We need a solution for removing CO2 from the rocket. At a minimum.

[MachineryMan]

Hi all. Sorry it's a lot, but I've been preparing...

After the developer removed (well, almost) the possibility to open the fourth dimension inside the rockets by breaking the walls, I, as someone who tries to play without exploits and all this time as an idiot flying in small rockets, decided to share my opinion and ideas. The post will be divided into two logical parts: the main problem and additional suggestions.

Part One.

Let's start by saying that I consider the main problem with the functionality of any rocket to be the lack of ability to remove carbon dioxide from the room. Look:

Here two very well trained dudes (maximum science and piloting, not mouthbreathers) flew 3 cells away from the base asteroid, looked through a telescope, opened about 15 cells and flew back. 1/4 of the room is now filled with carbon dioxide. There is no way to remove it other than to release the 13 cells under the Carbon skimmer - water stieve system.

I can hypothetically assume that there is a more ideal layout for two people. We can reorganize: 3 cells above the telescope, remove one battery, plus there are two free cells near the bottom bed. That adds up to 9 cells and I have no idea where to get four more. Okay, I imagine we need to replace the "smart" battery with a regular battery that takes up two tiles and train a special runner that won't get out of the wheel and won't mind eating on the floor. But the very procedure of manually delivering water to the tank, then pumping it with a freaking pump into the skimmer-stieve system seems idiotic to me. 

Otherwise, the only way to get the gases out of the room is to build the command module all over again. Or smash the windows, but we don't do that, we're fair...

The situation with small command modules is even worse.

Even if I remove the bed, fridge and conveyor loader (to deliver the algae), I don't have even a hypothetical way to remove the CO2 at all. Well, you could stick a door in the window and open it to ventilate, sure... But that's not who we are!!!

Anyway, my suggestion is to put a valve-tile with an automation port (On/Off) on the bottom right of the wall (near the oxygen generator in my second example) that is opened/closed by either dudes or automation. If the valve is open, the gases can pass outside and be destroyed there. A simple way to eliminate CO2 without the possibility of exploits. Seriously, you can't force us to put skimmers and filters in a rocket, not the caliber of task to spend 13 cells on it.

Part two.

The second, but not so critical problem I think is a weak idea to organize a supply to the crew of the rocket with everything they need during the flight, and, as a consequence, the possibility to cut down the whole neighbouring asteroid, load it into the command module and drag to the main asteroid in one flight, not even bothering to build cargo-modules.

My solution is as follows:

1. We should not be allowed to build all kinds of storages, conveyor loaders and fridges inside the command module. 

2. We need an additional life support module, which should be built under the command module. You can have one type (3X2 cells), or you can make a large one (4X3) and a small one (3X2) of your choice. Inside with the help of conveyor belts and pipes are pumped clean water (50-100 kg), Food (up to 50 kg), oxygen (up to 200 kg).  In addition, this module has ports for the output of waste and some space (50-100kg) under them.Inside the command module are either already located, or it is possible to arrange independently a compartment for food (1x1), port for clean water and air (two ports 1x1 in the background), and the port for the intake of waste water and possibly waste gases (CO2) (2x1 ports in the background).

3. All necessary life support resources are fed directly into the module and stored there, and then used by the dudes inside the rocket during flight. The food should not rot, as it is stored in a special place, where the problem of rotting is eliminated.

4. The outgoing ports inside the command module work on the principle of normal ports, say, for pumps and toilets. Plug in a pipe - water flowing. Everything except the food port. Food in the form of the necessary portion is delivered to the dude with a personal manual request only during a meal break or in case of acute hunger. The water and gas input ports work on the same principle as the incoming ports on, say, water/gas tanks.

Possible exploits: 

1. No one will forbid pumping something into the life support module that has nothing to do with life support. Solution: let them do it, the life support module should not be much better than the carto-module in terms of capacity, but the torment with it should be many times greater.

2. With this system you can very easily pump liquids and gases inside the command module. Of course, there will be those who will transport liquids inside the Command Module and not in the Cargo Module. Solution: prohibit building liquid and gas reservoirs inside the Command Module. Prohibit building water outlet valves and plastic gas valves to eliminate the possibility of building infinite water storage inside the module and pumping gases with a density of 20 kg per square. Prohibit building Bottle and Canister emptiers inside the module, not only to remove the ability to manually pump water and gas, but also to prevent the ability to build infinite gas storage inside. Of course, we can still break the water pipe, the water will spill on the floor and thus an infinite gas vault can be built. Okay, forbid building large pumps inside the command module, let there be only mini-pumps. See how they like pumping out liquid for a couple dozen hundred cycles.

