Can somebody experienced check my math

[Prince Mandor]

Let's take some ideal system.

And work with water for consistency.

Aquatuner cold down 10 kg/s by 14°

And heats up surrounding water by exact same amount.

So, Steam Turbine must cool it back, and with speed 2kg/s it means 70° difference. 

It heats up by itself by 10%, so it will be 78° total if we connect above and below chambers.

95°+78°=173° (Celsius)

So if we just leave it stable in isolated room, providing with water to cool and some energy, it just be there at 173° and cooling 10kg/s of water by aquatuner at the cost of 

1200-631=569 Watt

Is it correct, or I miss something important?

[Junksteel]

I don't speak math, sorry.

[bmilohill]

You rounded 8.27 degrees to 8 and 631.43W to 631, but yes, math looks correct to me. 

 

[Prince Mandor]

6 minutes ago, bmilohill said:

You rounded 8.27 degrees to 8 and 631.43W to 631, but yes, math looks correct to me. 

 

Do you know, how I can calculate amount of steam to reliably take the heat out of heating aquatuner?

So far it looks like we can build aquatuner-turbine cooler by using gold, not steel

[bmilohill]

27 minutes ago, Prince Mandor said:

Do you know, how I can calculate amount of steam to reliably take the heat out of heating aquatuner?

hahahaha, 'Reliably' is an entirely different can of worms. I thought we were talking about an ideal system. Oni is more forgiving than real life physics in that regards, but it's still gonna depend on your set up as to what efficiency you can pull off. 

[Nightinggale]

4 hours ago, Prince Mandor said:

Is it correct, or I miss something important?

Steam turbines produce heat. They produce 4 kDTUs/s + 10% of the heat consumed when making power. If you place the turbine in high pressure hydrogen and let the water output go around the room in radiant pipes, you can make the water and turbine hit a stable 99 C. Done right and you can increase the power output by around 10%. Done wrong and the turbine stops due to overheating. It's something, which is right at the edge of what is doable.

2 hours ago, Prince Mandor said:

So far it looks like we can build aquatuner-turbine cooler by using gold, not steel

Gold amalgam looks tempting due to the +50 C overheat temperature. However it also has a very low thermal conductivity. This means it will transfer heat slower to the steam and you can except a greater temperature difference between the steam and the aquatuner. This can be somewhat countered by increasing the steam pressure as higher pressure somewhat compensates for low thermal conductivity, but if the pressure is too high, the heat transfer to the walls will increase, making it harder to make the steam room insulated.

However what you can do is to add another steam turbine. Producing 640 W with one turbine requires 174 C steam. Producing 320 W requires just 123 C and 2*320 = 640 W, meaning you still get the power output from the aquatuner as steam. This is actually interesting because it matches the formula from the wiki, but at the same time the turbines doesn't actually start until 125 C. Either way this setup should be doable even if you do have a noteworthy temperature difference between the aquatuner and the steam, meaning the low thermal conductivity should be less of an issue.

Another benefit of splitting the power production into two steam turbines is that the 10% of heat consumed will be cut in half. This makes it easier to cool the steam turbines with the exhaust water.

[Gurgel]

1 hour ago, bmilohill said:

hahahaha, 'Reliably' is an entirely different can of worms. I thought we were talking about an ideal system. Oni is more forgiving than real life physics in that regards, but it's still gonna depend on your set up as to what efficiency you can pull off. 

Oh, yes. That is why I now mostly estimate things by intuition and then try them out. You need some over-engineering anyways, because the simulation is both not perfect and actually pretty complex.

[fredhp]

https://oni-assistant.com/tools/coolingcalculator

[Gurgel]

4 minutes ago, fredhp said:

https://oni-assistant.com/tools/coolingcalculator

Excellent! I did not know that one yet.

[fredhp]

27 minutes ago, Gurgel said:

Excellent! I did not know that one yet.

That tool is just perfect! Before the new steam turbine my favorite method of heat deletion was to boil something to space, billions of DTUs deleted with a beautiful steam cloud!

Now i almost only use the "new steam turbine".

[fiziologus]

On 05.06.2019 at 4:01 PM, Prince Mandor said:

Let's take some ideal system.

And work with water for consistency.

Aquatuner cold down 10 kg/s by 14°

And heats up surrounding water by exact same amount.

So, Steam Turbine must cool it back, and with speed 2kg/s it means 70° difference. 

It heats up by itself by 10%, so it will be 78° total if we connect above and below chambers.

