Heat movement challenge.

[Zarquan]

1 hour ago, ghkbrew said:

If so, he's failed. Super coolant has more than 10x the SHC and a higher boiling point and will flake off a 500C tile...

I declare sulfur to still be useless, order is restored to the ONIverse.

I disagree about the certainty of your assertion.  To have a proper boiler setup with supercoolant, you need hundreds of tons of supercoolant to properly do this.  This is prohibitively expensive in my mind.  Additionally, the higher boiling point doesn't necessarily help, as you don't just want the liquid to boil, but you want it to boil quickly.  It is possible that sulfur could be better in some situations.  If you can boil 20 kg/s supercoolant or 200+ kg/s sulfur, I might prefer the 200+ kg/s sulfur.

EDIT:  This is because I am not certain flaking is the best course of action here.

[mathmanican]

1 hour ago, ghkbrew said:

Super coolant has more than 10x the SHC and a higher boiling point and will flake off a 500C tile

Haha!!  Yep.  I forgot that the boiling point is NOT 530ish C (petros), but rather 436.8C.    Let's change the challenge to 400C (rather than 500C), otherwise I'm pretty sure supercoolant will win the day with ease.  

[ghkbrew]

59 minutes ago, Zarquan said:

I disagree about the certainty of your assertion. 

It's Ok, I have an un-shakable faith that sulfur is useless.

1 hour ago, Zarquan said:

To have a proper boiler setup with supercoolant, you need hundreds of tons of supercoolant to properly do this.  This is prohibitively expensive in my mind.

Well, I was mostly speaking in the context of this challenge, where I didn't think feasibility in survival was an issue.  I don't think I've ever run across any infinite mass 500C tiles in a normal game.

1 hour ago, Zarquan said:

Additionally, the higher boiling point doesn't necessarily help, as you don't just want the liquid to boil, but you want it to boil quickly.

I think the ultimate goal is to conduct heat away from the infinite mass tile as fast as possible.  In this context, I agree with @mathmanican's assertion that flaking is the fastest way to conduct heat, since it completely ignore thermal conductivity.  Assuming you're using flaking then.  You are limited to raising 5kg per tick per surface of fluid from it's current temperature to it's boiling point.  So, you want the heat of that transition to be as large as possible.  That means high SHC and high boiling point.

1 hour ago, Zarquan said:

EDIT:  This is because I am not certain flaking is the best course of action here.

Fair enough, it does remain to be proved.  Even so, I think you're better off using the higher SHC and higher conductivity substance.

[Zarquan]

16 minutes ago, ghkbrew said:

I think the ultimate goal is to conduct heat away from the infinite mass tile as fast as possible.  In this context, I agree with @mathmanican's assertion that flaking is the fastest way to conduct heat, since it completely ignore thermal conductivity.  Assuming you're using flaking then.  You are limited to raising 5kg per tick per surface of fluid from it's current temperature to it's boiling point.  So, you want the heat of that transition to be as large as possible.  That means high SHC and high boiling point.

The thing is flaking boils 25 kg/s per flaking point.  That is a fixed amount of thermal conductivity, depending on the temperature of the liquid entering the boiler and the amount of heat it takes to boil it.  My concern is that this conductivity may be less than normal conduction.  For me, flaking could not handle the flow of sulfur I was using.  My current sulfur based design boils hundreds of kgs of sulfur per second. 

28 minutes ago, ghkbrew said:

Well, I was mostly speaking in the context of this challenge, where I didn't think feasibility in survival was an issue.  I don't think I've ever run across any infinite mass 500C tiles in a normal game.

The 500 C block is meant to be analogous to a relatively hot continuous heat source with a relatively small access point, like a rocket chimney with hydrogen rockets which hasn't spiraled out of control.

Of course, this isn't a perfect analogy, as a rocket chimney has heat spikes and has a quite large surface area to pull heat from.  But if we have some attempts and some exploration, I'm sure we will find some cool tricks or engineering techniques we haven't seen before.

This is why I said "Keep it reasonable."  I would like the structures to be reasonable to see in a base with massive heat sources.

[wachunga]

Free flowing high pressure gas is surprisingly good due to the hidden 25x multiplier for gas to solid cells.

 

Lets say the heat is being used for turbines and the working fluid is being returned at 100C for ease of comparison:

Flaking 100C liquid supercoolant to 439.85C gaseous supercoolant is 14,342 kJ of heat transfer per tick. (8.44*5*339.85), SHC*Mass*TempDelta.

Igneous @ 500C conducting to Steam @ 100C is 1,213 kJ. (SQRT(2*.184)*25*400*0.2), ConductivityGeoMean*GasToSolidMultiplier*TempDelta*Constant.

Aluminum @ 500C conducting to Steam @ 100C is 12,283 kJ. (SQRT(205*.184)*25*400*0.2)

Thermium @ 500C conducting to Steam @ 100C is 25,450 kJ. (SQRT(220*.184)*25*2*400*0.2), thermium adds another hidden 2x multiplier.

