Ceos Posted August 23, 2021 Share Posted August 23, 2021 In trying to create better oxygen production in tight spaces I turned to Morbs. Up until I spawned them in sandbox during builds I had only ever seen morbs as as a nuisance. Early in my ONI playing one spoiled a vacuum iron tamer and nearly killed a dupe so I deemed them unclean and unneeded. Oh how I have seen the error of my ways (in sandbox at least... have yet to implement a morb build in the "real" game). With that said though their behavior puzzled me. I had read the excellent thread on Morb: everything you need to know about it but the production numbers kept seeming random and off from what @SamLogan suggested. I am not sure if it is universal but I think I found out why my dupes kept suffocating in tests there is another significant variable - game speed. This might be common knowledge but in case it is not here are my findings to add to the Morb knowledge. Using a very similar system to the previous work described above I set up a number of test cells with a gas tank above. I set up a notification when any of them got full to pause the game so I could go away while the test ran. Pumps ran at above 700 to prevent overpressure (1000) or vacuum both of which cause no PO2 production. The chambers used were all to test spaceship builds so are quite confined. Here are the results: grams / second / morb Speed 5 wide 4 wide 3 wide 3 wide w/step 4 symetric 1x 15.6 13.5 12.1 11.4 14.2 2x 10.7 9.4 8.8 8.2 9.9 3x 8.3 8.1 7.1 6.7 7.9 10x 3.8 3.6 3.0 3.1 3.6 Size the morb farm for the gas needed *and* the speed you want to play at. From my tests speed makes as large of a difference as cage size. -Ceos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverbluep Posted August 23, 2021 Share Posted August 23, 2021 This is great; was looking for something like this. Unfortunate that game speed effects production so much. What about 5 wide symmetric? (With a mini pump?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coolthulhu Posted August 23, 2021 Share Posted August 23, 2021 1 hour ago, Ceos said: Size the morb farm for the gas needed *and* the speed you want to play at. From my tests speed makes as large of a difference as cage size. Looks like another case of that AI "optimization" thing being harmful to gameplay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceos Posted August 23, 2021 Author Share Posted August 23, 2021 9 hours ago, silverbluep said: What about 5 wide symmetric? (With a mini pump?) I think that within the errors of testing it should not matter (I didn't clear the pipes, or spawn everything exactly the same time, and put a constant 700 in starting so the big rooms had more gas to begin with). I originally was using small pumps but it is not enough to keep up with the 5x morbs or more importantly keep up with the dupes consumption (dupes need 130g/s PO2 and I was looking for a 2 dupe system). The main issue is that the big pump can create local vacuum (if sensor is too low) and the morbs won't produce, or they can overproduce and the gas cant flow fast enough and you get local "overpressure." From looking at the gasses while it was running I don't think either was an issue so I would expect them to be the same. I am happy to send you the file if you want to do more experiments... the more ONI science the better! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverbluep Posted August 23, 2021 Share Posted August 23, 2021 47 minutes ago, Ceos said: I think that within the errors of testing it should not matter (I didn't clear the pipes, or spawn everything exactly the same time, and put a constant 700 in starting so the big rooms had more gas to begin with). I originally was using small pumps but it is not enough to keep up with the 5x morbs or more importantly keep up with the dupes consumption (dupes need 130g/s PO2 and I was looking for a 2 dupe system). The main issue is that the big pump can create local vacuum (if sensor is too low) and the morbs won't produce, or they can overproduce and the gas cant flow fast enough and you get local "overpressure." From looking at the gasses while it was running I don't think either was an issue so I would expect them to be the same. I am happy to send you the file if you want to do more experiments... the more ONI science the better! I would love to up on the science! However I'm unable to really play the game atm; i'm down to my netbook and waiting for steam deck to be able to play. So just egging others to do research for me in the meantime. My thinking with a small pump is less vacuum; and it sucks from the same 4/5 sucking grid that the large pump has; while having one less tile in the vertical dimension. Pipe rates obviously are not a coimncern with such a low number of morbs. The symmetric build seems to outperform by 10% so was thinking if this could transfer to the superior 5 tile build. I think good news is there is not much difference between speed 2 and 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceos Posted August 23, 2021 Author Share Posted August 23, 2021 23 minutes ago, silverbluep said: The symmetric build seems to outperform by 10% so was thinking if this could transfer to the superior 5 tile build. At 1x the symmetrical does seem better... interestingly though at 3x and 10x they really are probably the same (I typically try to run 3x most if the time). I think you are correct... at higher production (low speed) I bet it is overpressurizing in the corners. 100% agree smaller pump or more symmetrical would improve production! I wonder if I set the pressure threshold a bit lower if it would fix that without vacuum appearing. Also, now that you bring it up I wonder if there are scale-up issues as I try to go a full 500g/s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psusi Posted August 23, 2021 Share Posted August 23, 2021 When the game bogs down, it sacrifices mob AI to keep the rest of the game running faster. This can cause critters to starve to death because they can't figure out to go eat, or drown because they can't figure out to move out of liquid, or in your case, morbs not to move over and fart. The faster you try to run the game, the more mob AI lags. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurgel Posted August 23, 2021 Share Posted August 23, 2021 Now, it would be interesting to see if CPU speed also is a factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghkbrew Posted August 24, 2021 Share Posted August 24, 2021 On 8/22/2021 at 10:27 PM, Ceos said: Size the morb farm for the gas needed *and* the speed you want to play at. It worse than that. Increasing the number of morbs has an equivalent effect as increasing game speed: more morbs will cause more AI lag which will decrease the per-morb production. This causes diminishing returns which make it basically impossible (in my testing) to support a substantial number of dupes on morb O2. I didn't test it, but I would bet that base complexity, in general, will have similar effects. i.e. morbs will produce a lot less pO2 in a late game base than a fresh asteroid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceos Posted August 25, 2021 Author Share Posted August 25, 2021 On 8/24/2021 at 3:06 AM, ghkbrew said: I didn't test it, but I would bet that base complexity, in general, will have similar effects. i.e. morbs will produce a lot less pO2 in a late game base than a fresh asteroid. And you are correct. Sigh my dreams of infinite dupes will just have to wait for infinitely powerful computers to be invented. I spawned a bunch of shine bugs in space to make the worst case pathing and annoy my CPU. Sure enough: grams / second / morb Speed 5 wide 4 wide 3 wide 3 wide w/step 4 symetric 1x 15.6 13.5 12.1 11.4 14.2 2x 10.7 9.4 8.8 8.2 9.9 3x 8.3 8.1 7.1 6.7 7.9 10x 3.8 3.6 3.0 3.1 3.6 1x (102 shine) 12.5 11.4 9.6 9.9 11.5 1x (528 shine) 4.4 4.1 3.5 3.5 4.1 Looks like as complexity goes up production goes way down as you predicted. Oh well, at least I got this shot during testing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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