Your ideas to make ONI - SURVIVAL GAME (relevant to Spaced Out + some my ideas)

[SuperUser13]

So guys, I have been playing ONI for some time and honestly except minibase mod there is not so many challenge.

Therefore couple suggestions (also seems not to be fixed/implemented in DLC so far) 

 

1. Medicine/illnesses/germs are still useless

The game havily relies on Morale, which makes sence, but you can completely ignore state of illnesses/deceases.

IMHO anti-germ solution should exists in same way as base cooling loops - manually disinfect which is good, same as using Ice makers , or using special items, chlorine gas, bleach, chlorine liquid to remove some specific germs for example, etc etc. 

Also curing deceases should be top priority, as sick dups may affect other dups.

2. Morale idea

If you think about it - Morale does not work like that in real life. Vomiting on low morale ? I think the biggest impact of low morale is SPREAD.

Why not make dups spread low morale if its above X%. To fix that - dups must gather on same room on ... kind of performance meeting, 1h/1cell in schedule.

If this can't be done, etc - dups with low morale can be kept away, therefore creating additional game mechanic of making separate entries to rooms, separate schedules, and so on.

Maybe even created separate minibases for dups who are filling bad at the time, to let them fix that.

On the other hand - low Morale CAN NOT spread on doctors, therefore can be treatable, and doctors could be a "must pick" on game start unlike totally ignored now

2.1. Morale sub-idea

So as a development of prev idea - you kind of know how it works in real life - having a great performer/smartest person, but not very friendly, etc.

So why not having a dups with start debuff morale + negative spread, but having a good stats and skills - may result in building a different small base, therefore from the start not creating a standard 3 cots, 3 tables, outhouse, etc - but making some more sofisticated designs. 

3. Too many resources

ONI was always different from ... say Don't Starve. You never have to survive. 

Which kind of... contradicts even game name OXYGEN NOT INCLUDED.

You missed to build oxygenerator - well you just save/load cycle before. 

Spent all Algae - pfff no sweat, there are plenty of other options, Morbs + deod-s, electrolyzer, some oxylite ore.

And now compare this approach to Minibase mod - where if you don't count every bit of resource you gonna have problems.

Solution: option to reduce resources AND have a in-game built notifications (partly done) which count amount of Iron left (say vanila terms, which is metal required to build rockets), and ores to make at least 1 atmo suit, etc etc, and so this built-in mechnism notifies where there is simply a point of no return and resources are delpeted. Same can be done for LAST critter of it's kind on a map, LAST %anything% required to go to space (e.g. total absence of gold, BUT presence of some  for oxylite

4. Options/Settings of complexity

are not reviced - they remained the same, and frankly do not make game any harder - just eat more, keep better morale - what about - more dmg from critters, faster/instant overload of wires, etc etc - but the most important - why do I have to set up this all for myself, is it not a point - to specifically say that this will be toughest survival experience, we tested this, there you go see if you can finish the game.

4.1. Save-load options/settings
The game is about SAVE/LOAD entirely - any mistake can be retracked, evey nuance replaied - why not have limited or absence of save/load.

To be frank - if steam turbine is set-up, or some peroleum boilers, volcano tamer etc etc - it's already a top tier understanding of a game, and design have been set-up in sendbox/debug, and so on.

Why mistakes in SURVIVAL game ARE NOT PUNISHED ?

Solution: save/loads can be granted in some places like Neural Vacillators - also this will make sence to progress through game/planets/discover. Sometimes even rush, like in Don't Starve - seeking good location to our base. Or add Save option/slot/device to list of choices in Printing Pod or add it as a building low tier - have some save options, medium tier - have 5more, top tier - have unlimited (which also could be sub-goal of game).

5. Volcanoes

Forgive me for real world comparisons but are the real world volcanos are perfectly calm, and wait to be dug out ? Does not look like.

Why not, again as an option, have a possibility to have volc/geys/vent to be auto-opened, acting and require THE MOST PRIORITY and attention. 

