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Balance suggestion for no teleporter setting


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I've been tinkering around with a playthrough without teleporters and I think there's at least one change I would suggest. I think the Oily planetoid in spaced out should be moved slightly closer to the starting planetoid. With the teleporter the distance doesn't matter but without the teleporter your only real option for early space travel is the Radiation planetoid.

This is the amount of the map you can reveal from the starting planetoid. With the Oily planetoid just out of reach of the telescope.

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Yeah this creates a problem. You need oil to make space research so that you can ge a bigger command module to fit a telescope in or to make the telescope module. Without the planetoid being revealed there is no way to get there despite the CO2 rocket being capable of getting there. Either it needs to be closer or be revealed somehow beforehand.

Maybe the telescope could be able to reveal planetoids when just their orbit is in their range. It would be grayed out and not show resources but you could land on it if you get a rocket in orbit.

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7 minutes ago, Sasza22 said:

Yeah this creates a problem. You need oil to make space research so that you can ge a bigger command module to fit a telescope in or to make the telescope module. Without the planetoid being revealed there is no way to get there despite the CO2 rocket being capable of getting there. Either it needs to be closer or be revealed somehow beforehand.

Maybe the telescope could be able to reveal planetoids when just their orbit is in their range. It would be grayed out and not show resources but you could land on it if you get a rocket in orbit.

Personally I think it should be the same distance as the radiation planetoid so there is a choice the player makes. Do I need uranium for large radiation or do I need oil for petrol and plastic. Also another reason I think it should be closer or the same distance as the radiation one is because without the teleporters you will constantly be shipping water to the oily planetoid and shipping back oil, petrol, or plastic.  You can get plastic through dreckos on most (not sure if all) the starting planetoids but then if that's the only way it is kind of annoying in my opinion.

I get that you can make it to a planetoid that far with co2 in a one way trip but it can be a gamble. If you make one mistake that dupe is dead and you have to start all over with another rocket.

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27 minutes ago, Sasza22 said:

Yeah this creates a problem. You need oil to make space research so that you can ge a bigger command module to fit a telescope in or to make the telescope module. Without the planetoid being revealed there is no way to get there despite the CO2 rocket being capable of getting there. Either it needs to be closer or be revealed somehow beforehand.

Maybe the telescope could be able to reveal planetoids when just their orbit is in their range. It would be grayed out and not show resources but you could land on it if you get a rocket in orbit.

Just a little oil information about the terra dlc classic map, it has lots of oil reservoirs at the bottom :p Its soooo awesome ! :afro:

image.thumb.png.8ca55c2132bf78b2329adada0ea986a8.png

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27 minutes ago, Sasza22 said:

Maybe the telescope could be able to reveal planetoids when just their orbit is in their range. It would be grayed out and not show resources but you could land on it if you get a rocket in orbit.

Or teleporter can be replaced with an 'archive' device, when activated it would reveal small part of the map.

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It is somehow funny how a few weeks ago the only issue with the teleporter was that one could not opt to play without it.

Now, after some time, when KLEI added this highly requested option, the issue is you cannot teleport around if you play without it.

:D

Yeah, I know that those suggestions and feedback come from different people, but still - the LOL remains :D

About the topic and the balance issue - I think we must treat "no teleport" option as "play on hard mode". There is no need to relocate planets or anything. Let's leave it as is and let it be a challenge for people starving for those. And if you think that play mode is impossible to play on - thats even better, challenges should be difficult, but nobody forces you or me to play with this option toogled.

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4 hours ago, pether said:

It is somehow funny how a few weeks ago the only issue with the teleporter was that one could not opt to play without it.

Now, after some time, when KLEI added this highly requested option, the issue is you cannot teleport around if you play without it.

:D

Yeah, I know that those suggestions and feedback come from different people, but still - the LOL remains :D

About the topic and the balance issue - I think we must treat "no teleport" option as "play on hard mode". There is no need to relocate planets or anything. Let's leave it as is and let it be a challenge for people starving for those. And if you think that play mode is impossible to play on - thats even better, challenges should be difficult, but nobody forces you or me to play with this option toogled.

Part of the reason I prefer more in the direction of balancing it is because in the classic mode the impact of not having the teleporter is minimal. It's not designed with the teleporter as a core system. Where as the spaced out version it is. The reason I personally wanted to play with it in spaced out rather then classic is I actually prefer the smaller maps and less geysers. For me, the point of wanting to play without it isn't adding difficulty, it's because I disagree with its design entirely. I'm not going to go over it fully here as I have in other posts in the past. It's not about whether or not someone forces you to play with or without it.

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Lol on a side note I wondered if I could change this myself. So I snooped around the world files and found the settings. Not perfect but it works. Wish the two planetoids were on opposite sides of the starting one but eh I'll take it.