95°+78°=173° (Celsius)

So if we just leave it stable in isolated room, providing with water to cool and some energy, it just be there at 173° and cooling 10kg/s of water by aquatuner at the cost of 

1200-631=569 Watt

Is it correct, or I miss something important?

Almost correct.

And no need ideal system.

Pipe (sandstone) in vacuum. Steel aquatunner. Ceranic for insulation. In about 80C, out about 5C (may less). Steam (ending test) 155C and constantly little heat up, turbine room 20-25C (most time).

[Prince Mandor]

33 minutes ago, fiziologus said:

Almost correct.

And no need ideal system.

Pipe (sandstone) in vacuum. Steel aquatunner. Ceranic for insulation. In about 80C, out about 5C (may less). Steam (ending test) 155C and constantly little heat up, turbine room 20-25C (most time).

If you have extra 1200 steel, to build aquatuner, you do not need all this. Just put aquatuner directly under turbine, close it up with any isolation tiles and pump in couple tons of water. It will work anyway.

I was interested in gold amalgam as aquatuner material for aquatuner + turbine design

[fiziologus]

@Prince Mandor, I no care about material in testing (sandbox for testing, only). Just 'this must work', no more. In real game, of cource, better gold: 125 (tunner) + 50 (amalgam) enough for about 170 limit temperature (I do not think can achieve theoretical limit).

Common insulation tile (even ceramic) little leak heat and heat up itself. For hot-all-time better use vacuum, create 'nothing' between two tiles and enclose is simple task (it is available almost from start after ventilation research). Anyway scheme fully autonomous while enough hot water/liquid (external heat source vital need: negative heat balance) and nothing broke.

 

One note. Bottom termosersore set up 'lower 15C' and shut down tunner also (via NOT gate). It self-defence against 'ice in pipe' event (sersore work some time).

 

[Nightinggale]

5 hours ago, Prince Mandor said:

I was interested in gold amalgam as aquatuner material for aquatuner + turbine design

If you really want a gold amalgam aquatuner, then you have two problems to consider to avoid overheating. One is the steam temperature and the other is how much hotter the aquatuner can be compared to the steam temperature.

Gold amalgam has low thermal conductivity, meaning your aquatuner will have a tendency to be much hotter than the steam. This can be compensated by increasing the steam pressure. If the pressure is high enough, the low thermal conductivity won't matter. It's an open question what "high enough" is, but trial and error will tell you that. The higher the pressure, the higher the temperature leaks will be through the insulation, meaning you might have to increase slowly to find the sweet spot for max efficiency.

The other is steam temperature. The simple solution to that is to build 2 steam turbines. If you can always remove more heat than you generate, then you can be sure you won't get a slow, but steady buildup, which will eventually overheat the aquatuner. Turning the steam turbines on at 140 C tend to be a good spot, particularly if you plan to use the 95 C exhaust water from the turbine to cool the turbine before returning the now 99 C water back into the steam room. With a high enough pressure of hydrogen at the steam turbines, this should prevent the turbines from reaching 100 C and shut down.

[Prince Mandor]

4 hours ago, Nightinggale said:

If you really want a gold amalgam aquatuner, then you have two problems to consider to avoid overheating. One is the steam temperature and the other is how much hotter the aquatuner can be compared to the steam temperature.

Gold amalgam has low thermal conductivity, meaning your aquatuner will have a tendency to be much hotter than the steam. This can be compensated by increasing the steam pressure. If the pressure is high enough, the low thermal conductivity won't matter. It's an open question what "high enough" is, but trial and error will tell you that. The higher the pressure, the higher the temperature leaks will be through the insulation, meaning you might have to increase slowly to find the sweet spot for max efficiency.

The other is steam temperature. The simple solution to that is to build 2 steam turbines. If you can always remove more heat than you generate, then you can be sure you won't get a slow, but steady buildup, which will eventually overheat the aquatuner. Turning the steam turbines on at 140 C tend to be a good spot, particularly if you plan to use the 95 C exhaust water from the turbine to cool the turbine before returning the now 99 C water back into the steam room. With a high enough pressure of hydrogen at the steam turbines, this should prevent the turbines from reaching 100 C and shut down.

Yes, thank you!

I prefer not hydrogen, but some water spilled on the floor. But yes, set two turbines is great solution for termal-stable tuner-turbine setup

[fiziologus]

On 19.06.2019 at 3:03 PM, Nightinggale said:

If you really want a gold amalgam aquatuner, then you have two problems to consider to avoid overheating. One is the steam temperature and the other is how much hotter the aquatuner can be compared to the steam temperature.

