are touching.

I also agree that being sick should increase stress a little, since stress is also very easy to manage if one doesn't abuse too much of the skill points and makes pretty rooms which grant morale bonuses and have high quality foods.

When it comes to the decontamination of liquids or items, there are a couple of methods, but they are rather impractical to implement IMO. One can heat up or cool down the liquids/items beyond the tolerable temperature of the germs (above 40°C or bellow 0°C for food poisoning), but in the case of water, it can be rather troublesome to heat/cool the water if it's in a large reservoir, since the temperature will transfer to its surounding area and may make some plants wither if piped through them (Pincha Pepper Plants being an exception for hot P.water, but can't tolerate temperate temperatures), or simply freeze the water in the reservoir, or even have pipes break due to temperatures too low (Sleet Wheats are challenging since they only tolerate temperatures bellow 5°C).

Chlorine is the best when it comes to decontamination, since one doesn't need to manage temperatures and kills all the germs in one cycle (bonus if the item is hot/cold). Making good use of it while keeping it contained however, would require a well planned infrastructure, especially for decontaminating water (yes, you can decontaminate water with chlorine). But it's a bit complicated to explain how the infrastructure can be made, so have this link instead https://oxygennotincluded.fandom.com/wiki/Guide/Disinfect_Food_Poisoning.

[pether]

Klei is currently working on the DLC and this doesn't seem to be a part of it.

But yeah, after the DLC release this should be one of the major topics to consider for them

[goboking]

If you ignore food, your dupes starve.  If you ignore oxygen, they suffocate.  If you ignore heat, your colony cooks.  But if you ignore diseases your dupes only experience a brief minor inconvenience.  That's it.  There's no need for a dedicated doctor or a hospital because there's no need to worry about germs.

I do understand why they nerfed the old system.  I'm sure dealing with food poisoning was harsh for a new player trying to grasp the basics.  But the nerf didn't have to be so complete.  They could have used the current, weaker iteration of germs in No Sweat Mode and kept the old, harsher germs in Survival Mode.  Granted, balancing and maintaining two separate versions would have meant more work for them, but the game would have been better for it.

If they ever do give germs another pass, I hope they bring the old immunity system back.  The current system is too binary; your dupes are either sick or they're not.  The old system was much more fluid.  I liked food poisoning when it induced vomiting.  I liked slimelung when it necessitated quarantine and medical treatment.  And I would have LOVED zombie spores that zombified our dupes, as datamined animations suggest might have been the intent.

Credit: @watermelen671 for the datamined assets.

[Spoonwood]

Yeah, I don't know.  I mean, suppose you start your colony.  After setting up basic things in your starting biome, on say Terra, you go into the nearest caustic biome and grab at least one drecko.  If not on Terra, still find your nearest caustic/jungle biome.  Verdante and Oassise would be the most challenging asteroid in this repsect, since the caustic biomes need abyssalite mining to get to.  Shear the drecko.  Get it to reproduce.  Maybe find some more dreckos. Later get some thimble reed (if it exists on your map).

Then get atmosuit docks up and waterlock your entire starting biome outside your atmosuit checkpoint, so that germs never come into your starting area, and when dupes venture into your starting area.  Slimelung?  Who cares if it's deadly if duplicants get it, you have atmosuits.  How will they get it?  Remember, it doesn't exist on some asteroids also, or only because of rare morbs.  Zombiespores?  Probably not too much of a problem, if one at all.  Maybe food poisoning would bother you, but that can probably get resolved.  Storing food in chlorine can work if you water lock it and duplicants wear atmosuits most of the time *or* if it's carbon dioxide locked to the side of a carbon pit at the bottom of your base (duplicants always breathe out carbon dioxide, so unless you're skimming off carbon dioxide or throwing water down there for some unknown reason, a carbon dioxide lock for chlorine shouldn't break, and even if it does break, some chlorine in your base isn't too big of a deal).

So, even with such proposed changes, I'm not seeing how, *if* you play carefully enough, that disease would become an issue.  No need for medicine it seems for a smart careful player, even with more deadly diseases.  You would have to deliberately have to avoid using atmosuits to fully feel the effects of such a system, I think.  Is that what you want?

Or if atmosuits got tweaked so that disease could spread through them, well, I think that would make players who don't want atmosuits nerfed unhappy.



 

[crazz2323]

On 10/11/2021 at 9:49 AM, WhatTheDuck said:

Does the mod run with Spaced Out? My games crashed after a few minutes with DLC active.

Yes, the mod works with the latest version of Spaced Out. 

