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Return of them's ocean and why I think that it feels like filler content.


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Right of the bat, I would like to say that I acknowledge Return of Them still being in development as well as that the content that is here in and of itself is not bad.
In fact I quite like the sailing itself, the fishing can be engaging once you get a hang of it and the different creatures can offer some interactions with players we never really saw before.
This discussion is not really supposed to be about the content in and of itself, nor how big of an impact said content has on the rest of the game, which would be a discussion for another time.
I know this topic is polarizing in itself, but I do not want for it to get out of hand.

So please before you comment, take the time to read through what I have to say and then judge whether you agree with the points I will be trying to make or not.

Spoiler

With all that out of the way, let's get straight to the point.

The ocean feels empty. 
We have seastacks everywhere, there is brine pools with salt as well as seaweed infested waters all around the map, we have several types of fishes, gnarwhales, rockjaw sharks, the malbatross and yet whenever I go out on sea, it feels empty.
I strongly feel that the way the ocean content is distributed across the ocean, that being scattering the different locations everywhere with the other content spawning around the player wherever they are, makes the ocean feel emptier, despite there being a decent amount of content. Most of the ocean feels samey for this reason, there's not really any big variety.
We have a few points of interest such as the lunar island, pearl's island, crab king, the shoals where malbatross spawns, salt brine pools and the seaweeds, but the only places you would realistically visit more than once or twice are the lunar island and pearl's island, and even then rarely at that.
All the other content just sort of pops up around the players with no real set location for them, which, coupled with what I said earlier about most locations being something you visit once or twice at most, makes me feel as though the ocean is just filler content. A means to an end. An afterthought.

I'm not gonna praise shipwrecked here as much as many others do, since I think that itself has it's own issues, but in shipwrecked the ocean at least feels fun to explore. That's not just because it has different boating mechanics, but rather because you can explore different kinds of islands all the time, find things within the ocean that are good to keep in mind and revisit as well as everything feeling cohesive. A lot of parts of shipwrecked directly work together with the ocean and it's exploration.

The ocean of Return of Them on the other hand is lacking a lot of this, everything just feels like it is there for the sake of existing without being fleshed out as deeply as it could be. 
The idea of having a vast ocean with different locations to explore and creatures to find sounds like a great idea on paper, but in execution it sadly does not live up to that idea (at least not from what we have seen so far). As of me writing this, I feel like the only thing that really incentivizes ocean exploration is the crab king, and even then it just doesn't feel right.
All the other content is either scattered around so much (salt brines, seaweeds and shoals), you just find it by sailing for a few minutes, spawns around you randomly and without much logic (the ocean fishes, gnarwhales and rockjaws), so you won't even really have to sail all over the ocean either or is just shown to you (lunar island or pearl's island), either through intentional ways or ways that seem more accidentally than anything else.
In this sea of content that you will barely have to actually sail around and explore for, crab king is the sole exception which forces you to go on a wild goose chase in search of where he is.
There's no clear indication, no hint, nothing. Sometimes he spawns somewhat near the coast, other times you'll have to go to the furthest edges of the ocean to find him and that just is not fun, no matter how engaging the sailing mechanics themselves are. The same is sort of the case for the lunar island, would it not be for an oddity in the worldgen to give away it's location (still, this feels less intended and more like something that is just not finished).

All of these things are the reason why I feel the ocean exists only as a way to get to the lunar content and not because someone genuinely wanted a whole ocean, but rather the content that was added in the ocean was added just so that there is something, anything to do within this huge new part of the map that was opened up.
In my opinion the whole ocean would feel more alive if there were more actual locations, regions you'd want to revisit several times, creatures that belonged to these regions and just have something new to find wherever you go instead of the same 3 layouts of brine pools and seaweed gatherings with a couple of fish erratically sprinkled in. That and indicators for where things are, playing around with the surrounding seas more, leaving "breadcrumbs" to know that something of interest is close by.

That's just my opinion though, I would love to know what you all think.