Something like this was experienced in vanila game in some planets, but... insulated tiles pretty much fix all the problems, still - they have to be researched, built, and some volcanoes can be somewhere on the map, therefore heat filter can be used as a tool to spot them, and compare temp rise/drop, so there you have another kind of gameplay at least on a big map - is tracking temp changes over time. 

 

Ok, I guess that's it. 

Many more things can be added, so... I hope ONI will get the touch of SURVIVAL game in the DLC, or later. Hope someone reads this from the team.

GL HF

 

[TuxSam123]

On 5/7/2021 at 6:21 AM, SuperUser13 said:

So guys, I have been playing ONI for some time and honestly except minibase mod there is not so many challenge.

Therefore couple suggestions (also seems not to be fixed/implemented in DLC so far)

 

Tweak the configurations of the game. There's absolutely no need to make the game harder than it is. It would drive away most people from it.

On 5/7/2021 at 6:21 AM, SuperUser13 said:

2. Morale idea

If you think about it - Morale does not work like that in real life. Vomiting on low morale ? I think the biggest impact of low morale is SPREAD.

Why not make dups spread low morale if its above X%. To fix that - dups must gather on same room on ... kind of performance meeting, 1h/1cell in schedule.

If this can't be done, etc - dups with low morale can be kept away, therefore creating additional game mechanic of making separate entries to rooms, separate schedules, and so on.

Maybe even created separate minibases for dups who are filling bad at the time, to let them fix that.

On the other hand - low Morale CAN NOT spread on doctors, therefore can be treatable, and doctors could be a "must pick" on game start unlike totally ignored now

2.1. Morale sub-idea

So as a development of prev idea - you kind of know how it works in real life - having a great performer/smartest person, but not very friendly, etc.

So why not having a dups with start debuff morale + negative spread, but having a good stats and skills - may result in building a different small base, therefore from the start not creating a standard 3 cots, 3 tables, outhouse, etc - but making some more sofisticated designs. 

Forgive me if I didn't understand, but this doesn't make sense. Why would low morale spread like a disease?

On 5/7/2021 at 6:21 AM, SuperUser13 said:

5. Volcanoes

Forgive me for real world comparisons but are the real world volcanos are perfectly calm, and wait to be dug out ? Does not look like.

Why not, again as an option, have a possibility to have volc/geys/vent to be auto-opened, acting and require THE MOST PRIORITY and attention. 

Something like this was experienced in vanila game in some planets, but... insulated tiles pretty much fix all the problems, still - they have to be researched, built, and some volcanoes can be somewhere on the map, therefore heat filter can be used as a tool to spot them, and compare temp rise/drop, so there you have another kind of gameplay at least on a big map - is tracking temp changes over time. 

 

ONI is not real life, so it's perfectly understandable if volcanoes don't work the same way there. Also, open volcanoes would destroy entire maps, rendering some of the asteroids unplayable. Don't you remember what happened when Tungsten volcanoes were exposed on the slime asteroid?

On 5/7/2021 at 6:21 AM, SuperUser13 said:

 

Why mistakes in SURVIVAL game ARE NOT PUNISHED ?

Solution: save/loads can be granted in some places like Neural Vacillators - also this will make sence to progress through game/planets/discover. Sometimes even rush, like in Don't Starve - seeking good location to our base. Or add Save option/slot/device to list of choices in Printing Pod or add it as a building low tier - have some save options, medium tier - have 5more, top tier - have unlimited (which also could be sub-goal of game).

 

I honestly didn't understand what you tried to write here. 

On 5/7/2021 at 6:21 AM, SuperUser13 said:

3. Too many resources

ONI was always different from ... say Don't Starve. You never have to survive. 

Which kind of... contradicts even game name OXYGEN NOT INCLUDED.

You missed to build oxygenerator - well you just save/load cycle before. 

Spent all Algae - pfff no sweat, there are plenty of other options, Morbs + deod-s, electrolyzer, some oxylite ore.

And now compare this approach to Minibase mod - where if you don't count every bit of resource you gonna have problems.

