Please judge my sour gas boiler!

[suxkar]

After many attempts, I present you my take on sour gas boiler!

10kg/sec. The sour gas conversion is bead pump based on the left column, while the central-right part is the usual heat exchanger for methane.

It is cleary the wedding between the OSHA heater (thanks go to @NurdRage) and the sour gas boiler made by Francis John.

It additionally conveys the sulfur byproduct so that there is almost no chill waste. Automation makes it so that the sulphur is unloaded on top only if the whole rail line is full.

On the very top I initially put a steam room to catch heat in excess of 125C, but the temperature, through sulfur shipping, seems to stabilize at 90C.

So, before I build this monstrosity in survival, does anyway have tips, advice or criticism? I can also attach the savefile should anyone want to check it in game.

 

5e104d71ba6b0_StupidTiny.sav

[beowulf2010]

Yeah, a save file would be nice. 

Out of curiosity, what's the point of all the unused liquid vents in your oil drop column? 

[suxkar]

42 minutes ago, beowulf2010 said:

Yeah, a save file would be nice. 

Out of curiosity, what's the point of all the unused liquid vents in your oil drop column? 

I'm not sure why I didn't add the save immediately. Done!

It's 400kg each so it should help to store and transfer the heat, thought with a tower that tall they are probably not needed! I'll try to see what happens if I delete them!

[mathmanican]

7 hours ago, beowulf2010 said:

Out of curiosity, what's the point of all the unused liquid vents in your oil drop column?

Unfortunately, @NurdRage deleted the post he made where he explained this, otherwise I'd link it. Liquid beads fall down the tube, and need something that holds lots of mass to transfer heat to them.  Temp shift plates ruin the process. So instead, you use a liquid vent as a place holder to absorb heat. Cold beads falling are heated up by this 1 by 1 heat absorber. The rising hot gas is cooled down. Every 0.2 seconds this exchange takes place, and it's extremely efficient. Essentially, the liquid vents are there to hold heat in a specific tile, without transferring it to adjacent tiles. Perfect for a liquid bead boiler. 

13 hours ago, suxkar said:

So, before I build this monstrosity in survival, does anyway have tips, advice or criticism?

Have you played with bridges (wire, automation, liquid, etc) connecting the sour gas and methane regions, in addition to your plates. You clearly want the two regions to transfer heat. I wonder if adding these bridges would help you shrink the overall height by quite a bit.

[beowulf2010]

15 minutes ago, mathmanican said:

Unfortunately, @NurdRage deleted the post he made where he explained this, otherwise I'd link it. Liquid beads fall down the tube, and need something that holds lots of mass to transfer heat to them.  Temp shift plates ruin the process. So instead, you use a liquid vent as a place holder to absorb heat. Cold beads falling are heated up by this 1 by 1 heat absorber. The rising hot gas is cooled down. Every 0.2 seconds this exchange takes place, and it's extremely efficient. Essentially, the liquid vents are there to hold heat in a specific tile, without transferring it to adjacent tiles. Perfect for a liquid bead boiler. 

Ah, perfect. Would drywall behind the liquid vents help, hinder, or not affect this process? (At least I understand why tempshift plates hinder ) 

[mathmanican]

4 hours ago, beowulf2010 said:

Would drywall behind the liquid vents help, hinder, or not affect this process?

Should help. Give it a try, and let us know.   

[TripleM999]

7 hours ago, mathmanican said:

Have you played with bridges (wire, automation, liquid, etc) connecting the sour gas and methane regions, in addition to your plates. You clearly want the two regions to transfer heat. I wonder if adding these bridges would help you shrink the overall height by quite a bit.

They are perfect for this, as i have shown in my sour boiler build (i've added the missing overlays to the post). There are limitations though. Temp shift plates do not work that good in combination, they even reduce the efficiency, as they cover a 3x3 area, but without the temp shift plates one is limited in the width of the exchanger shafts.

In addition automation bridges do not seem to do much, maybe their weight is too low. With liquid and gas bridges one is limited by material choices. Wire and conveyor bridges made out of a highly conductive material are more than enough though for this purpose.

[beowulf2010]

1 hour ago, mathmanican said:

Should help. Give it a try, and let us know.   

I will when I have the time... Just spent the last 2.5 hours arguing with a 6yo about going to bed... 

[suxkar]

5 hours ago, mathmanican said:

Should help. Give it a try, and let us know.   