 

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14 minutes ago, Well-met said:

literally all Klei needs to do is create fun set pieces for the sea. Like 20-30 of them.

Depends on what these set pieces would be like really.

As I said above something to revisit every now and then would be neat and could make exploration more exciting, perhaps something like tiny islands with their own little content would be best suited for this.
For example I'd love to see something like a fire island (which Maxwell mentions for example) or just generally tiny places that help make the world feel more alive.
Though then again that sounds more complicated than a simple set piece, so what do I know. 

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islands that are 1-8 tiles large with an ocean-exclusive harvestable plant on it, or a failed survivor, or a miniature graveyard with fog, or a partially-constructed base or even just a pig-guard setpiece with some sort of loot(night-time lights seem like a cool idea). it might also be neat to have random small loots that can be picked up with the pinching winch or an abandoned boat with structures built on it

there is also a lot of potential in one or two pearl-less pearl islands! basing on the water is pretty novel and is a fine means of preventing a random base-burning. it would certainly, if nothing else, give people more excuses to look around

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they only release a few sea related updates, i dont know why people keep saying "empty, empty, ..."

they didnt finish with sea updates and, very obviously, they will not let the sea empty

as devs they know what they will add. they dont make every update in that month. They have a general idea of what will be the sea but they cant add everything in 2 updates because maybe that brokes a rymth that they want to have for each update

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I can’t find the post now but Klei made it pretty clear that the return of them would be the foundation for every single update that follows after it.

Looking at it on paper I can easily see why: They gave us an Ocean and regardless of how empty or how full of life that ocean is- One thing is absolute undeniable certainty, Each update (with the exception of maybe Forgotten Knowledge.. I dunno cause I haven’t played the new update enough to find out..) Each update has added NEW boat upgrade items- 

Turn of Tides added boats themselves + most the basic Boating structures.

Salty Dog added Malbatross Sail for faster boat exploration +’Salt Box to preserve foods for longer then Ice Box will (why do we even need these things at all UNLESS Klei plans for us to spend A LOT of extended trips on the ocean?)

Hook, Line & Inker added Tackle Box and Tin Fishing bin (more content to put on boat for extended ocean trips)

She Sells Seashells added Pinching Winch to place on boat to fish stuff up out of the Water (what is really the point unless some really good stuff will be added here someday?)

Troubled Waters added the most interesting of all boat structures, Masts that can be upgraded with Lightning Rod abilities or Street Lamp abilities and if that’s not a clear indication that Klei wants us to spend lots of time on boats I don’t know what is.

Forgotten Knowledges- ????? (Don’t know but I’m pretty sure there’s something)

Conclusion- Return of Them and boating/ocean content as a Whole feels more like a teaser beta of what’s to come.

And the TL:DR of my post here without going into some long broken record rant of how much I’d like to see SW/Ham content added to DST... Bottom Line: Klei gave us a Boat & as I just explained each update has added new structures to make using that boat for significantly longer periods of time easier.

NOW I’m just begging Klei to put a bunch of Themed Islands into the game each Island with its own unique Atmosphere, Weather Patterns, Enemy Mobs & give me an actual REASON to WANT to build a boat and Sail DSTs currently Empty-ish Ocean Content.

Klei has already proven they can give an island its own unique effects with Lunar & Lunacy... so really everything up to this point has just felt like (and hopefully no offense to anyone at Klei who has worked hard & tirelessly to provide us all the updates we have now..) BETA content- as in a small taste of what’s to come.

Now listen to me and understand me very clearly... The full and completed version of DSTs ocean content may not actually be fully complete until 5 years from now..

Because the way I see things is pretty simple: I have a Boat & tons of structures to place on said boat to have me spend extended periods of time on that boat.... now just give me places to actually WANT to build a boat and sail into new horizons towards.

Here’s the official description of Return of Them.

 

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1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

I can’t find the post now but Klei made it pretty clear that the return of them would be the foundation for every single update that follows after it.

That was not referring to return of them as a whole, but rather turn of tides.
And if you think about it that was exactly what turn of tides was, adding a foundation upon which updates afterwards would expand.