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image.thumb.png.e649c01a3206feb3cd487dd6e3cf9a4c.png

 

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There is also the option of ranching glossy dreckos for plastic and doing space research, so we do have alternatives even without oil to unlock other engine types. I am unsure about this, but so far, do we have access to dreckos on all 3 starts if we include the starting asteroid and the radioactive asteroid (the one that can be reached with CO2 and sucrose engines)?

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5 minutes ago, NeoDeusMachina said:

There is also the option of ranching glossy dreckos for plastic and doing space research, so we do have alternatives even without oil to unlock other engine types. I am unsure about this, but so far, do we have access to dreckos on all 3 starts if we include the starting asteroid and the radioactive asteroid (the one that can be reached with CO2 and sucrose engines)?

Yeah I mentioned this in a previous reply. Part of my issue with this solution is that it then becomes the only option for plastic before then getting to the oil planetoid which is sort of a step backwards. So far, if I left the game as is, I see two possible work arounds within the game itself. Drecko Ranching to research more advanced rockets to then take a step backward to get petrol, or taking a dupe out in a awkward rocket 2 tiles and trying to use the telescope enough to reveal the tile and then doing a one way trip there. The reason I say "awkward" rocket is because it has no room for a toilet based on one of the previous replies where they showed the set up. Not really a fan of either of these which is why I made my original suggestion.

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2 minutes ago, crbd115 said:

Yeah I mentioned this in a previous reply. Part of my issue with this solution is that it then becomes the only option for plastic before then getting to the oil planetoid which is sort of a step backwards. So far, if I left the game as is, I see two possible work arounds within the game itself. Drecko Ranching to research more advanced rockets to then take a step backward to get petrol, or taking a dupe out in a awkward rocket 2 tiles and trying to use the telescope enough to reveal the tile and then doing a one way trip there. The reason I say "awkward" rocket is because it has no room for a toilet based on one of the previous replies where they showed the set up. Not really a fan of either of these which is why I made my original suggestion.

Yeah I agree the no toilet option is a bit awkward, although there might be a way to fit one if using a solid door instead of airflow tiles for the command module and micro managing the dupe? I can't test this atm.

On another note, by just putting the rocket in orbit with the telescope, it is 1 tile closer and can reveal the next planet without having to fly any closer, so there is no need for a toilet really. It can still be done at no fuel cost (at the time this post was written anyway). You can launch and land every cycle until that planet gets revealed and your dupe can use the normal toilets on the asteroid. Please correct me if I am wrong on this.

The drecko option is a totally legitimate and viable option, although some people might not like ranching and that is a valid opinion.

In any case, I have the impression that choosing the no teleporter option is meant to be more difficult and it seems like that is achieved. More difficult, but not impossible.

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7 minutes ago, NeoDeusMachina said:

In any case, I have the impression that choosing the no teleporter option is meant to be more difficult and it seems like that is achieved. More difficult, but not impossible.

Yes and no. It is more difficult in the sense that you actually have to ship water to the oil planetoid and ship resources back and also have a self sufficient planetoid similar to the radiation one. It's not really meant to be something (at least in my opinion which is why I'm making this post in the first place) where your gated by awkward gimmicks to get to something designed around early to mid game. If I play a classic world with no teleporter I can still get oil in a normal way. If I do it in spaced out I can't.

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1 hour ago, crbd115 said:

The reason I say "awkward" rocket is because it has no room for a toilet based on one of the previous replies where they showed the set up.

Sorry about that... You now can research the bigger spacefarer without plastic. My mistake... I haven't properly played a playthrough for a while (the latest testing updates) and forgot what is and isn't possible :lol: (* "Tech tree changes including adding new categories, moving buildings, and adjusting tier costs so they scale better" update 464793, meaning you only need radbolts for spacefarer -bigger- module and no plastic/orbital research)

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10 hours ago, crbd115 said:

Yes and no. It is more difficult in the sense that you actually have to ship water to the oil planetoid and ship resources back and also have a self sufficient planetoid similar to the radiation one. It's not really meant to be something (at least in my opinion which is why I'm making this post in the first place) where your gated by awkward gimmicks to get to something designed around early to mid game. If I play a classic world with no teleporter I can still get oil in a normal way. If I do it in spaced out I can't.

In the small dlc terra map, using the teleporter, I burnt petroleum and natural gas ( from oil refineries ), making pwater & plastic in the 2nd world - Everything happened in the 2nd teleport spawn world without using rocket cargo shipping. :p

Personally, I like the big terra map better, as it has the basic oil stuff at the bottom of the map.

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On 6/3/2021 at 2:12 AM, NeoDeusMachina said:

The drecko option is a totally legitimate and viable option, although some people might not like ranching and that is a valid opinion.

Also just realized that since I did a swamp start I have no mealwood until I access one of the other planetoids anyway.

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