Will do! Also, I din't build it with space efficiency in mind. My first priority was being able to make one that works, which tbh I'm surprised it does I'll no try what you suggest! A question: I made the heat exchanger 3 tiles wide becuase I was scared gas movement wouldn't be fast enough without the bead mechanic, do you think it would be much different if it was 2 tiles wide? That would, theoretically, enhance heat exchange by a lot, especially if aided by conveyor bridges.
Also, I disabled the sulphur shipping, I think it lowered the output temp by a ridiculous 2-3C, and got rid of the molten aluminum pool at the bottom of the shaft, it was utterly useless (although it granted style points)

Oh another question. The wiki says that the output temperature of a natgas generator depends on input, while in-game it says it depends on the building temperature. Both agree PW will be in any case >40C and CO2 >110C.
I tested it a bit and it seems the output temperature doesn't really have a lower bound, both PW and CO2 were ejected at 21C from a natgas generator that was 21C. Is it because they exchanged heat from the building as soon as they got out? I could understand it for the CO2, but the PW free falls (mesh tiles), so it shouldn't even have been able to form a tile to exchange heat. Or is simply a typo and there is no lower bound?

 

Most important of all, can you confirm that it is the building temperature that counts for the output temperature?

Thank you daddy Mathmanican, it's nice to see you back in the forums!

 

4 hours ago, TripleM999 said:

They are perfect for this, as i have shown in my sour boiler build (i've added the missing overlays to the post). There are limitations though. Temp shift plates do not work that good in combination, they even reduce the efficiency, as they cover a 3x3 area, but without the temp shift plates one is limited in the width of the exchanger shafts.

In addition automation bridges do not seem to do much, maybe their weight is too low. With liquid and gas bridges one is limited by material choices. Wire and conveyor bridges made out of a highly conductive material are more than enough though for this purpose.

Can you link you boiler? I'm very curious to see what other people have achieved! (Read as: can't wait to shamelessly steal ideas)

[TripleM999]

4 minutes ago, suxkar said:

Can you link you boiler? I'm very curious to see what other people have achieved! (Read as: can't wait to shamelessly steal ideas)

It is in your first sour gas thread, i answered there with initial pics of my build, cause it was my very first post in the forum, so i couldn't add many pics. Now all overlays are included:

It includes some gas dynamic explanations regarding shaft length and width too. 

[Artorias36]

What is the point of cooking sour gas? I mean sour gas is a product of heated petrolium, isn't better to just use petrolium on a generator instead of turning it in to sour gas, which will turn into nat gas?

[TripleM999]

8 minutes ago, Artorias36 said:

What is the point of cooking sour gas? I mean sour gas is a product of heated petrolium, isn't better to just use petrolium on a generator instead of turning it in to sour gas, which will turn into nat gas?

1kg crude oil can be turned into 1 kg petroleum, which the pet generator will generate 1kw from. 1kg petroleum can be turned into 1kg sour gas, which can be converted to 667g of nat gas. This 667g nat gas can be used for 7.4kw of power.

Additionally, petroleum generator generates 250g carbon dioxide and 375g PW per kg petroleum. Natural gas generator generates 166.75g of carbon dioxide and 500g PW per kg petroleum converted to sour gas/nat gas.

[mathmanican]

9 hours ago, suxkar said:

A question: I made the heat exchanger 3 tiles wide becuase I was scared gas movement wouldn't be fast enough without the bead mechanic, do you think it would be much different if it was 2 tiles wide?

See @TripleM999's post on gas flow that is linked above. I wonder if 1 tile wide passageways would work up/down. In @TripleM999's post he has 1 tile wide left/right channels for the SG/NG exchange. I bet you could do something like it vertically. 

9 hours ago, suxkar said:

it granted style points

Always important.  

[suxkar]

With petroleum generators: 10kg/sec crude oil -->10kg/s petroleum --> through 5 petroleum gens you get 10KW and 3.75kg/s PW
With sour gas: 10kg/s crude --> 6.7Kg/s natgas --> through 75 natgas generator you get 60KW and 5kg/s PW

[TripleM999]

4 minutes ago, mathmanican said:

See @TripleM999's post on gas flow that is linked above. I wonder if 1 tile wide passageways would work up/down. In @TripleM999's post he has 1 tile wide left/right channels for the SG/NG exchange. I bet you could do something like it vertically. 

They work up/down too... but you have some overhead for the horizontal section.

Btw. to surpass 30kg one probably has to force gas movement... i was thinking about left/right forced movement through door pumps, as there is no downward equivalent to bead pumps.  My initial tries were not successful though.