2 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

they only release a few sea related updates, i dont know why people keep saying "empty, empty, ..."

they didnt finish with sea updates and, very obviously, they will not let the sea empty

as devs they know what they will add. they dont make every update in that month. They have a general idea of what will be the sea but they cant add everything in 2 updates because maybe that brokes a rymth that they want to have for each update

I get what you mean, but after about a year of updates, the sea still feels super barebones in a lot of areas and that's just weird since most updates were centred around the ocean.

Most updates added a couple of small things each time and nothing that I would consider particularly big, which given the release schedule isn't too big of a surprise. 
Still, it's pretty ironic in my opinion that for turn of tides we were told how we shouldn't expect too much content for the first update since it focuses on laying down a foundation, but then it ended up being one of the beefier updates out of the return of them updates so far.

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1 hour ago, Well-met said:

seems clear to me once the mysterious energy is completed it could very well be the end of RoT.

DST updates will have long ended in five years, don't you worry about it.

do you want the updates to end?its just a question that im wondering 

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Just now, stranger again said:

do you want the updates to end?its just a question that im wondering 

I think it's less about wanting them to end and more just expecting them to end at this point.

Wouldn't you know it, the new patch has fixed one issue I had with the ocean.

...Too bad that's a small part of it but hey it's something!

 

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1 minute ago, Freshness said:

I think it's less about wanting them to end and more just expecting them to end at this point.

why? is it because klei has been updating dst for a while now?from what ive seen the people working at klei seem to be passionate about working on dst and theyve still got a lot of characters they could rework (and they did say they are planning or reworking all of them)so from what seen they could still be working on dst for another year or two

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33 minutes ago, stranger again said:

why? is it because klei has been updating dst for a while now?from what ive seen the people working at klei seem to be passionate about working on dst and theyve still got a lot of characters they could rework (and they did say they are planning or reworking all of them)so from what seen they could still be working on dst for another year or two

A year or two =/= five years.

I'm not saying they'll just stop right here and now. That'd be super weird.

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Let me just remind people that they added Beefalo taming, fences and fence gates to single player don’t starve-

Now here’s what people don’t get, Single Player DS Did not actually NEED those things, Enemies in DST have higher health then their DS Solo counter parts, so in DST Beef would prove to be more useful, they only did it in DS Solo as a QoL thing.. To show that they still love their precious babies & to provide them with new content.

Now depending on when and where you hopped aboard the DS franchise we can date back beyond 2013.. and that to me is truly amazing, because it shows that Klei works on their OWN Schedule, they aren’t pressured by EA for example to release a sequel every year.

No Klei adds what they want, when they want, WHERE They want to their games.

So to dismiss my opinion that DST will still be getting content updates 5 years from now, is to Dismiss that Klei still updates Solo DS when they did not ever have to.


Particularly the Bottom paragraph where they state sweeping changes to the core of DST isn’t their content focus right now.. but to keep sending that feedback to them anyway because Don’t Starve Together isn’t going anywhere anytime soon.

They also heavily hinted that the FUTURE of DST is Cross-Platform play between PC, Playstation, Xbox & Nintendo..

The last of those does not even exist as a thing yet.

Cross-Platform Play..

That to me sounds less like Return of Them being the last & final thing “The End now go buy DST 2” and more like RoT is A Thing and when it’s done we will start A Whole New Thing.

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14 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

try to change all the way, hardware, nets, etc to keep working because a pandemic

maybe for you is easy to be in the pc playing but for others this pandemic has hit hard

Didn't know the pandemic was already that bad in may 2019, but whatever.

Not saying it's not an issue, by god no, but it wasn't even officially considered a pandemic prior to march 2020, which was 10 months after rot's announcement, not to mention that between march and now is an additional 7 months that they have been working on updates. At least as far as I know.

I know myself damn well how hard the pandemic is hitting everyone, especially since I'm living in a region where number of newly infected are rising each day and we are currently experiencing another lockdown (sort of, schools are still open and students have to attend.).