3. There will always be a smart-ass who tells dudes to build, let's say, "20 aqua tuners of the metal he needs on the main asteroid" inside the Command Module, and then disassemble them, thus leaving inside weight of materials exceeding the carrying capacity of the Сargo-Module. Solution: prohibit any construction inside the Command Module that costs more than 400 units. If someone wants to agonize but deliver a bunch of materials in the command module, well, at least it won't be easy. I don't have any better solution here.

Thank you for your attention. I really hope someone reads this through to the end, I especially wish one of the developers would do it. I really like your game (it's my favorit) and am promoting it to everyone with some kind of brain inside the scull in every way possible. Thinking a lot about what could be improved. If you're a developer and you at least read this (you don't need to necessarily like the idea or thought it through), please put at least a bracket ")" in response, me and I think not only me will be very pleased to know that you see everything))

[Tofiel]

Easiest way to ditch co2 is to have natural grown oxyfern. another solution is to have high pressure of oxygen. third one - bottle co2 into canisters by empty  ventilation pipes, fourth one is by pressurising rocket with ultra cool oxylite - co2 will freeze. all of them are doable within command module

[Sasza22]

For the CO2 i think we could use an "outside vent". Basically a tile that sends resources to the void based on automation. You could use that to get rid of accumulating gasses. Should be only usable during space missions not on the ground. This would fix both CO2 in the bottom and hydrogen in the top when using plug slugs for example.

I don`t think we should have too many restrictions to what we can build in the command module, small scale exploits are fine (like the aquatuner one, btw tempshift plates would work as well) but we need to make storage modules wothwhile. IMO the command moduleneeds it`s own set of storage buildings that have lower storage but some take less room (mini liquid tank, mini gas tank). Then there are the debris. Ininite resources lying on the floor. They should be required to get cleared before launch.

Life support systems need some miniaturisation as well. Like a miniature toilet outputting waste into space (usable only during flight). Miniturized hand sanitizer. 1x1 oxylite dispenser (basically a refuelable oxylite tile) and a portable battery (basically bottled joules).

[Tofiel]

There is no need for storage, just use an infinite storage solution - lay on the ground.

[Yunru]

I mean, if you replace that trash oxygen Diffuser with an Algae Terrarium... :P

[MachineryMan]

36 minutes ago, Tofiel said:

Easiest way to ditch co2 is to have natural grown oxyfern. another solution is to have high pressure of oxygen. third one - bottle co2 into canisters by empty  ventilation pipes, fourth one is by pressurising rocket with ultra cool oxylite - co2 will freeze. all of them are doable within command module

Okay, I apologize in advance if this is sarcasm. But I'm a serious and stupid person, and I have no sense of humor.

1. Oxyfern. If I'm counting correctly, you need 9 of these plants per man. Show me, please, a cat that bypasses the seed planting rule to plant that many plants in a room, even if I find a way to create natural tiles inside the module. Well, or you need 3 domestic oxyferns, which is more realistic, but takes 9 cells, even without counting the water tank for irrigation. It's more logical to use the skimmer-steave system. Doesn't even work as a periodic solution to the carbon dioxide problem. Or prove me wrong with real example. By the way, the room is designed for two dudes. Next.

2. High pressure. To begin with, this does not solve the problem, but delays it. Second, poped eardrums. Third, you need a constant source of oxygen at least (2 cells), a 240 watt gas pump (4 cells) and a plastic valve (1 cell). By design, the pump must stand isolated so that the oxygen source does not reach the pressure limit. This is a 2×3 sealed room, which means the total volume of the design is a minimum of 11 cells, if we don't count the hydroseal itself where we can place something. I don't take flooded valve designs now, so you need plastic for a plastic valve, shows up after the third asteroid when you have plastic Drekos or petrolium. The CO2 problem occurs earlier. Well worth noting is the complete cretinism of this design in the context of solving such a minor problem. Makes me beat a facepalm. So next.

3. Canister solution. So, put a pump that pumps out the CO2, sends it to the canister filler, right? The total construction volume is 10 cells. +1 cell for automation for the pump, but here you can just cut the wire. Overall a good option, at least you don't have to carry water. But only suitable as a periodic carbon dioxide clearing system, when you're on a landed rocket to make room for this structure, and then return everything as it was. I'd prefer the option where you don't have to overhaul the rocket after every 10 cycles in space. As a permanent solution, the design is too big.

