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Raynic64

Change suggestions for Wigfrid

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Well, I think wigfrid deserves a buff or a rework because she should be as strong as wolfgang and she is not, I think she should have more unique weapons like a valkyrie axe that could have the damage of a fresh hambat but with very high durability somewhat similar to the axes of the hamlet's guards pigs but with the viking theme.
PS: I apologize for the misspellings
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Well, I think wigfrid deserves a buff or a rework because she should be as strong as wolfgang and she is not, I think she should have more unique weapons like a valkyrie axe that could have the damage of a fresh hambat but with very high durability somewhat similar to the axes of the hamlet's guards pigs but with the viking theme. PS: I apologize for the misspellings

 

FTFY.

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I personally think Wigfrid is fine the way she is. Besides, she got a buff a couple months back when they made it so that she can eat taffy now. The way I see it, she's a solid combat-supporter who also happens to be one of - if not the most newb-friendly character in the game. 

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5 minutes ago, Rinkusan said:

I personally think Wigfrid is fine the way she is. Besides, she got a buff a couple months back when they made it so that she can eat taffy now. The way I see it, she's a solid combat-supporter who also happens to be one of - if not the most newb-friendly character in the game. 

I wouldn't say newb-friendly as the carnivore diet is hard to deal with at that stage. Otherwise I'd agree with you.

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Wig seems a fairly balanced character to me, she has a cool set of permanent perks that are useful throughout the whole game, and her helmets are a good addition to any team, and remain relevant from day 1 to day 1000.

However all characters can be better, and If I had to change her I'd  make just two simple changes:

  • Give her battle-cries that boost all her allies around her for a couple of hits, just like she did at the forge. The boost should also work on non-players allies, meaning that she can boost human players as well as pigs, bunnymen, merms and spiders (if she's using the spiderhat). The boost can either be more damage, more resistance, life leeching powers, or a combinaiton of those.
  • Her spears fall flat in usefulness pretty fast. Let her upgrade her spears as the game progresses, giving them new powers. Perhaps there could be different tiers of upgrades you can do to those spears. EG:
    Spoiler

    Tier 0 being the current spear, unchanged.

    Tier 1 when you reach an alchemy station you can use one of those spears to craft an improved version, maybe give them tentacle spike damage, and much more durability.

    Tier 2 is shadow manipulator level, by adding nightmare fuel to it you can let the wielder of the spear deal damage in a straight line (remember the spear's perk at the forge?).

    Maybe tier 3 could be at the ruins, and adding thulecite and nightmare fuel, could maybe let you (or anyone using the spear) do the leap attack of the forge.

    Their damage will still be around tentacle spike damage, the point of making them is that they will be cheap and deal AOE. Dark swords will still be a thing.

     

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I like the idea of improving her battle spears for late-game hunting. Here, a couple ideas to add to OP's suggestion:

  • A grindstone crafting station that lets her improve her Battle Spears using other resources but would also not unlock the recipe when leaving
  • A whetstone craftable item that functions similarly to the grinding station, but with limited uses and portable functionality
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Wigfrid is a pretty balanced and good character right now, and I firmly believe that nerfing Wolfgang would be better than buffing Wigfrid.

The reasoning behind this position is that Wolfgang (along with Wick and Wx) are mechanically in a league of their own when compared with the rest of the characters while Wigfrid is in the upper middle of the pack.

I honestly think she’s the ideal balance point that we should aim other characters to, and when I wrote a Wolfgang rework he was deliberately nerfed down to her level.

Whenever a game offers different characters I tend to pick whomever the most combat focused one is, but Wolfgang is OP to the point it makes me uncomfortable without nerfing.

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11 hours ago, Raynic64 said:

Well, I think wigfrid deserves a buff or a rework because she should be as strong as wolfgang and she is not, I think she should have more unique weapons like a valkyrie axe that could have the damage of a fresh hambat but with very high durability somewhat similar to the axes of the hamlet's guards pigs but with the viking theme.
PS: I apologize for the misspellings

She doesn’t need a dmg bonus.What she need is a 1.33 stats modifier from food 

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52 minutes ago, Starving eater said:

She doesn’t need a dmg bonus.What she need is a 1.33 stats modifier from food 

Sorry, please elaborate I don't quite understand. Do you mean like Wolfgang, except that unlike Wolfgang she gets her own smaller damage boost?

Currently she has a permanent x1.25 dmg boost, which is quite useful and noticeable.

1 hour ago, Toros said:

[SNIP]

...I firmly believe that nerfing Wolfgang would be better than buffing Wigfrid.

[SNIP]

Im not sure about that, on one hand nerfing would make a lot of people unhappy, on the other hand not all characters need to be buffed on the same things.