[mathmanican]

9 hours ago, suxkar said:

Is it because they exchanged heat from the building as soon as they got out?

This is my guess.  I cannot confirm without running a test, but I'm sure you could do that as well.  I believe the water comes out at a minimum of 40C, otherwise we return to -180C NG generators creating massive cold sinks. 

[TripleM999]

1 minute ago, mathmanican said:

This is my guess.  I cannot confirm without running a test, but I'm sure you could do that as well.  I believe the water comes out at a minimum of 40C, otherwise we return to -180C NG generators creating massive cold sinks. 

I think, Klei indeed changed some mechanics, as many producing/converting building now output at their building temp.

[mathmanican]

3 minutes ago, TripleM999 said:

I think, Klei indeed changed some mechanics

If that is true, then we reintroduce tons of ways to cool your base, that are way too OP.  Seriously, if you can convert -180C NG to -180C PW (should be simple to test), then a google site search of the forums will show you all kinds of crazy ways to make massive amounts of cool stuff, at very little effort....

Last I read in the release notes was that outputs had a minimum temperature, and then output at building temp.  If the minimum has been removed....

[TripleM999]

12 minutes ago, mathmanican said:

If the minimum has been removed....

It is/was. Quick test:

I bet, it exits at building temp, although it is quite fluctuating. CO2 immidiately turns to solid as it follows building temps too. Although maybe there is more at work here, maybe, the building is influenced by intake temperatures and just does some ordinary heat exchange with intake and exhaust materials, which would be an improvement.

[suxkar]

17 minutes ago, mathmanican said:

If that is true, then we reintroduce tons of ways to cool your base, that are way too OP.  Seriously, if you can convert -180C NG to -180C PW (should be simple to test), then a google site search of the forums will show you all kinds of crazy ways to make massive amounts of cool stuff, at very little effort....

Last I read in the release notes was that outputs had a minimum temperature, and then output at building temp.  If the minimum has been removed....

I'm not sure what happeneed in my initial tests, but yes, the PW water does come out at precisely 40 minimum. The CO2, on the other hand, comes out at precisely the temp of the building, even in vacuum. I guess it might be some kind of bug similar to glass forge.

2 minutes ago, TripleM999 said:

It is/was. Quick test:

I bet, it exits at building temp, although it is quite fluctuating. CO2 immidiately turns to solid as it follows building temps too. Although maybe there is more at work here, maybe, the building is influenced by intake temperatures and just does some ordinary heat exchange with intake and exhaust materials, which would be an improvement.

It is exchanging heat directly with the building, try putting mesh tiles

[mathmanican]

4 minutes ago, TripleM999 said:

It is/was. Quick test:

 

2 minutes ago, suxkar said:

the PW water does come out at precisely 40 minimum.

These two comments seem contradictory. I'm sure you two can figure out which is right.

I would build my generator on mesh tiles, so the building cannot interact with the ground, and liquid can flow down.  There will be a brief 0,2s tick where the outgoing water interacts with the building, insta freezes, and the building heats up more than it should, if the 40C min is right.  

The CO2 coming out as solid does not surprise me.  There was a lot of debate the month or so before release about the changes they made, and I haven't seen any changes announced (though I have been much less active). 

[TripleM999]

7 minutes ago, suxkar said:

It is exchanging heat directly with the building, try putting mesh tiles

This is really funny... when i put mesh tiles, CO2 is leaving at NG input temps. When PW is interacting with the building, CO2 is leaving at interaction temps... IN VACUUM. So probably the exhausts ARE interacting with the "building hotspot".

[mathmanican]

2 minutes ago, TripleM999 said:

So probably the exhausts ARE interacting with the "building hotspot".

Now you're on to something. Last year I put a compilation post together, to make finding information easier in a year.  It's about time to resurrect it. 

 

[TripleM999]

13 hours ago, mathmanican said:

These two comments seem contradictory. I'm sure you two can figure out which is right.

I usually use my nat gas generators with external water cooling, like injecting salt water or additional polluted water to keep the sauna below 200°C and get cleaned water. nat gas generators are much better at keeping temperature than petroleum generators.

PW is teleporting out of the Nat Gas Generator like with the liquid vent, not interacting with any building, at generator temperature or at 40°C, whichever is higher. It is to little to leave behind dirt, when vaporizing at the air flow tiles, as you can see:

Carbon Dioxide is leaving at generator temperature.

The temperatures of the intake gas has no influence, so one could easily dump massive amounts of heat into it. I tested it with 800°C natural gas.