Solution: option to reduce resources AND have a in-game built notifications (partly done) which count amount of Iron left (say vanila terms, which is metal required to build rockets), and ores to make at least 1 atmo suit, etc etc, and so this built-in mechnism notifies where there is simply a point of no return and resources are delpeted. Same can be done for LAST critter of it's kind on a map, LAST %anything% required to go to space (e.g. total absence of gold, BUT presence of some  for oxylite

 

OF COURSE ONI IS DIFFERENT FROM DON'T STARVE, IT'S NOT DON'T STARVE! 

 

To summarize everything I said here, everything you suggested (apart from the first topic) is unfeasible on the game. If you think the game is too easy, use mods to tweak the difficulty. Most of ONI's playerbase are not pro players, like you, so adding even more difficulty would drive them away form the game (i.e. they wouldn't be able to play the game)

[SuperUser13]

  

23 hours ago, TuxSam123 said:

use mods to tweak the difficulty

what mods, except Minibase, are you suggesting ?

[TuxSam123]

4 hours ago, SuperUser13 said:

  

what mods, except Minibase, are you suggesting ?

Nightmare mod, lights out, you name it.

[KonfigSys]

you can make the game as hard as you want by restricting yourself.

- do not use vents with water or any vents, 

- do not use some buildings,

- take dupes with bad traits,

- do not use atmo suits,

- never load any saves (except when you start),

- do not use printing pods.

I believe Klei will come with more options to start like in the vanilla game where you can choose even a magma start.

I simply cannot understand people who say that there are too many volcanos, vents. Just seal them and do not use - treat them as POI. Or even better, excavate them all but cold ones and let them warm up everything around.

If you post here your save file with 1000+ cycles on all options set to the hardest difficulty (food, stress, sickness) and no sandbox, you will make a good point.

[SuperUser13]

18 hours ago, KonfigSys said:

by restricting yourself.

I can restrict myself and play with 1 hand. Thats hardly a good gamedesign.

18 hours ago, KonfigSys said:

If you post here your save file with 1000+ cycles on all options set to the hardest difficulty (food, stress, sickness) and no sandbox, you will make a good point.

the point of what exactly ?

 

18 hours ago, TuxSam123 said:

Nightmare mod, lights out, you name it.

checked both. Seems nice, would like to get something like that in game tested/implemented by game developers. I wish I knew about these ones before playing Minibase. Thx anyway.

[TuxSam123]

2 hours ago, SuperUser13 said:

I can restrict myself and play with 1 hand. Thats hardly a good gamedesign.

As I've said before, not all people are THAT good on ONI. I consider myself an average player. I haven't gone past cycle 400 yet.

2 hours ago, SuperUser13 said:

the point of what exactly ?

Because he wants you to prove why you think the game is too easy

2 hours ago, SuperUser13 said:

checked both. Seems nice, would like to get something like that in game tested/implemented by game developers. I wish I knew about these ones before playing Minibase. Thx anyway.

You are welcome.

[SuperUser13]

13 hours ago, TuxSam123 said:

Because he wants you to prove why you think the game is too easy

one of the ... trickiest thing I found is that in certain settings in Minibase mod - e.g. temp +45 C, so you have to KILL 2 of 3 dups in the beginning to get max food bonus. That was such a big revelation and such big exsiting discovery - which basically led me to buy Spaced Out, not finding some challenge, and writing this topic.

Again, I think I am also average player, but really want to get some of interesting approaches to problems.

 

 

Regarding screens/saves.

Love the game for such experience - utilizing oxygen efficiently (to get ~ 3x112 hydro, + remains of oxy for ~ 7 dups).

Come to think of it - 3 electro requires 6 gas pump to utilize all the gas, I am doing this with just 2 pumps.

Had some fun doing it, and never saw such design (obviously with game that old I suppose it exists).

No spills of hydro in the space. Works like a charm. 

Just very rarely middle electro is "Max pressure" - like 1% of time, maybe less.

[FreezingSlickT]

On 5/7/2021 at 2:21 AM, SuperUser13 said:

2. Morale idea

If you think about it - Morale does not work like that in real life. Vomiting on low morale ? I think the biggest impact of low morale is SPREAD.

