40kg/s Regiolith Melter

[caffeinated21]

Space Sand Getting you down? Melt it. All of it. I hear it dumps 19800kg / cycle, or 33kg/s. This bad boy I'll eat it all (and play catchup with yesterday's leftovers). 

 

Requires <0.25kg/s of Magma to heat. More to come...

[tzionut]

The design is ok.  The only challenge is the heating of magma to maintain at least 1500 degrees. This in the interesting part. The preheating and melting can be done more easy whit wolfram rails direct submerged in magma, and several conveyor receiver. 

[Grimgaw]

54 minutes ago, tzionut said:

The only challenge is the heating of magma to maintain at least 1500 degrees.

Not so much, since melting regolith ADDS heat.

[tzionut]

Quote

Not so much, since melting regolith ADDS heat.

You are mistaken if you add 400 degrees regolith into 1500 degrees magma, for the 20 kg or 100 kg or regolith to reach 1410 degrees for converting into magma must absorb heat. So regolith heat to 1410 degrees magma drop from 1500 to 1409 then solidify. Play some more and you will se i am right. I make something similar when was the bug whit indestructible aquatuner  

[Grimgaw]

1 hour ago, tzionut said:

You are mistaken

Nope, I'm not. Regolith has 0.2 DTU/g/K heat capacity and melts into equivalent mass of magma which has 1 DTU/g/K heat capacity. So when you melt Regolith you create a lot of heat. (Please do note that I didn't mention temperature at all. If you want an update on temperature vs heat relation here is a handy link).

[Saturnus]

10 minutes ago, Grimgaw said:

Nope, I'm not. Regolith has 0.2 DTU/g/K heat capacity and melts into equivalent mass of magma which has 2 DTU/g/K heat capacity. So when you melt Regolith you create a lot of heat. (Please do note that I didn't mention temperature at all. If you want an update on temperature vs heat relation here is a handy link).

Firstly, it's 1 DTU/g/K, not 2.

Here's a demonstration. Regolith is 400C. Magma on the right started at 1500C. Everything was preheated to 1500C first.

As you add regolith the temperature continues to drop until it's too low to melt the regolith into magma so it's not a sustainable process without adding external heat to the process.

[Angpaur]

1 minute ago, Saturnus said:

so it's not a sustainable process without adding external heat to the process.

I don't think Grimgaw meant that it is.

Thing is that the more regolith you melt than the less heat you need to heat the whole system back to 1500C. But you always need to input some additional heat, but from mathematical point of view the amount of the additional heat is heading to 0. (I don't know if I phrased this correctly in English, sorry)

[Saturnus]

2 hours ago, Angpaur said:

I don't think Grimgaw meant that it is.

Thing is that the more regolith you melt than the less heat you need to heat the whole system back to 1500C. 

That's not how it works.

If you add 200kg 400C regolith to 2000kg 1500C magma it becomes 2200kg 1473.5C magma.
That is higher total heat capacity, sure but to maintain 1500C you need to add 58300kDTU (2200*1500-2200*1473.5) or 291.5kDTU per kg regolith added.

If you add another 200kg 400C to the above it becomes 2400kg 1451.4C magma.
Again that is higher total heat capacity but to maintain 1500C you need to add 116640kDTU (2400*1500-2400*1451.4) or 291.6kDTU per kg regolith added.

So the heat you need to add to maintain a certain temperature is a fixed amount of about 291.5kDTU per kg of 400C regolith you melt.

[Angpaur]

21 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

That's not how it works.

It works exactly as I described it. Below some numbers for 5 steps of melting 200kg@400C in 1500C of magma.

Initial mass of magma	Regolith input mass	Total mass after melting	Temperature after melting	Difference to 1500C	kDTU needed to heat to 1500C
2000	200	2200	1478,43	21,57	47 454,00
2200	200	2400	1480,36	19,64	47 136,00
2400	200	2600	1481,97	18,03	46 878,00
2600	200	2800	1483,33	16,67	46 676,00
2800	200	3000	1484,51	15,49	46 470,00
3000	200	3200	1485,53	14,47	46 304,00

You can see that with each melting the kDTU needed for heating the whole mass back to 1500C is decreasing.

[Saturnus]

2 minutes ago, Angpaur said:

It works exactly as I described it. Below some numbers for 5 steps of melting 200kg@400C in 1500C of magma.

Initial mass of magma	Regolith input mass	Total mass after melting	Temperature after melting	Difference to 1500C	kDTU needed to heat to 1500C
2000	200	2200	1478,43	21,57	47 454,00
2200	200	2400	1480,36	19,64	47 136,00
2400	200	2600	1481,97	18,03	46 878,00
2600	200	2800	1483,33	16,67	46 676,00
2800	200	3000	1484,51	15,49	46 470,00
3000	200	3200	1485,53	14,47	46 304,00

You can see that with each melting the kDTU needed for heating the whole mass back to 1500 is decreasing.

Shall I point out the obvious flaw? Or flaws really.

[Angpaur]

Sure, I'm always happy and ready to be corrected if I say something to be false.

[Saturnus]

Just now, Angpaur said:

Sure, I'm always happy and ready to be corrected if I say something to be false.

Firstly, your numbers are calculated. Not tested. My numbers above are from testing it not just calculating it. Huge difference.

 

[Angpaur]

I'm not able to test it right now so I'm just presenting a theory behind the whole concept. But I don't see a reason why it shouldn't work this way, but indeed game has proven some my calculations to be wrong in the past, but mostly because I was using wrong formulas, as I didn't know actual formulas used in game code.

