ONI "Lag"

[Phantom775]

Hi there! I'm on cycle 790 of the game, and have been starting to experience 'lag'

It's not lag from frame drops, but rather lag with path finding. I'm still getting 40-60 FPS, and would like to know if anyone else has a similar issue or could give some tips to fix it? 

 

Specs:

Ryzen 5 3600

GTX 750 TI

16 gb ddr4 @ 3200 mhz

ONI is on a SSD

 

Thank you!

 

Edit: See page two for more info

[Glassyfo]

37 minutes ago, Phantom775 said:

Hi there! I'm on cycle 790 of the game, and have been starting to experience 'lag'

It's not lag from frame drops, but rather lag with path finding. I'm still getting 40-60 FPS, and would like to know if anyone else has a similar issue or could give some tips to fix it? 

 

Specs:

Ryzen 5 3600

GTX 750 TI

16 gb ddr4 @ 3200 mhz

ONI is on a SSD

 

Thank you!

Welcome to elite ONI!

[Gurgel]

You probably have triggered a limiter in the CPU time spent each game cycle for path finding. As this is a real-time application, they just have to stop more complex activities to keep the whole thing from stalling. The way to fix this is to not have too many dupes and to have a mostly star-shaped set of paths.

[SharraShimada]

If a certain destination can be reached by 2 paths = double the CPU time needed to find the way. 10 dupes = 20 times the cpu time. 3 paths? 60 times the amount of calculations. And there you are.... Given your dupes have mostly short paths, the game does those calculations several times a minute all over and over and over again. 

[JRup]

1 hour ago, SharraShimada said:

If a certain destination can be reached by 2 paths = double the CPU time needed to find the way. 10 dupes = 20 times the cpu time. 3 paths? 60 times the amount of calculations. And there you are....

This!

Remember you're not only ranching critters, you're ranching dupes! They only happen to scuttle about... use "show navigation" and you'll see what they're up to. Also, I used to have areas limited by atmo suits (for example 5 suits for 1 half of the oil biome and 5 for the other half) then I switched to requiring atmo suit use outside and builds got slower on account of dupes now doing lots of "other" stuff... so you win some and compromise on some.

Also: same cpu here, 16gb @2666, rx480 and using nvme raid10... I hate load and saving times...

[KittenIsAGeek]

4 hours ago, Phantom775 said:

Hi there! I'm on cycle 790 of the game, and have been starting to experience 'lag'

It's not lag from frame drops, but rather lag with path finding. I'm still getting 40-60 FPS, and would like to know if anyone else has a similar issue or could give some tips to fix it? 

 

Specs:

Ryzen 5 3600

GTX 750 TI

16 gb ddr4 @ 3200 mhz

ONI is on a SSD

 

Thank you!

OK, so here's some tips to help alleviate the problem.  But, first, some interesting info about your specs...

• Ryzen 5 3600 -- Nice!  Decent CPU speed, decent amount of processor cores.. ONI only really seems to use 2 cores, so that leave headroom for your operating system.
• GTX 750 Ti -- Irrelevant.  This game is not limited by the graphics engine.  In fact, as far as graphics go, a pretty basic card will cover all your needs.  Heck, I'm running on the stupid built in intel graphics of my CPU that cries for mercy with most other games.
• 16gb DDR4 @ 3200 mhz -- Probably the most useful of your stats.  Because of the amount of data shuffled between the Memory and the CPU, the bandwidth of your RAM is a significant bottle neck.  Is your RAM dual- or triple-channel?  That can make a big difference.  Still, its a lot better than DDR3...  Also, I definitely recommend 16gb of RAM if you play ONI.  Hitting the swap file during this game really really sucks.  I've found that with an old base (1000+ cycles), my OS + Game  + Firefox uses a tad over 12gb of RAM.    This game WILL run on 8gb, but you won't be very happy with it.
• ONI is on a SSD -- useful for faster end-of-cycle saves, but beyond that I haven't really noticed a difference.  The save files are relatively small, and they're completely loaded into RAM at the start of the game.

 

OK, now some tips I use:

1. Don't open large areas of the map unless you need to.  Gasses use the most CPU time, as you'll be calculating temperature changes, "pressure" changes, and gas movements.  Vacuum uses the least, but the next best is solid tiles, as only temperature change calculations will be made.
2. Try to reduce the variety of differing gasses in as many of your rooms as possible.  It really makes a difference if you can keep the core of your base predominantly oxygen with only a little CO2 from dupe's breathing.
3. Reduce the numbers of paths your dupes can take.  For example, if you have a barracks with 6 or 8 beds, the only dupes that can access that room are the ones that sleep there.  If there are less possible paths for any particular dupe to travel, the number of pathing calculations drops considerably.
4. Massive critter ranches can cause problems, especially if they're fliers.  100 hatches? No problems.. 100 shine bugs? You might notice the hit.
5. If you use storage lockers, try to limit the materials kept in a locker to a single type.  I.e. sandstone in one, igneous in the next.  I don't know if things have changed, but a while back there would be thermal energy calculations for each individual type.  A single type will 'average' as new material is added, but multiple types get multiple calculations.