Gold amalgam has low thermal conductivity, meaning your aquatuner will have a tendency to be much hotter than the steam.

Вut higher than the water/steam. In this case aqutuner may build from almost any metal. Heat transfer limited water termal conductivity, not aquatuner material. And termal behavior steel aquatuner almost same as gold (diferent termal capacity).

[Nightinggale]

2 hours ago, fiziologus said:

Вut higher than the water/steam. In this case aqutuner may build from almost any metal. Heat transfer limited water termal conductivity, not aquatuner material. And termal behavior steel aquatuner almost same as gold (diferent termal capacity).

The transfer of heat from aquatuner to steam would be Cell/Building transfer, which would make the formula " ΔQ = Δt * k'1 * k2 * Chot * (T1 - T2) * 0.005 * x ". This means simply put, the thermal conductivities of steam and aquatuner are multiplied. The Cell/Cell transfer will however use the lowest.

Steel has a thermal conductivity of 54. Gold has 60, but I'm talking about Gold Amalgam, which has just 2.

 

[fiziologus]

@Nightinggale, for tuner need check both capacity and conductivity stats, because it work as radiator: first heat itself, then transfer heat to environment. Simple example iron ore and wolframine as aquatuner material

Same temperature delta (tuner temp - steam temp) because wolframine termal reactive.

Now about gold. OK, I test gold aquatuner and ... termal reactivity, root all evil. It overheat from own heat (even iron ore work better). But gold still possibly use for cooling. Need only two things: termal buffer for storing heat and link termal buffer with steam.

First, buffer. Need liquid with high vaporise point (more 200C), high termal capacity and conductivity. Crude oil or petroleum (no matter, its about same in termodynamics mean). Enough one-two bootles (200-400 kg). If know other variants, say.

Second, link. Tempshift plate. I test gold (pure) and granite. Equal, e.g. enough granite.

Joint first with second and with scheme.

Steam temp oscillate about 145C, tuner temp – about 160C (max temp 149C for steam and 168C for tuner). Gold amalgame suitable for tuner-turbine tandem. Just need little moded scheme.

PS: Overheat almost broken solar panel, not tuner.

[Prince Mandor]

1 hour ago, fiziologus said:

@Nightinggale, for tuner need check both capacity and conductivity stats, because it work as radiator: first heat itself, then transfer heat to environment. Simple example iron ore and wolframine as aquatuner material

Same temperature delta (tuner temp - steam temp) because wolframine termal reactive.

Now about gold. OK, I test gold aquatuner and ... termal reactivity, root all evil. It overheat from own heat (even iron ore work better). But gold still possibly use for cooling. Need only two things: termal buffer for storing heat and link termal buffer with steam.

First, buffer. Need liquid with high vaporise point (more 200C), high termal capacity and conductivity. Crude oil or petroleum (no matter, its about same in termodynamics mean). Enough one-two bootles (200-400 kg). If know other variants, say.

Second, link. Tempshift plate. I test gold (pure) and granite. Equal, e.g. enough granite.

Joint first with second and with scheme.

Steam temp oscillate about 145C, tuner temp – about 160C (max temp 149C for steam and 168C for tuner). Gold amalgame suitable for tuner-turbine tandem. Just need little moded scheme.

PS: Overheat almost broken solar panel, not tuner.

Do we really need two cells high for aquatuner and two cells high for steam?

Can it be just 5 cells of steam and 2 cells of oil?

[fiziologus]

@Prince Mandor, 'pit' (may 1 tile) need, in first, for water who became steam (latest test use only 400 kg water, two bottles), not for tuner or some other (oil is helper for gold tuner only). It allow heat up all water at once and speed up initial sequence (and collect water after first vaporize).

Plus symmetry and visual beauty.

Form of steam room not important thing.

[Prince Mandor]

11 minutes ago, fiziologus said:

@Prince Mandor, 'pit' (may 1 tile) need, in first, for water who became steam (latest test use only 400 kg water, two bottles), not for tuner or some other (oil is helper for gold tuner only). It allow heat up all water at once and speed up initial sequence (and collect water after first vaporize).

Plus symmetry and visual beauty.

Form of steam room not important thing.

Exactly what I mean. I was just wondering, possibly there are some cause for big room.

Thank you for your time in testing

[fiziologus]

Big room allow better control for test. No more. (No need do nanotechnology)