[POLL] Winter Feast Skins

[Zeklo]

43 minutes ago, gaymime said:

wendigos aren't just regular spooky things though. they are both a serious and dark representation that is taken seriously by the people whose culture they come from as well as a shorthand for some really messed up and medically dubious(at the very best) excuses to ostracize and villianize first nations people

it would be like giving one of the survivors a nazi skin. it is not impossible and there are many people who wouldnt be upset but it would be really inappropriate and not acceptable to do

A great many things from folklore, or anything in general, can be traced back to their very real connotations.

I'd venture to guess most individuals aren't familiar with its roots even, as it's become a pretty normalized "spooky monster". It's hardly the only thing that could be considered an 'offender' if you dig enough.

Heck, the Fuelweaver basically is a Wendigo. It's an Ancient possessing the skeleton of 'something' and he even consumes the remains of his people as one of his abilities. Not to mention how it outright looks.

[wigfrids hat]

9 minutes ago, Zeklo said:

A great many things from folklore, or anything in general, can be traced back to their very real connotations.

I'd venture to guess most individuals aren't familiar with its roots even, as it's become a pretty normalized "spooky monster". It's hardly the only thing that could be considered an 'offender' if you dig enough.

Heck, the Fuelweaver basically is a Wendigo. It's an Ancient possessing the skeleton of 'something' and he even consumes the remains of his people as one of his abilities. Not to mention how it outright looks.

there is a difference between "like x" and "is x". also the wedigo is only becoming a normalized monster by people who have no actual relationship to the culture. that doesnt justify it or make it ok and saying there are other problematic creatures isn't a viable excuse either

fuelweaver is nothing like a wendigo though. it was a person(though obv not a human person) that died then much later was involuntarily resurrected. it didn't become what it is because it committed atrocities. it is only killing to stop a much greater threat than the player from coming, and when it is far from it's home(which has been corrupted btw) it is not even hostile

[minespatch]

3 hours ago, gaymime said:

do you think this is why he is so adamant about fire safety?

Best thing for Klei to do: Remove his eyebrows.

[Zeklo]

7 minutes ago, gaymime said:

there is a difference between "like x" and "is x". also the wedigo is only becoming a normalized monster by people who have no actual relationship to the culture. that doesnt justify it or make it ok and saying there are other problematic creatures isn't a viable excuse either

The real issue is the name, because that specific name has specific connotations to specific people that isn't otherwise wide-spread. The modern 'normalized' version of the Wendigo isn't a legitimate Wendigo. I'm not even sure where the whole 'deer-thing' came from, but it's not from the original cultures. Problem is, when you want to refer to a skeleton deer monster that eats people the easiest method of doing so is calling it a Wendigo.

We can just as easily call it an "evil spirit" or "demon", but what we actually mean will be clear either way [once it gets down to the nitty gritty]. Not to mention both of these terms are technically problematic themselves—though much more widely accepted regardless.

I'm not trying to say that 'problematic creatures are fine, because we already have some'—what I'm trying to say is that many things we consider fine can just as easily be considered problematic if you dig into their history or simply look at it through a specific lens. In some environments the depiction of ghosts/skeletons/undead is taboo for whatever reasons that may apply, yet they are much more easily accepted/overlooked.

Wortox is literally an imp. Which can either mean a trickster spirit or a malevolent devil depending on your personal context.

tl;dr - The name is the issue, less so the monster which has been considerably warped from it's original sources.

17 minutes ago, gaymime said:

fuelweaver is nothing like a wendigo though. it was a person(though obv not a human person) that died then much later was involuntarily resurrected. it didn't become what it is because it committed atrocities. it is only killing to stop a much greater threat than the player from coming, and when it is far from it's home(which has been corrupted btw) it is not even hostile

I disagree. Although the Fuelweaver does act somewhat redeemable now, he chose to upset the natural balance and indulge in the dark arts ultimately causing the demise of his civilization. Good intentions, poor means. But yes, him not being a true mindless evil entity does set him apart. Which is ultimately the goal—he's not a Wendigo, but I'd be somewhat shocked to learn he wasn't inspired by the modern concept, at least visually.

Conclusion

All that aside, yeah it's probably not a good idea to have a character skin for a [essentially good] playable character that is literally named Wendigo. Though I see no issue having a skin utilize the western deer-monster design. It could simply be called The Starved or something if they really wanted to make such a skin.

[wigfrids hat]

7 minutes ago, Zeklo said:

The real issue is the name, because that specific name has specific connotations to specific people that isn't otherwise wide-spread. The modern 'normalized' version of the Wendigo isn't a legitimate Wendigo. I'm not even sure where the whole 'deer-thing' came from, but it's not from the original cultures. Problem is, when you want to refer to a skeleton deer monster that eats people the easiest method of doing so is calling it a Wendigo.

We can just as easily call it an "evil spirit" or "demon", but what we actually mean will be clear either way [once it gets down to the nitty gritty]. Not to mention both of these terms are technically problematic themselves—though much more widely accepted regardless.

I'm not trying to say that 'problematic creatures are fine, because we already have some'—what I'm trying to say is that many things we consider fine can just as easily be considered problematic if you dig into their history or simply look at it through a specific lens. In some environments the depiction of ghosts/skeletons/undead is taboo for whatever reasons that may apply, yet they are much more easily accepted/overlooked.

Wortox is literally an imp. Which can either mean a trickster spirit or a malevolent devil depending on your personal context.

tl;dr - The name is the issue, less so the monster which has been considerably warped from it's original sources.