 

There's probably some more tips, but those generally work for me.  The idea is that you want to cut down the number of calculations where you can.  For every explored tile on your map, there can be multiple calculations every tick of the game, which is one reason that older bases slow down -- more of the map has been opened up, so more calculations are being made.

[JRup]

 

8 minutes ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

Is your RAM dual- or triple-channel? 

This will depend on the build. Ryzen builds will at most have dual channel configuration. There are some specifics for 16GB ram.
You will get single channel performance if:

• You only use a single 16gb stick. Or,
• Use two 8GB sticks on the same channel. (Please don't, setting dual channel is easy)

Most motherboards have 4 slots and the way to set it up as a dual channel config can be found on the manual.

If one wants more than dual channel then a different processor line would be necessary, TR comes to mind for a quad channel config... Big bucks would be in this kind of box, however.

I'm not that familiar with the intel side of things, I do recall the neat days of triple channel DDR3 on LGA1366 - Don't know if they decided more than 2 channels were not something to do in mainstream anymore.

[KittenIsAGeek]

2 hours ago, JRup said:

I do recall the neat days of triple channel DDR3 on LGA1366 - Don't know if they decided more than 2 channels were not something to do in mainstream anymore.

Yeah, my board is triple-channel DDR3.  I don't know much about the Ryzen stuff.  I haven't been able to upgrade my computer for far too long... At least 5 years now.

[JRup]

1 hour ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

At least 5 years now.

Pretty good, I'd continue on it 'til it gives up the ghost or seriously need something better.

[Gurgel]

7 hours ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

Yeah, my board is triple-channel DDR3.  I don't know much about the Ryzen stuff.  I haven't been able to upgrade my computer for far too long... At least 5 years now.

Triple channel is an Intel-only thing that does not really make much sense, except from a marketing perspective maybe. AMD is dual-channel or quad-channel (Thread Ripper).

 

[JRup]

They didn't do much in this aspect.... It was mostly a workstation/server thing... A little background:

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-channel_memory_architecture#Triple-channel_architecture

TL;DR: Cool feature, nixed too early. Their product segmentation sucks serious Christmas decorations.

 

 

[Gurgel]

1 hour ago, JRup said:

They didn't do much in this aspect.... It was mostly a workstation/server thing... A little background:

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-channel_memory_architecture#Triple-channel_architecture

TL;DR: Cool feature, nixed too early. Their product segmentation sucks serious Christmas decorations.

Well, it depends. While it does increase throughout a bit, it makes the "pipeline" longer and causes mismatch with caches and pages. As multi-threading latency sucks already on Intel (as the FPS comparisons between Intel and AMD where things are subjectively smooth for ONI did show, for example), the additional negative impact is probably not too bad. It still is a decision that makes no sense engineering-wise. 

[KittenIsAGeek]

6 hours ago, Gurgel said:

it makes the "pipeline" longer and causes mismatch with caches and pages.

Well, that certainly explains the occasional memory errors that I couldn't track down.   It doesn't actually cause a problem the majority of the time, but once in a great while I'll get a process that locks up.  The only reliable way I can trigger the problem is to run a memory test. They always fail by freezing the machine.

[Gurgel]

2 hours ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

Well, that certainly explains the occasional memory errors that I couldn't track down.   It doesn't actually cause a problem the majority of the time, but once in a great while I'll get a process that locks up.  The only reliable way I can trigger the problem is to run a memory test. They always fail by freezing the machine.

Interesting. Sounds like some rarely triggered bug in the hardware. As they had to do some non-standard things to get 3 banks to work, this would not surprise me.

[TheMule]

I've experenced something similar:

it was triggered randomly by ONI, both on Windows and Linux w/o any difference.

Most other games seemed to run smoothly, until I found another game that crashed too. It was memory related (above 8GB) but finally I tracked it down to a voltage problem on the motherboard.

It seems the low voltage was causing problems only when all banks were active at the same time, and the video card. It's very possible that ONI changed the allocation policy slightly and that's why my troubles started minutes after the update landed.

[JRup]

5 hours ago, TheMule said:

It was memory related

Did you get it fixed? (Also, I can only think of running a memtest to make sure no ram sticks are bad)

5 hours ago, TheMule said:

voltage problem on the motherboard.