For example, if Wigfrid gets what I suggested she will be better for overall DPS and survivability when you fight with other people, regardless if they are combat focused or not, or, if you or someone in your team is using an npc army. For fighting alone, or for just dedicating exclusively to deal the most damage, Wolfgang will still be better.

So this gives the player a choice, to pick whichever fits their need and likes better, instead of just overlapping both for exactly the same playstyle and the simpler formula that it all boil down to which one has better numbers.

In the end if killing bosses is someone's goal, just 6 Wolfgangs, experienced enough to produce enough food for everyone, can get the job done faster than any other combination of characters. But is it really fun for everyone? Is it really the point of the game? The fact that the characters have different approches to the situations is what I think, IMHO, makes the game richer. Wolfgang covers his spot pretty well, and a team composed by any group of people can appreciate a Wolfgang compensating any lack of dps they may have. I think that's his real niche.

Since wolfgang is top tier fighting already maybe his rework should revolve on another utility thing, instead of just nerfing it. In another topic it was suggested that when mighty he could carry heavy objects with little to no penalty, and even be able to toss around other players over some distance for some AOE damage upon them landing, or for letting them pass rivers or caves obstacles (sort of a coop lazy explorer).

TL; DR: Giving him a not fight related, smaller rework, could compensate the larger reworks and in some cases combat focused, the other characters are getting 

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8 hours ago, Canis said:

I wouldn't say newb-friendly as the carnivore diet is hard to deal with at that stage. Otherwise I'd agree with you.

As much as I understand this and hear it all the time, I still have to disagree. I think the only thing that separates people who think she's super newb-friendly from the people who think she's hard to manage is the fear of monster meat. Not a lot of people realize that Wigfrid can survive exclusively on cooked monster meat for the rest of eternity and be perfectly healthy and sane. 

If you do the math, on average, she should GAIN 5.25 health (excluding spider glands, which would increase this number) and lose 1.75 sanity per cooked monster meat thanks to her leeching perk. Obviously, if you decide to not eat all your monster meat (i.e. save some of them to put in the ice box when you or your teammate sets up a base), you end up GAINING sanity and even more health.

From what I've observed, the 2 biggest challenges newbies face when learning this game are managing hunger and combat. Wigfrid is arguably the single best fit for dealing with these 2 issues for newbies if you can get past the fear of monster meat.

This is all assuming, of course, that the Wigfrid newbie ISN'T killing moleworms or catcoons for "healthy meat" to supplement their monster meat diet; if they were, they'd be gaining even MORE health and sanity.

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2 hours ago, ShadowDuelist said:

Sorry, please elaborate I don't quite understand. Do you mean like Wolfgang, except that unlike Wolfgang she gets her own smaller damage boost?

Currently she has a permanent x1.25 dmg boost, which is quite useful and noticeable.

Im not sure about that, on one hand nerfing would make a lot of people unhappy, on the other hand not all characters need to be buffed on the same things.

For example, if Wigfrid gets what I suggested she will be better for overall DPS and survivability when you fight with other people, regardless if they are combat focused or not, or, if you or someone in your team is using an npc army. For fighting alone, or for just dedicating exclusively to deal the most damage, Wolfgang will still be better.

So this gives the player a choice, to pick whichever fits their need and likes better, instead of just overlapping both for exactly the same playstyle and the simpler formula that it all boil down to which one has better numbers.

In the end if killing bosses is someone's goal, just 6 Wolfgangs, experienced enough to produce enough food for everyone, can get the job done faster than any other combination of characters. But is it really fun for everyone? Is it really the point of the game? The fact that the characters have different approches to the situations is what I think, IMHO, makes the game richer. Wolfgang covers his spot pretty well, and a team composed by any group of people can appreciate a Wolfgang compensating any lack of dps they may have. I think that's his real niche.

Since wolfgang is top tier fighting already maybe his rework should revolve on another utility thing, instead of just nerfing it. In another topic it was suggested that when mighty he could carry heavy objects with little to no penalty, and even be able to toss around other players over some distance for some AOE damage upon them landing, or for letting them pass rivers or caves obstacles (sort of a coop lazy explorer).

TL; DR: Giving him a not fight related, smaller rework, could compensate the larger reworks and in some cases combat focused, the other characters are getting 

There are people who are going to be unhappy if Wolfgang gets nerfed regardless of the degree or what he might gain in return.  Given that those feelings are not rooted in reality, I don’t put a lot of stock in them.

I wrote a rework that lowers Wolf’s max hp while mighty, removes speed buff, lowers his sanity to 150, and gives him 1.3x sanity drain.  This was to give him an actual downside and make his perma-mighty less overwhelmingly OP.

Importantly, his up to 2x damage wasn’t affected, meaning 6 wolfgangs can still melt bosses similarly to before.

