Entrails Posted September 8, 2019 Share Posted September 8, 2019 So I discovered something on accident that I'm confused about. If you transport LOX using a minipump and its 1000g packets, it doesn't seem to burst the pipes if the LOX goes over the evaporation point. However if I use a full size liquid pump and its 10kg packets it definitely blows up the pipes when it goes above evap. Is this a bug or something? It takes a long time to fuel a rocket this way, but as I'm struggling to make enough insulated pipes made out of insulation, this is how I'm working around it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorsDux Posted September 8, 2019 Share Posted September 8, 2019 yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Entrails Posted September 8, 2019 Author Share Posted September 8, 2019 If this is a bug, does the same bug exist for transporting liquid hydrogen? Just curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beowulf2010 Posted September 8, 2019 Share Posted September 8, 2019 As far as we can tell, it's intended design that phase changes in piping that is at 10% or less than the pipe's maximum volume does no damage. So 1kg in liquid pipes and 100g in gas pipes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Entrails Posted September 8, 2019 Author Share Posted September 8, 2019 Thanks for the info, appreciate it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argelle Posted September 8, 2019 Share Posted September 8, 2019 There is no damage for 10% or less, but at the exit you end up with gas instead of liquid, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Entrails Posted September 8, 2019 Author Share Posted September 8, 2019 I actually did not get gas. It seems to stay liquid even at very warm temperatures. While testing my LOX delivery system I failed miserably to keep it cool. (Apparently normal pipes made out of insulation don't cut it). But I filled an entire rocket LOX tank with warm liquid oxygen. I was really scratching my head there. It did however take about 15-20 minutes to fill the tank. So it is slow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argelle Posted September 8, 2019 Share Posted September 8, 2019 Good to know that going to a tank or a rocket is not like going out in the open with a vent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gus Smedstad Posted September 8, 2019 Share Posted September 8, 2019 1 hour ago, Entrails said: It takes a long time to fuel a rocket this way, but as I'm struggling to make enough insulated pipes made out of insulation, this is how I'm working around it. You don't actually need insulated insulation pipes for LOX or LH2. They're nice, but with the correct setup you can get by with igneous insulation. The key thing is to recirculate the fluid. Design the system so excess fluid goes back to the production room, and set up your production so you're not making more if enough is coming back from the return pipe. The pipe should not stop flowing, ever. The LOX or LH will warm a little bit during the round trip, but not enough to vaporize, and since it's going back to the production room it'll get re-chilled there. An alternate solution, and one I don't do personally, is to use radiant pipe in a vacuum. It'll break repeatedly at first, and you'll lose LOX, but once the pipe reaches the target temperature, it will stay stable as long as it's in a vacuum, because vacuum is a perfect insulator. You use radiant pipe because it changes temperature rapidly and has a low specific heat, so it reaches equilibrium rapidly. This doesn't work so well for rocket silos because of the exhaust gasses, which is another reason I don't do it. John Francis talks about this a bit here: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Entrails Posted September 8, 2019 Author Share Posted September 8, 2019 Thank you! Another thing that confused me, is I noticed that if I fill a liquid storage tank with liquid oxygen, the fluid rapidly warmed up, but the temperature of the storage container never went down. I had it in a vacuum and figured it would cool off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xuhybrid Posted September 8, 2019 Share Posted September 8, 2019 If your pipes are in a vacuum, you can use the low packet size to pre-cool the pipes for the first few minutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gus Smedstad Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 1 hour ago, Entrails said: I noticed that if I fill a liquid storage tank with liquid oxygen, the fluid rapidly warmed up, but the temperature of the storage container never went down. I had it in a vacuum and figured it would cool off. Reservoirs don't exchange heat with their contents. The contents of a reservoir exchanges heat with the tile directly below the output port of the reservoir. So if that tile is warm and not insulated, the contents of the tank will warm up, and that tile will cool down. Really, if it's anything but a mesh tile in a vacuum, the LOX is going to warm up eventually, unless you're moving new cold LOX through it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Entrails Posted September 9, 2019 Author Share Posted September 9, 2019 1 hour ago, Xuhybrid said: If your pipes are in a vacuum, you can use the low packet size to pre-cool the pipes for the first few minutes. Oh thats a great idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuQuasar Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 I made two major mistakes with my LOX: 1. I produced it inside the gravitas facility, some distance from the launch pad .Even with insulated ceramic, LOX packets still break the pipes before they can reach the rocket, let alone make the return trip. 2. My design only chills airborne oxygen. Once it condenses, the radiant pipe is left in a vaccuum. This prevents it from ever freezing, but means I can't chill it beyond the condensation point. Fixing the second issue should also resolve the first, but I'll need to be cautious. Any heat introduced to the reservoir will cause it to vaporize and explode. This whole kerfuffle did teach me that you get back the ceramic you use to repair the pipes, though. I'm not sure if that's a bug, but I like it. Am going to have to test with other auto-repair tasks, maybe I can stop micromanaging my repairs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xuhybrid Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 39 minutes ago, Gus Smedstad said: Reservoirs don't exchange heat with their contents. The contents of a reservoir exchanges heat with the tile directly below the output port of the reservoir. So if that tile is warm and not insulated, the contents of the tank will warm up, and that tile will cool down. Really, if it's anything but a mesh tile in a vacuum, the LOX is going to warm up eventually, unless you're moving new cold LOX through it. Hah. This reminds me of my first time dealing with LOX and LH(?). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argelle Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 6 hours ago, QuQuasar said: This whole kerfuffle did teach me that you get back the ceramic you use to repair the pipes, though. I'm not sure if that's a bug, but I like it. Am going to have to test with other auto-repair tasks, maybe I can stop micromanaging my repairs. The whole .. what ?? That's good news (or bug) if repair is costless. Is it only ceramic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gus Smedstad Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 It's not obvious, but all repairs work like that. When a Dupe completes a repair, the materials required drop from the item under repair, refunding the cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuQuasar Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 Confirmed. Pipe repairs are costless. The repair materials drop out of the pipe section after the job is complete. (Edit) I cannot replicate this behavior with a petroleum generator. Note the lack of copper outside the building after it is repaired: the generator ate it. This behavior may only apply to pipes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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