Were you somehow manually adjusting voltages for ram?
If not then, you could have fiddled around with LLC settings. That should've helped somewhat...

Of course, going into hardware issues is a little beast in itself..

[Phantom775]

On 8/27/2020 at 7:05 PM, KittenIsAGeek said:

OK, so here's some tips to help alleviate the problem.  But, first, some interesting info about your specs...

• Ryzen 5 3600 -- Nice!  Decent CPU speed, decent amount of processor cores.. ONI only really seems to use 2 cores, so that leave headroom for your operating system.
• GTX 750 Ti -- Irrelevant.  This game is not limited by the graphics engine.  In fact, as far as graphics go, a pretty basic card will cover all your needs.  Heck, I'm running on the stupid built in intel graphics of my CPU that cries for mercy with most other games.
• 16gb DDR4 @ 3200 mhz -- Probably the most useful of your stats.  Because of the amount of data shuffled between the Memory and the CPU, the bandwidth of your RAM is a significant bottle neck.  Is your RAM dual- or triple-channel?  That can make a big difference.  Still, its a lot better than DDR3...  Also, I definitely recommend 16gb of RAM if you play ONI.  Hitting the swap file during this game really really sucks.  I've found that with an old base (1000+ cycles), my OS + Game  + Firefox uses a tad over 12gb of RAM.    This game WILL run on 8gb, but you won't be very happy with it.
• ONI is on a SSD -- useful for faster end-of-cycle saves, but beyond that I haven't really noticed a difference.  The save files are relatively small, and they're completely loaded into RAM at the start of the game.

 

OK, now some tips I use:

1. Don't open large areas of the map unless you need to.  Gasses use the most CPU time, as you'll be calculating temperature changes, "pressure" changes, and gas movements.  Vacuum uses the least, but the next best is solid tiles, as only temperature change calculations will be made.
2. Try to reduce the variety of differing gasses in as many of your rooms as possible.  It really makes a difference if you can keep the core of your base predominantly oxygen with only a little CO2 from dupe's breathing.
3. Reduce the numbers of paths your dupes can take.  For example, if you have a barracks with 6 or 8 beds, the only dupes that can access that room are the ones that sleep there.  If there are less possible paths for any particular dupe to travel, the number of pathing calculations drops considerably.
4. Massive critter ranches can cause problems, especially if they're fliers.  100 hatches? No problems.. 100 shine bugs? You might notice the hit.
5. If you use storage lockers, try to limit the materials kept in a locker to a single type.  I.e. sandstone in one, igneous in the next.  I don't know if things have changed, but a while back there would be thermal energy calculations for each individual type.  A single type will 'average' as new material is added, but multiple types get multiple calculations.

 

There's probably some more tips, but those generally work for me.  The idea is that you want to cut down the number of calculations where you can.  For every explored tile on your map, there can be multiple calculations every tick of the game, which is one reason that older bases slow down -- more of the map has been opened up, so more calculations are being made.

 

On 8/27/2020 at 5:43 PM, SharraShimada said:

If a certain destination can be reached by 2 paths = double the CPU time needed to find the way. 10 dupes = 20 times the cpu time. 3 paths? 60 times the amount of calculations. And there you are.... Given your dupes have mostly short paths, the game does those calculations several times a minute all over and over and over again. 

 

On 8/27/2020 at 6:57 PM, JRup said:

This!

Remember you're not only ranching critters, you're ranching dupes! They only happen to scuttle about... use "show navigation" and you'll see what they're up to. Also, I used to have areas limited by atmo suits (for example 5 suits for 1 half of the oil biome and 5 for the other half) then I switched to requiring atmo suit use outside and builds got slower on account of dupes now doing lots of "other" stuff... so you win some and compromise on some.

Also: same cpu here, 16gb @2666, rx480 and using nvme raid10... I hate load and saving times...

 

On 8/27/2020 at 4:54 PM, Gurgel said:

You probably have triggered a limiter in the CPU time spent each game cycle for path finding. As this is a real-time application, they just have to stop more complex activities to keep the whole thing from stalling. The way to fix this is to not have too many dupes and to have a mostly star-shaped set of paths.

All of these are great responses, and i apologize for my slow response as i don't frequent the forums. i have 21 dupes and 15 critters, but i use to have loads more (i'm running out of food lmao, all my pips starved bc of heat on the trees), i have mined out massive parts of the map, and had no airlocks anywhere except geysers because i'm not worried about weird gases in my base - until now lmao. so yeah to say the least, gas is mixed everywhere. now i have been starting to make my storage containers only one material - since my dupes decided delivering 52.4 grams at a time (example number) was smart, when they have the max capacity of carrying. I've started to go the 'permasuit' route (where when dupes wake they put on atmosuits), however, i think this was my dumbest decision this whole play through. Although i'm on cycle 791, and progressing greatly, i think i'm going to restart with the new advice in mind (also because i only have 500k kcal left and that will last no time at all) heat has taken over everything from me not insulating my **5 Aquatuners** because i thought they only got up to around 200F (they're 314F currently lmao), thank you all for the helpful tips have a good day.