1.  The thing that causes vomiting is called stress.  Low morale contributes to stress so I could see the confusion

2.  Stress can cause vomiting.

[SuperUser13]

10 hours ago, FreezingSlickT said:

1.  The thing that causes vomiting is called stress.  Low morale contributes to stress so I could see the confusion

2.  Stress can cause vomiting.

ok agreed.

The whole idea was that Stress is a something that should be handler carefully in game, on the contrary to deceases that you simply ignore.

[FreezingSlickT]

9 hours ago, SuperUser13 said:

ok agreed.

The whole idea was that Stress is a something that should be handler carefully in game, on the contrary to deceases that you simply ignore.

I see your point, and I agree that stress is really never a deal, even without a rec room, or nature reserve.  Now, if there were more stress things to have to deal with, than it might become too hard to manage stress.  You really got to balance it juuuuuuust right.  (btw, I play with the chipper stress setting)

[SuperUser13]

31 minutes ago, FreezingSlickT said:

I see your point, and I agree that stress is really never a deal, even without a rec room, or nature reserve.  Now, if there were more stress things to have to deal with, than it might become too hard to manage stress.  You really got to balance it juuuuuuust right.  (btw, I play with the chipper stress setting)

well I kind of had stress problems and they were tough to deal with, therefore my main point is that medicine never used in game.

And I would like to see "Vomiting" or "gassing" which will be problems in some rooms, especially with waterlocks, or hydrogen_dreck farms - but this never happens as you pointed correctly - most of the time it is possible to manage stress.

[FreezingSlickT]

I personally think that maybe later game- there would be more things that stress out dupes

[Electroely]

On 5/13/2021 at 1:43 PM, FreezingSlickT said:

I personally think that maybe later game- there would be more things that stress out dupes

I think stress comes into play a fair bit later on, when you need to set up infrastructure on new planets. Even with sunny disposition I've had dupes come pretty close to breaking down while on remote planets because of low morale + other stressors like full bladder, soggy feet/sopping wet, low oxygen and sometimes sunburn. The "duress to impress" trait also makes it so you can try to stress out a dupe to your advantage - especially in these trailblazer scenarios.

[FreezingSlickT]

2 hours ago, Electroely said:

I think stress comes into play a fair bit later on, when you need to set up infrastructure on new planets. Even with sunny disposition I've had dupes come pretty close to breaking down while on remote planets because of low morale + other stressors like full bladder, soggy feet/sopping wet, low oxygen and sometimes sunburn. The "duress to impress" trait also makes it so you can try to stress out a dupe to your advantage - especially in these trailblazer scenarios.

Yeah, Duress to Impress seems good for the dupes your gonna send into the abyss of space.  They get stressed out, they become efficient so they in total, aren't always stressed because they can build quicker

[KonfigSys]

 

On 5/12/2021 at 6:04 PM, SuperUser13 said:

I can restrict myself and play with 1 hand. Thats hardly a good gamedesign.

the point of what exactly ?

 

checked both. Seems nice, would like to get something like that in game tested/implemented by game developers. I wish I knew about these ones before playing Minibase. Thx anyway.

 

TuxSam123 has answered for me and I completely agree with his points. Just to clarify:

Nobody asks you to play with one hand (hmm I am playing with only one hand - mouse play only) but the game has so many options to make the game challenging.

Starting with the option - not all players especially new ones know that you can change settings to much harder ones - it is not obvious when you choose the seed. 

The game difficulty may depend on the map. Klei came with "ideal" maps only for the DLC, I have no doubts there will be harder options in the future. Though the only harder one I can see if you start on the niobium asteroid, if you played 400 cycles with all settings set to hardest.

You mentioned three categories to make the game harder.

Illnesses . Klei did lethal diseases at first (and a lot of players stopped playing). The problem was when you start a new colony you have no medicine to combat the diseases. If one dupe gets sick, all your colony gets sick and die within 10 cycles. So what would you do? Right, you would avoid slime biomes until you develop atmosuits, slimelung injections, etc. So it is not much to add to the game play but just to hinder your game progression. To be clear - I am not against if Klei adds extra lethal option to diseases' option bar if it makes some players happy. But I would not expect too much extra joy out of it. Even in the current game you can perfectly simulate it by setting a rule/restriction - do not venture into slime biomes until you have slimelung injections. It may badly hit new players if they mess up with options.. I have more than 10K hours sank into the game and know how to make the game very difficult if you really want to.