But in this case I believe I use correct formula, so this calculations should be reflected in game testing.

[Saturnus]

10 minutes ago, Angpaur said:

I'm not able to test it right now so I'm just presenting a theory behind the whole concept.

And I'm telling you.

41 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

That's not how it works.

I know that in principle it should work the way you describe but it doesn't when you actually test it in the game.

Here's how it does work in the game.

41 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

So the heat you need to add to maintain a certain temperature is a fixed amount of about 291.5DTU per kg of 400C regolith you melt.

 

[Angpaur]

39 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

If you add another 200kg 400C to the above it becomes 2400kg 1451.4C magma.

I think in this place you misunderstood the whole concept - you need to heat up the magma back to 1500C before you add another regolith.

So after adding another 200k 400C to 2200kg of 1500C magma it becomes 2400kg@1480C, not 1451C

[JohnFrancis]

5 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

I know that in principle it should work the way you describe but it doesn't when you actually test it in the game.

I have not played around with regolith melting but I have played with petroleum boiling and I can tell you the numbers the game gives you and the reality don't match when you start involving state change. If you believe it's possible then try building it, but as has been said before this game is a harsh mistress who laughs when you try and use math on her.

For an example of one quirk try making a heat exchange stairs that drops one tile for every three across. Make a left facing one and a right facing one. Both of them will output at very different temps.

[Saturnus]

 

18 minutes ago, JohnFrancis said:

If you believe it's possible then try building it, but as has been said before this game is a harsh mistress who laughs when you try and use math on her.

Aren't you talking to the wrong guy here? I'm the one saying his calculations doesn't match my observations. Not the reverse.

Interestingly, you even reference my heat exchange experiment where we discovered the left/right orientation difference.

21 minutes ago, Angpaur said:

So after adding another 200k 400C to 2200kg of 1500C magma it becomes 2400kg@1480C, not 1451C

Not so I'm afraid.

Adding 200kg 400C regolith to 2200kg 1500C magma gives 2400kg 1475.7C magma.

So to get back to 1500C you need to add (1500*2400-1475.7*2400) or 58320kDTU or 291.6kDTU per kg added.

So absolutely zero change from the observation above.

[Grimgaw]

@Saturnus I see you still don't see implications of melting something with 0.2 DTU/g/K to 1 DTU/g/K.

Here's a good explanation:

@JohnFrancis @Saturnus It's been already built a year ago, there's even @Lifegrow's video somewhere.

 

[Saturnus]

1 minute ago, Grimgaw said:

@Saturnus I see you still don't see implications of melting something with 0.2 DTU/g/K to 1 DTU/g/K.

See above, I've already demonstrated it not to be the case.

[Angpaur]

20 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

So to get back to 1500C you need to add (1500*2400-1475.7*2400) or 58320kDTU or 291.6kDTU per kg added.

So how much kDTU will have to add when you do next iteration of melting and you melt 200kg@400C of regolith in that heated back to 1500C 2400kg of magma?

After melting it the final temperature of 2600kg of magma should be 1483.33C

Isn't it 1500*2600-1483.33*2600 = 43342kDTU ?

[Grimgaw]

19 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

Adding 200kg 400C regolith to 2200kg 1500C magma gives 2400kg 1475.7C magma.

So to get back to 1500C you need to add (1500*2400-1475.7*2400) or 58320kDTU or 291.6kDTU per kg added.

Keep adding regolith and see how the kDTU per kg added gets smaller.

[Saturnus]

12 minutes ago, Angpaur said:

So how much kDTU will have to add when you do next iteration of melting and you melt 200kg@400C of regolith in that heated back to 1500C 2400kg of magma?

Isn't it 1500*2600-1483.33*2600 = 43342kDTU ?

 

12 minutes ago, Grimgaw said:

Keep adding regolith and see how the kDTU per kg added gets smaller.

I skipped a few steps.

Added 200kg 400C regolith to 3000kg 1500C magma. It becomes 3200kg 1481.78C magma.

Still about 291.5kDTU per kg need to be added as above observations indicate to get back to 1500C.

[Grimgaw]

291.5kDTU is less than 291.6kDTU is it not?

And you shouldn't skip steps, they are important. That's the whole point of series. You can't just take n-th argument and make assumptions what the series equals to. 

[Saturnus]

6 minutes ago, Grimgaw said:

291.5kDTU is less than 291.6kDTU is it not?

No. Not what I said. Please check above more carefully.

1 hour ago, Saturnus said:

If you add 200kg 400C regolith to 2000kg 1500C magma it becomes 2200kg 1473.5C magma.
That is higher total heat capacity, sure but to maintain 1500C you need to add 58300kDTU (2200*1500-2200*1473.5) or 291.5kDTU per kg regolith added.

If you add another 200kg 400C to the above it becomes 2400kg 1451.4C magma.
Again that is higher total heat capacity but to maintain 1500C you need to add 116640kDTU (2400*1500-2400*1451.4) or 291.6kDTU per kg regolith added.

So the heat you need to add to maintain a certain temperature is a fixed amount of about 291.5kDTU per kg of 400C regolith you melt.

See how the exact number goes up and down a bit?

Likely due to temperature readings can only be so accurate with one decimal.

But no indication of a downward trend seen.

[Neotuck]

NERD FIGHT!

grabs some popcorn...