 

I have 2x8 gigs at 3200 mhz in slot 2 and 4 (as per MOBO manual) 

[Lutzkhie]

I dont know about GPU but my new gpu broke (I fixed it now) so i reverted back to an old GPU of mine and the FPS dropped to 20fps, when I fixed the new GPU I tested it on and viola fps back to ~75fps

anyone here know how hashcat hacking works? basically gpu takes the work of the cpu instead in finding the password which is very fast, maybe down the road the devs changed the game to allow it to use GPU resources for more power

[Phantom775]

1 minute ago, Lutzkhie said:

I dont know about GPU but my new gpu broke (I fixed it now) so i reverted back to an old GPU of mine and the FPS dropped to 20fps, when I fixed the new GPU I tested it on and viola fps back to ~75fps

i mean if you think about it doesn't bitcoin mining use gpu power for calculations? maybe it's used for calculations in oni too..?

[Lutzkhie]

Just now, Phantom775 said:

i mean if you think about it doesn't bitcoin mining use gpu power for calculations? maybe it's used for calculations in oni too..?

I know right, we have almost the same setup but my GPU is GTX1050ti my RAM is 16gb locked at 2933mhz because above it sometimes crashes (mobo issues not supporting) but im at 900+ cycles with 50ish fps

[KittenIsAGeek]

GPUs are awesome for vector maths.  Maybe they offloaded dupe pathfinding?

[TheMule]

17 hours ago, JRup said:

Did you get it fixed? (Also, I can only think of running a memtest to make sure no ram sticks are bad)

Were you somehow manually adjusting voltages for ram?
If not then, you could have fiddled around with LLC settings. That should've helped somewhat...

Of course, going into hardware issues is a little beast in itself..

Nope, no tweaks at all. The mb reported 2.9V on the 3.3V input. Memtest was fine, but so was the game played at lower res (almost stable). 

 

Fixed by disconnecting a chassis fan. Replacing the PSU is on my todo list. I haven't done it yet just because I'm considering replacing the whole thing. 

[JRup]

5 hours ago, TheMule said:

Replacing the PSU is on my todo list. I haven't done it yet just because I'm considering replacing the whole thing. 

The PSU is one of the things that happily move from one pc to another.... Unless you're considering the move from a standard hulky build to a mini-itx build or anything that can't use the good old atx psu size... or also those watt guzzling dual video card setups...

That being said, sooner rather than later when it comes to replacing PSU's is the way to go. Any online psu wattage calculator will give a good head start when choosing the power needs for it (don't skip the calculator step but nowadays 650w is kind of the sweet spot for everyone that's not doing anything too fancy) Also check reviews that do actual disassembly and real load testing, lots of reviews out there just focus on looks first and performance last which is misleading.

The risk of bad apples in PSU's is more than real and this is the spot where I give the least compromise, I mean why would anybody want something that can fry any and all components at the same time. Or think of it this way: nobody wants to lose their 300+ cycle base, regolith melter, sourgas boiler, dupe tear harvester for something like that.

 

16 hours ago, Phantom775 said:

Although i'm on cycle 791, and progressing greatly, i think i'm going to restart with the new advice in mind (also because i only have 500k kcal left and that will last no time at all)

Sorry to see a base go - would have liked to know if you'd already tried mushroom farming, the picture on the map kind of shows lots of slime biomes... Then there's the sourgas pimple at the bottom, oh noes. I mean well, now that I look at it, the cookie has indeed crumbled in lots of awkward places.

[Gurgel]

11 hours ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

GPUs are awesome for vector maths.  Maybe they offloaded dupe pathfinding?

Not really. Vector code is exceptionally bad at decision-heavy code like pathfinding. It is pretty good at finite-element type code like thermal exchange between cells all over the map.

[TheMule]

5 hours ago, JRup said:

The PSU is one of the things that happily move from one pc to another....

Me too. Problem is, this PSU is from three generations back... I've run a couple of calculators, both place my system below 450W, but that seems low. I know I can get a 450W PSU for less than 50EUR... 650W might be the way to go but I've also read that it's better to invest in quality rather than raw power.

So I've got my eyes on this https://eu.evga.com/products/product.aspx?pn=220-B3-0550-V2, only 550W but it's the same series of this one, which got a very good review: http://www.jonnyguru.com/blog/2017/07/24/evga-750-b3-750w-power-supply/6/