I disagree. Although the Fuelweaver does act somewhat redeemable now, he chose to upset the natural balance and indulge in the dark arts ultimately causing the demise of his civilization. Good intentions, poor means. But yes, him not being a true mindless evil entity does set him apart. Which is ultimately the goal—he's not a Wendigo, but I'd be somewhat shocked to learn he wasn't inspired by the modern concept, at least visually.

Conclusion

All that aside, yeah it's probably not a good idea to have a character skin for a [essentially good] playable character that is literally named Wendigo. Though I see no issue having a skin utilize the western deer-monster design. It could simply be called The Starved or something if they really wanted to make such a skin.

that and the whole not actually having a say in the body he was forced into and did not even wishing to be there and of course the having been dead thing.

calling it the 'starved' and making it look like a colonizer's interpretation of a wendigo leaves it with the same problem as before. it is still an appropriated piece of another culture and is still problematic. you didn't actually do anything but suggest a barely different name without removing the recognizable features that make it a problem.

all in all though it is still a really bad idea and i seriously doubt klei would do such a thing so there is little reason to keep circling around on it when the topic is on existing skins and not hypothetical ones

 

 

[minespatch]

2 minutes ago, gaymime said:

calling it the 'starved' and making it look like a colonizer's interpretation of a wendigo leaves it with the same problem as before. it is still an appropriated piece of another culture and is still problematic. you didn't actually do anything but suggest a barely different name without removing the recognizable features that make it a problem.

So... Not having a hallowed nights skin on the fuelweaver... At all?

[wigfrids hat]

2 minutes ago, minespatch said:

So... Not having a hallowed nights skin on the fuelweaver... At all?

noone said that. go ahead and have the fuelweaver just not a wendigo. there is no issue with a burning bovine skele that has alt bits to it XD

[minespatch]

3 hours ago, FairyInABottle said:

Wortox's bothers me the most because I feel like it was a missed chance to do a wendigo skin.

What does Wendigo have to do with winter times?

I just hope Klei actually goes for Grinch for Wortox's Merrymaker skin.

[FairyInABottle]

1 hour ago, minespatch said:

What does Wendigo have to do with winter times?

I just hope Klei actually goes for Grinch for Wortox's Merrymaker skin.

Every time I've seen it pictured was in a winter setting. The deer component mirrors Deerclops. He eats souls.

 

3 hours ago, gaymime said:

there is a difference between "like x" and "is x". also the wedigo is only becoming a normalized monster by people who have no actual relationship to the culture. that doesnt justify it or make it ok and saying there are other problematic creatures isn't a viable excuse either

fuelweaver is nothing like a wendigo though. it was a person(though obv not a human person) that died then much later was involuntarily resurrected. it didn't become what it is because it committed atrocities. it is only killing to stop a much greater threat than the player from coming, and when it is far from it's home(which has been corrupted btw) it is not even hostile

Not everyone feels the puritanical need to sanitize and censor things out of fear of offending someone. I'm sure there is segment of Christians who don't like christianity portrayed in video games. Should Winter's Feast be removed entirely? No. Year of the Varg clearly built of Chinese myth. Should that not have happened? Something like half of Icelanders believe in fairies and elves. Doesn't mean they should be removed from all media. You can find someone to be offended by anything. Don't be a modern day Inquisition.

[wigfrids hat]

8 hours ago, FairyInABottle said:

Every time I've seen it pictured was in a winter setting. The deer component mirrors Deerclops. He eats souls.

 

Not everyone feels the puritanical need to sanitize and censor things out of fear of offending someone. I'm sure there is segment of Christians who don't like christianity portrayed in video games. Should Winter's Feast be removed entirely? No. Year of the Varg clearly built of Chinese myth. Should that not have happened? Something like half of Icelanders believe in fairies and elves. Doesn't mean they should be removed from all media. You can find someone to be offended by anything. Don't be a modern day Inquisition.

ok, it is clear now that you are wholly ignorant of the situation if you feel this is equivocal to foo dogs, red devils and fairies which have different emotional value, cultural taboo and social stigma attached to them. perhaps you should actually look up what a wendigo is before you try to argue your position

btw,  @minespatch the reason they are shown in winter seasons is because(spoiler for being gross and depressing);

Spoiler

 

winter is a time where food scarcity is much more likely and so being a malevolent abomination that is(sometimes) caused by and represents the horrors of famine it is a strong association, it is also a pop-culture thing it is a combination of the story by a lgernon blackwood and the donner party the first of which was a british colonizer's interpretation of a wendigo though it is almost entirely in name-only since the dude was ignorant of what one actually was and just used the idea of a body metamorphosing into something 'other' as a general idea of madness. the latter was an fractured expedition of colonizers who intentionally and purposely did many things that left them without food and mired in deep snow. when the party split into two the first party(mostly adults and mostly men) voted to kill the non-white people for pack rations(those voted to death ran away) and after butchering and storing everyone who died from other means they hunted down the non-white people and did just that though they found a first nations camp right after and made it to their destination. the latter party stayed behind(comprised mostly of children) and, three months later were also resorting to cannibalism though it wasnt a calculated move like with the other group it was that there was literally no other food as they had eaten even the roofs and floor-coverings already and there was nothing else left. as gruesome as it was this actually does line up with the mythos since greed, violence, murder, consumption of flesh and extreme human suffering are the components of what makes a wendigo

 

assuredly though even if it wasnt a very bad idea it also would even be appropriate to make such an association with wortox who isn't a cruel monster who enjoys hurting others or who cares for monetary gain(and even though pvp is part of the game cannibalism is not despite cries for longmeat)