In exchange, he can carry heavy objects at 75% normal speed (everyone else moves at 25% speed) while mighty and ignores slowdown from marble armor and piggyback, making them upgrades if you can sustain mighty.  This makes it more of a tradeoff as in many cases normal and mighty form are equally useful but mighty form costs extra food.  You also take the full speed penalty if your mighty form wears off during combat in marble armor, so again it’s a  risk/reward.

Because Wolf has so many free stats and no meaningful weaknesses (food is plentiful and 1.1x sanity loss when you kill twice as fast becomes 0.55x sanity loss from bosses) you could cut out a lot, give more utility, and the core of the character is more balanced and more interesting.

Right now wolfgang is double health, double damage, triple hunger and built in walking cane once you automate your food production.  That doesn’t give the player more options to interact with the world, it just means once you get past a certain skill level Wolfgang is the easiest character to be effective with.

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That Wolfgang re-work sounds brilliant.

I agree the only "problem" with Wigfrid is that she is a combat focused character in a game with Wolfgang, who got all of everything that really mattered.  The concept of a "stand and trade" character just doesn't mesh well with the game where there aren't many reason to take damage in the first place.  With Wolfgang you can dodge easier and still output more damage.  What is the advantage of standing and trading?  Nothing really.  It costs more resources in gear and healing items, and is only viable in 1v1 fights.  You can't stand and trade against 6+ hounds.

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12 hours ago, Starving eater said:

She doesn’t need a dmg bonus.What she need is a 1.33 stats modifier from food 

I have said this before and I will say it again: Wigfrid doesn't need a 1.33 boost on hunger from eating meat foods.

Why? Because meat foods are designed to fill your hunger. Sure they might refill some health as well but that takes either difficult ingredients or gives you so much hunger it would be a waste to use it to heal. Look at meatballs. One meatballs will refill half of Wigfrid's hunger. And that's if she's starving. Now look at vegan foods. What's the best for hunger? A dragonpie. A fruit that needs to be 1. Farmed first. 2. Fed to a bird to get more. 3. Spoils faster than meat. Not to mention, it's pretty lategame. So what will Wurt eat in the earlygame? What will she do if she doesn't prepare for Winter?

See, Meat Foods recover alot of hunger. And I mean like alot. Giving Wigfrid that 1.33 buff will just make her waste food. Why kill a koalephant when most of it's meat will spoil anyways? Why challenge yourself when a rabbit everyday can fill you to full hunger?

As for Vegetables and Fruits, Wirt needs that 1.33 buff. Desperately. Not only does she need to wait for the farms to grow a crop that may or may not be good for hunger, the crops don't even give much hunger. Most crop foods specialise in one thing: Health or Sanity. There's very few crockpot vegan foods out there that will fill your hunger. There's only Dragonpie. That's all.

So I tell you: Wigfrid DOES NOT need a buff to her hunger gained from meat. Meat already recovers so much hunger and is laughably easy to get. Wurt, on the other hand, NEEDS that buff because crops: give little hunger, take too long to grow and is random. You might get something useless or you might get something good. It's a gamble unlike meat. For meat, it's always the same. You won't get a meat from a rabbit and you won't get a morsel from a Beefalo. It's not random. It's predictable.

So I hope the devs don't nerf Wigfrid by giving her this simply thought out idea. I hope they don't think "Welp, Wurt get moar hunga form vege! Gibe Wig dat to! Balans! Balans!"

Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk.

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4 hours ago, Shosuko said:

That Wolfgang re-work sounds brilliant.

I agree the only "problem" with Wigfrid is that she is a combat focused character in a game with Wolfgang, who got all of everything that really mattered.  The concept of a "stand and trade" character just doesn't mesh well with the game where there aren't many reason to take damage in the first place.  With Wolfgang you can dodge easier and still output more damage.  What is the advantage of standing and trading?  Nothing really.  It costs more resources in gear and healing items, and is only viable in 1v1 fights.  You can't stand and trade against 6+ hounds.

You’re welcome to try it, no bugs found in the last several hundred hours of playtesting, but you never know.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1205119975

With this mod Wolfgang has much higher damage but less effective health (200 vs Wig’s 200 + 25% damage reduction so effectively 250) and without the speed boost he has the same kiting pattern as everyone else.

This makes Wolf the higher risk/reward character and far less forgiving of being unprepared for combat and requires more food and sanity management.
 

To me, this puts them on close enough footing to fairly argue pros/cons.  Vanilla Wolf’s stats are just too high right now for Wig to compete mechanically as the combat character.

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On 29/11/2019 at 10:37 PM, ShadowDuelist said:

Sorry, please elaborate I don't quite understand. Do you mean like Wolfgang, except that unlike Wolfgang she gets her own smaller damage boost?

Currently she has a permanent x1.25 dmg boost, which is quite useful and noticeable

Oh,my bad.I mean,just keep her 1.25 dmg boost and have that 1.33 stat boost from food

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