Morale ideas are ok (you probably know that crying dup reduces morale of others nearby). You can have more stress on dupes if you let them study all learning points and provide bad food (or even better do not build a grill).

Restriction of resources/volcanos. You cannot increase the number but you can always stop using one, two or all of them. You can also erased all vents in a sandbox mode.

I did not mean to offend you when I offered you to share your save. If you played even 400 cycles but all settings to the hardest, then you can be proud of. If settings were not on hardest or you use cheats/mods to make life easier than you have an opportunity to make the game harder for yourself (without playing with one hand  )

I believe Klei has all statistics on players - which options they choose and how many prefer one style or another. I gave my consent to send my play information to Klei at the game beginning. So they can fine tune the game as needed. If they see that many players are on the hardest settings and still complain that the game is too easy, I guess they may come up with "impossible" option (special map + special rules). Though this one has already been implemented through mods.

[SuperUser13]

22 hours ago, KonfigSys said:

the game has so many options to make the game challenging.

exactly my point that it DOES NOT.

because YOU can make the game more complicated - install mods, (not)use something, etc etc.
I would like to get a content where game suppose to have challenge, 

again like Minibase mode, where you sometimes have to kill 2 dups, just to survive first 40 cycles digging to colder places to plant mealwood. Further more you go to a point where you accept another dups, restrict food, and use their honest ~1.5-2 days work untill they are dead (don't remember exactly). This is genuinly fresh and new - you don't kill dups in your game to survive, but... you kind of... do. 

You see my point ? Game devs are expected to make survival game - SURVIVAL, or at the very least - FIX things that are not working since ... forever.

 

22 hours ago, KonfigSys said:

It may badly hit new players if they mess up with options

Well certain games say - "You died - start over". What's the problem ?

Ok, you can make a bit roguelike-ky - "Get to cycle 50 without death (or any idea) - get a tier 3 skill for every dup for.... (any tested idea). So it will be rewarding to try and fail because fails will lead to better start conditions. Again - many times used in other game genre - and to be honest - if you randomize world it is a bit different. Not that it provides new experience or strategies, but it has potential.

 

22 hours ago, KonfigSys said:

I did not mean to offend you when I offered you to share your save

again I dont mind sharing anything I have - and explain why I dont have certain achievments, the thing is - it should NOT be about player - it should be about DEVELOPER to DEVELOP game that in it's name has SURVIVAL concept, but never actually devlier survival experience.

[sakura_sk]

49 minutes ago, SuperUser13 said:

Well certain games say - "You died - start over". What's the problem ?

Ok, you can make a bit roguelike-ky

But survival and roguelike are different genres. ONI is a survival - colony sim - base building game, not a survival - roguelike (and personally I wouldn't want it to be)

[SuperUser13]

1 hour ago, sakura_sk said:

But survival and roguelike are different genres. ONI is a survival - colony sim - base building game, not a survival - roguelike (and personally I wouldn't want it to be)

it was just an example.

ONI has too many mechanics connected to survival like breathing, eating, sleeping, etc, etc etc, and overall gameplay does not punish you when failed in them. It does not have to be 1 chance/save for success.

For example: metheor of badly closed bunker door can crash your base, badly designed liquid/gas pipes, electricit ... overloads.

How am I punished by just ignoring ALL deceases ? 

Moreover some decision are suprising - early stress problems are fixible by making dups - exhaust and sleeps whenever. On some periods in minibase mode - that was a good  way to deal with stress instead of using expensive very limited Coal generator.

Jesus, frankly as if I am a single person who did not get update when sick dups really need tending.

[babba]

A little input

The Iron Man Mode

[Rainbowdesign]

You may find this mod interesting:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2014940545&searchtext=challenge+collection

 

Its however a bit work in progress and can be messy from time to time.