With diseases affecting stress, it is a chain reaction affecting production, which affects food and water (if it becomes contaminated) which all can really bring down an earlier base if not managed early. Yes, the diseases can be managed with proper sanitation and some curative tablets on hand however, one mistake can let in the germs. Atmo suits and other high tech solutions mid to later game would help nullify the risk of diseases but that seems like a normal progression in reality, you get better tech, more primitive issues become less of a concern. It really affects early game start ups the most, adding the extra challenge and forcing you to mind sanitation. I just want it as an option, would have been better if they left the old system as an togglable option instead of an overall nerf. Been playing ONI the whole time with the mod and I can tell you the balance works well. Without it, game starts, even on the hardest settings, are too easy. I do hope they take another look at diseases.

[KonfigSys]

I am from another camp. I do not want the old disease system to come back; however, I think it is good that you suggested it as an option which can be turned off and on.

Clearly some players like gems killing dupes and the whole population could be at the risk.

The problem (with the old disease system) was that when you start the game, you do not have anything to combat the diseases (and the colony could die before you reach any meaningful progress), when you are at the late stage and have everything (atmosuits, medicine), diseases do not mean much (just a small inconvenience; the same as atmosuit repairing which I keep off - thanks for the option available). 

[Sasza22]

Ok i was thinking of making a new thread but i guess i can fit my feelings here rather than bloating the forum with more similar threads.

My issue with the system is that it`s skippable and irrelevant. Diseases heal over time and don`t cause too much issues. But should they? They are most dangerous earlygame when you got other things to worry about like food, oxygen and morale. All those things slow you down and force to establish systems to take care of those things. Diseases do the same except you can ignore them for the most part. Buffing them would just add to earlygame annoyances. Disease is frustrating to deal with and requires proper tech to fight off.

So what would i do? Depends on the disease:

Food poisoning is mostly fine. Does what it is meant to do. Slows you a bit but doesn`t lose you the game. One thing i`d change is add a chance to extend the duration if the dupe keep getting exposed to germs (just roll a chance to extend the disease on wake up if dupe keeps eating germed stuff). I`d even add a few curative pills to the starting ration box or maybe the random lockers.

Slimelung should be a disease that spreads easily but isn`t deadly. I`d make the speed debuff more relevant though. Instead of losing a flat value make it reduce the overal speed by 1/3. This way earlygame it wouldn`t be so crippling and late game would be more annoying. Nobody likes slow dupes. Untreated should have a chance to extend or get severe slowing down by 50% instead. No deaths though.

Zombie spores are in a weird spot as they are only an issue when you are extremely careless. I`d make sure sporechids spawn close to oil wells so it`s harder to get rid of them. Instead of a huge stat reduction i`d make them cause narcoleptia. Dupes falling asleep everywhere would be problematic. Infected dupes should spread spores around themselves and should cause high negative decor around themselves as they look zombiefied.

Hypothermia should last until the dupe`s temperature normalizes (similarly to how sunburn doesn`t go away until dupe is in darkness). But should be treatable. Hot pepper pills (made out of pincha peppernuts) should alleviate hypothermia and provide a passive heat effect for the dupe. This would make it less frustrating to build stuff in water.

Similarly heat stroke would be treatable and only go away when the dupe cools down. Since this one is less common the cure would be ice packs applied on the medical bed (to give this building more uses than just treating slimelung).

Stingy eyes should go away after using a shower.

Sunburn should have a special lotion to cure faster.

Regular wounds should have bandages(reed fiber) to cure faster and enable regaining hp outside triage cots. Also painkiller pills could remove the symptoms for 1 cycle (without actually healing the dupe).

Finally radiation sickness should be treated using salt instead of coal (it`s boring that all medicine requires coal). And radiation usually isn`t an issue until later in the game.

As for the advanced medical station i think it would be cool if we could vaccinate dupes. This would give them immunity for the particualr disease but the vaccine should be hard to produce. Something like the shinebug egg recipie. Maybe different morph eggs for different diseases.

[Slightquills]

I don't see the above ideas as solutions to making doctors and diseases more interesting or relevant.

I am kind of a moderate I suppose. I certain do NOT like the idea of dupes dying so early into a game, because I have enough to worry about.

- Medical rooms take up too much space and require too many resources for the "benefit" they produce. I am fine with their being a single room with a medical bed for each dupe. The current iteration requires multiple rooms as I recall. Not to mention there are multiple stations as you upgrade the tech and I feel that's too much. Maybe a 'Medical Station' and 'Hospital Beds' (like the triage cot) combo for a medical ward should be enough.

- Adding conditions that aren't lethal might be fun for everyone too. An example might include a new trait of insomnia, and letting doctor dupes make sleep aids. Also, I like the idea of doctors being able to make and apply bandages made from reed fiber.

- A 'Decontamination Station' (similar to a shower but uses chlorine gas) would be a cool way to prevent germs from spreading, and maybe have that as a high tier doctor required building could be cool. Maybe slime could be a byproduct of that even.

- A germ eating critter would be super cool too. We have a lot of critters that produce germs why not have a critter that eats only germs?