4. Ultra cool oxylite. Not even taking into account how oxylite is created, stored, delivered and cooled below -60 degrees. Living with permanent hypothermia? In general, with such labor costs, it is easier to put two compartments with ATMO suits (6 cells), a pump and diffuser (another 6 cells) and almost eliminate carbon dioxide emissions. 

And of course none of this works for the little command module.

1 hour ago, Yunru said:

I mean, if you replace that trash oxygen Diffuser with an Algae Terrarium... :P

That's exactly right! For five terrariums, to be exact, so that the guys don't die without oxygen... :P

1 hour ago, Sasza22 said:

I don`t think we should have too many restrictions to what we can build in the command module, small scale exploits are fine (like the aquatuner one, btw tempshift plates would work as well) but we need to make storage modules wothwhile. IMO the command moduleneeds it`s own set of storage buildings that have lower storage but some take less room (mini liquid tank, mini gas tank). Then there are the debris. Ininite resources lying on the floor. They should be required to get cleared before launch.

This is much harder to do than the module I suggested. Basically, they already have the mechanics of teleportation from one place to another (resource transport between the first and second asteroid). Screw it to the rocket and it will work. Besides, it's more like how real spaceflight works. And I'm really annoyed by this imbalance when I have a dude running into a rocket with a piece of granite heavier than the payload capacity of the ship. I know how expensive it is to get one kilogram of whatever into space. It's the alpha and omega of the entire space industry. I wish the cost of carrying weight was an extremely important thing, not the way it is now.

As for special toilets and other space stuff, I'm all for it. 

[Yunru]

48 minutes ago, MachineryMan said:

That's exactly right! For five terrariums, to be exact, so that the guys don't die without oxygen... :P

Not at all, you get much more than that per Terrarium if you let the polluted water off-gas. 

[MachineryMan]

2 minutes ago, Yunru said:

Not at all, you get much more than that per Terrarium if you let the polluted water off-gas. 

Oh, you mean the release of polluted oxygen? Hmm. Actually, that's not a bad idea. A couple of deodorants would be fine. Have you counted how many terrariums you need per dude? Or does it depend on the amount of water?
The only thing I still don't like is the need for water. But I didn't even calculate this design, I don't like terrariums at all and never use them.

Also, it's a little annoying that even humanity doesn't yet have a normal way of producing oxygen biologically in space. (However, it should be noted that there is no technical one either). That's why I was thinking in the direction of pumping it into the rocket from outside.

[AndreyKl]

3 hours ago, MachineryMan said:

If I'm counting correctly, you need 9 of these plants per man.

9 natural ones, but 3.1 domesticated oxyferns per dupe. And you don't need to have all 3 if rocket isn't manned 24/7

7 hours ago, MachineryMan said:

There is no way to remove it other than to release the 13 cells under the Carbon skimmer - water stieve system.

It is possible to use a 'mini gas pump', sensor and pipes+canister filler as storage, then empty the rocket once landed. Whole setup will take 9 tiles (if you do not add gas filter and a vent) but should last a while.

P.S. Would be nice to have compact and 'manual' version of Cabon skimmer, but at the moment we have to make do with what we have.

[The Plum Gate]

You don't want PO getting too out of control, dupes breath 30g/s more O2 and PO2 when they have yucky lungs.

The best current method I saw was snaking pipe around the inside of the cabin and having a pump to pump the gasses into the pipe - you can use a valve end or a bridge to draw the contents down the pipe - the trick here being the use of a plumber to empty the CO2 into bottled form. You can use some looping mechanics to help combine packets so that it's not getting backed up constantly - I'm sure there's a diagram here or there that will show how how pipe priority can be used to create a sort of reliable filter.

There's not a lot of space for these thing, if they had a module that could expand the utility of the system, it would be nice to have access to on board gas and liquid storages ( and even have those where you could allocate and partition off portions of those storages for access to and from the inside of the module ). This doesn't solve the need for a pump, so it looks like a ventilation pump specific to the interior of the space craft would be a nice feature to have.

So, has anyone else just used large quantities of oxygen masks filled with o2 from a storage container? I mean, this seems like the easiest route to take, but it doesn't get the CO2 out. Last I checked, oxygen masks could be stored with O2 still in them, and as far as I can tell, there's no way to empty them without them getting used - they can be assigned manually like clothing, so there shouldn't be a problem getting a dupe an o2 supply regardless of what the atmosphere looks like in the module. All you have to do is manage storing them in the rocket after filling them.