 

If the heat source was a thermium block instead of igneous or if you contrived a way to very quickly dump heat from the igneous to thermium, simple cell-cell conduction beats out supercoolant flaking. The question then becomes can you contrive more thermium to steam conductions or supercoolant flaking points. Of course it's not that simple. In an igneous to thermium to steam chain, the thermium will be at some equilibrium instead of 500C. And we didn't even look at using shift plate or bridges!

[gabberworld]

the fastest transfer what i tested was tunnel, with one side diamond and another side the metal Thermium and also Thermium plate

i really not need use those tho atm so not tested other methods at all.

soo if we know that diamond is fast heat transfer instead off copper, when we start see diamond Laptops

[mathmanican]

3 hours ago, wachunga said:

Of course it's not that simple. In an igneous to thermium to steam chain, the thermium will be at some equilibrium instead of 500C.

Bingo.  Any regular conduction mechanic will reach an equilibrium that is not at 500C, and so at some point will be throttled by this issue. My thoughts were to see how large a region I can keep above 450 or so, and then flake 100C supercoolant into gas (as this part I know I can keep going without conduction heat bleed between the 450 heat region, and 100C super coolant).  This is why I think flaking will win the challenge, hands down, but I have not yet designed the contraption. Ideas are brewing, and the discussion is fun.  

There will be all kinds of bridge/tempshift plates in my 450C region. That area will be a massive mess, most likely sitting in a pile of liquid petroleum (I want to use the 625 multiplier for transfer). Should be fun. 

[ghkbrew]

Ok, here's my entry:

It's using two surfaces to continously flake super coolant.  5kg/t * 5t/s * 2 surfaces = 100kg/s of gaseous super coolant at 435C. The super coolant condenses in the air flow tiles and gets teleported up into the heat exchanger.  The now liquid super coolant counter flows against an incoming stream of 95C water / steam.

I'm using the infinite liquid sources mod to produce a stream 320kg/s of 95C water.  Representing the exhaust water of 160 turbines.  And a door crusher to consume the steam.

Spoiler

If you were crazy enough to do this in survival you could set up something like I had for an earlier attempt:

Only twice the size.

 

This setup is converting 320kg/s 95C water into ~194C steam = 320 * 99 * 4.179 = 132390.7 kJ/s of useful energy.  That's about 90% efficiency in heat exchanger.

 

Materials:

Spoiler

Other than a few tons of super coolant there's nothing too exotic.  The heat exchanger is all aluminum except for the conveyor bridges which are steel.  You could really use metal there, you'd just need to make it longer for the same efficiency.

 

[mathmanican]

I'm not done with this yet, but here is a version that uses sulfur.  The nice part about sulfur is I can use much cooler temps to keep the flaking going (which is false with super coolant). I'll have to stagger the petro chambers in the middle to avoid overpressure damage at some point, but I wonder how tall I can make this. Finally had some time to play, and @ghkbrew has already tackled supercoolant.  Time to see if I can beat it.   Probably can't. 

[babba]

All great stuff, I need a way to compress Dupes to half the height size so I can build that without editor

Wish list: Dupe Size Compressor or Dupe Creeper.

A Dupe Creeper ( aka Bob the Builder ) can only build, but is able to creep through 1 tile high zones.

[TheMule]

On 10/20/2020 at 8:34 PM, Zarquan said:

I never read your post on the matter.  I recall that they were running the steam turbine full tilt on 110 C steam, which I flagged in my head as "glitchy."  I didn't look to deep in to it because I am happy with my steam turbines cooling to 125 C, but I now I believe they were using extremely hot steam on the other side.

Maybe this one: 

it doesn't qualify as a split turbine setup, since nothing is actually "split".

It does heat steam selectively in one tile under the turbines to trigger them. Turbine need only one tile at 125C to start operating so I think there's no glitch involved, only clever thinking.

 

[thegroundbelow]

On 10/20/2020 at 2:26 PM, Saturnus said:

I have no idea how you can even come to that conclusion.

I'd rather think it's because he didn't fully understand one particular detail about how steam turbines work, and from that you stated "That is just flat out wrong and just shows you don't understand the steam turbine at all."

Not fully understanding something != not understanding something at all.

[BENBUZZ790]

What happens if you mine this infinite mass block?

If it's allowed, I assume that the "optimal" solution would spread the mass out to speed up heat transfer.  Any of these set ups could be replicated multiple times to extract more heat.

 

I.e. the fastest way to move heat is usually to move mass.  Just pick up the block and move it somewhere else.

[Zarquan]

1 hour ago, BENBUZZ790 said:

What happens if you mine this infinite mass block?

If it's allowed, I assume that the "optimal" solution would spread the mass out to speed up heat transfer.  Any of these set ups could be replicated multiple times to extract more heat.

 

I.e. the fastest way to move heat is usually to move mass.  Just pick up the block and move it somewhere else.

Normally, when you mine a block, you get half the mass as debris.  When the block is over 200,000 kg, it always mines to 100,000 kg.