Regardless, I'm just gonna drop this particular topic here as it's just very touchy and stirring it further is not gonna help it either.

Sorry if I was disrespectful in any way.

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1 hour ago, Freshness said:

.

Sorry if I was disrespectful in any way.

nah man you just gave your opinion and thats perfectly fine you dont have to say sorry if you havent done anything wrong 

hope you have a great day or night wherever you are:D

k bye

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7 hours ago, Freshness said:

Didn't know the pandemic was already that bad in may 2019, but whatever.

Not saying it's not an issue, by god no, but it wasn't even officially considered a pandemic prior to march 2020, which was 10 months after rot's announcement, not to mention that between march and now is an additional 7 months that they have been working on updates. At least as far as I know.

I know myself damn well how hard the pandemic is hitting everyone, especially since I'm living in a region where number of newly infected are rising each day and we are currently experiencing another lockdown (sort of, schools are still open and students have to attend.).

Regardless, I'm just gonna drop this particular topic here as it's just very touchy and stirring it further is not gonna help it either.

Sorry if I was disrespectful in any way.

Discussing what you want to see in the game is healthy for the franchise as a whole, while not all ideas will be used- Klei still gets a fairly rough idea of what their fanbase really wants to see happen, and they will know what to invest most their time & resources into the more people are vocal about what they want to see happen 

for example I want to see SW/Ham content in DST, that is something I talk about like a broken record but for that to be something that JUST I wanted... it would NOT be a Worthwhile investment for them to endeavor into, luckily for me though it seems to be one of the most highly requested things people ask about.

Will it happen? That’s anyone’s guess- but will it happen because of you or me? Oh hell naw man.. NOTHING ever happens because a single person wants it, it’s gotta be something that’s highly popular, or Klei themselves actually wanted to do anyway.

Look at the QoL updates- we wouldn’t even have those if it wasn’t for players voicing their opinions on what they would like to see changed/improved.

So- Keep voicing your opinion, and care less who you offend with it, until you offend someone on a personal level- Or you offend Klei, both of which well would be bad.. but one should never be afraid to share their ideas and opinions so long as you remember to follow community guidelines..

And DO NOT post anything that’s even mildly inappropriate K thanks, Bye <3

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18 hours ago, stranger again said:

do you want the updates to end?its just a question that im wondering 

No, but having experience with TF2 I learned the honey moon can abruptly end and reality sets back in very hard.

DST isn't exactly young anymore.

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22 minutes ago, Well-met said:

No, but having experience with TF2 I learned the honey moon can abruptly end and reality sets back in very hard.

DST isn't exactly young anymore.

Neither is solo DS.. and Solo DS still got an update for Beefalo taming, fences & fence posts- Things the game didn’t really need because the enemies in Solo DS have less health than their DST counterparts.

To continue to update a game from 2013 gives me confidence that DST will still be getting content updates 5 years from now.

And provided that the following doesn’t happen: The World Ends, or I Die, I hope I’m still around to enjoy that content 5 years from now.

Now rather scarily my Grandfather always said he felt like the world would end in 2012, even when he was young and healthy he ALWAYS said that, he Died in 2012 so for HIM his world did end.

My point though- is that if the 2013 DS Solo can still get updates and DLC- the 2017 DST has a long ways to go before it’s ran its time.

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"Needing" should be important for the ocean. They could add tons of creatures, monsters or items on sea but until we don't need, its not necessary. But sadlt only alternative buildings/items needs ocean stuffs at all. There should be special buildings with only could be crafted with ocean materials. I mean yeah, you can use saltbox instead of icebox or cookiecutterhelmet instead of football helmet but you don't have to. They should add new mechanics, so we could have to.

Like fishfarms, pearls (to use on magic) etc.

But like  this guy said

On 11/3/2020 at 6:04 PM, ArubaroBeefalo said:

they didnt finish with sea updates

I don't they are finished sea. But I was think same about hamlet too o.0

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