So another thought is to create the hackish infrastructure for evacuating liquids and gasses and only construct a pump from stored materials and power it when the gasses or liquids become excessive - via the plumber method.

Not sure that CO2 is produced from masked dupes or not - I haven't paid much attention.

Not to mention that bottled O2 can be stored on the floor, you just don't want the bottles being excessively large or you end up with popped eardrums, etc.

[MachineryMan]

On 2/3/2021 at 4:35 AM, The Plum Gate said:

the trick here being the use of a plumber to empty the CO2 into bottled form.

Ok. I did this. I didnt like it, but it works. Just came back to thank you for advice. 

Anyway, i think, an exhaust valve for CO2 is still needed.

[sakura_sk]

4 minutes ago, MachineryMan said:

Anyway, i think, an exhaust valve for CO2 is still needed.

That and... tiny doors!  Tiny doors save a lot of room in rocket interior!

[MachineryMan]

27 minutes ago, sakura_sk said:

Tiny doors save a lot of room in rocket interior!

yep) To be honest, there is a way to build this layout without them, you just have to lose the bonus of the barracks and some decor, but not critically. But aesthetically the small doors are awesome. I think they should have been in the game from the start because of the huge amount of vertical movement.

[The Plum Gate]

If only there as a small smart battery, mini fridge, ..

I think the automation switches should be able to be placed on top of other buildings, but I could see how this might throw some people off on design spaces. I like where you put the pump though.

[The Plum Gate]

Oh, nice, it looks like they added ports and power too, lol

[MachineryMan]

1 hour ago, The Plum Gate said:

If only there as a small smart battery

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1843834993

We have one, but not for DLC. I think, for some coffee and love, smart people from ONI mod discord could do a thing like this. 

In my opinion, small batteries are cute, but they won't solve the main problem of rockets. The main problem with rockets is a wooden farmhouse toilet and a shabby granny's washbasin in the command compartment made of highly advanced fireproof materials. That's why we need a water tank and a crap tank outside the module. And preferably also a toilet and a sink in four, not six, tiles. And CO2 valve.

Crap, even bloody NASA astronauts and Roscosmos cosmonauts are throwing carbon dioxide into space! And they are smarter than us and haven't found a better way. No one came along and said, 'Let's put bushes everywhere and let them absorb the CO2. I think humanity can afford to carry half a tonne of water for irrigation and a couple of 200kg bags of fertiliser into space'. Shame!

[AndreyKl]

On 2/5/2021 at 2:19 AM, The Plum Gate said:

If only there as a small smart battery

Realistically whole command module should have came out a lot more prepared for flight and with some kind of device for landing pad to interact with built in life support. What kind of manned rocket doesn't have built in battery nor air tank? Whole command module is made out of blocks, I suspect that it is trivial to spawn the rocket with built in tiny solar panel (indestructible) instead of a roof, air tank and battery.

It looks like newer update did provide some new options in this regards... still has a lot of space for improvement.

[MachineryMan]

OK, I have nowhere to brag and this design is no longer relevant, but... I'm so proud of myself...
 

Spoiler

 

 

 

[Sigmok]

I like the way the new Rocket Intake and Output Fittings are shaping up and how they connect to the Rocket Modules for use during a mission.

I think I'd like to see us get the ability to connect Rocket Intake and Output Fittings directly to their corresponding Rocket Port as well.  This would be nice when setting up a Rocket for flight and cleaning it up after it lands without having to the corresponding Rocket Module installed.  

For an example, if I'm not using a Gas Cargo Canister on a mission I will then install a Gas Cargo Canister to pump out unwanted gasses after a mission.  Before a mission I assume I could pump in oxygen (haven't tried it just yet).  After I'm ready for the next mission I replace the Gas Cargo Canister on the Rocket.

I'm not sure if this would balance well with Solids due to infinite storage potentials.

I'm not sure how useful this would be for Liquids.  If I needed to pump out Liquids from my Capsule after a mission then I feel like I might be having other issues that need addressing.

[AndreyKl]

12 hours ago, Sigmok said:

I think I'd like to see us get the ability to connect Rocket Intake and Output Fittings directly to their corresponding Rocket Port as well.  This would be nice when setting up a Rocket for flight and cleaning it up after it lands without having to the corresponding Rocket Module installed.  

Personally I would prefer to have some different life support modules. A very 'light' module that stores small amount of life support related items/liquids/gases/power (but nothing else), doesn't take a module slot, but can be used only once and if you want for rocket to stay in space longer - add a bigger one that does use slots or proper containers.