Cooking dirt without digging

[biopon]

1 hour ago, nakomaru said:

what the intended behavior actually is

I think it's a bug, and probably happens with all/most phase changes? I have a glossy drecko -> sour gas plant, and I'm melting plastic in it to feed an 1500g/sec naphtha valve. I'm cutting back on glossy dreckos and my plastic still keeps going up, even though there's absolutely no way I'm shearing 900kg/cycle.

 

[M.C.]

4 hours ago, biopon said:

I don't think this has a lot to do with timing. I played around with it a lot, temperature matters more than anything else to make mass doubling consistent. I have a bug report and an artificial test save here:

Timing is absolutely part of it. I've spent an hour or so watching packets of fertilizer transform into dirt and I am as sure as I can be.

Now, temperature is a much larger factor. My survival cooker reliably loses 50% mass output when petroleum is 130C and conserves mass when it's 145C. So here's how I think timing plays into this. Newly formed tiles draw heat from their surroundings. If a new packet arrives quickly enough to combine with the current packet, there's no mass loss. If a new packet arrives after a delay long enough for temperature to recover, there's no mass loss. However, if it arrives during the window when temperature is still low, it loses mass.

I suppose you can mitigate this by raising your cooker temperature, but I've seen intermittent mass loss at 225-250C depending, again, on the timing.

 

[mathmanican]

2 hours ago, biopon said:

I think it's a bug, and probably happens with all/most phase changes? I have a glossy drecko -> sour gas plant, and I'm melting plastic in it to feed an 1500g/sec naphtha valve. I'm cutting back on glossy dreckos and my plastic still keeps going up, even though there's absolutely no way I'm shearing 900kg/cycle.

Mind sharing a save?  This sounds like you've found a way to duplicate reusable matter. I'd love to take a look, find the bug, and then exploit it to the extreme. 

[FIXBUGFIXBUGFIX]

6 hours ago, biopon said:

I don't think this has a lot to do with timing. I played around with it a lot, temperature matters more than anything else to make mass doubling consistent. I have a bug report and an artificial test save here:

If you try to apply this on some liquefiable material, such as water/oil, finally you will get infinite water/oil.

It could works like metal cannon, though not so efficient.

[M.C.]

I have a survival-built dirt cooker now and its behavior is, well... erratic. Right after loading the game, it always starts losing 50% of fertilizer mass. It continues doing so until I increase the temperature of the cooker. That makes it conserve mass again. Why? I have no idea. Later on I can lower the temperature back to the original setting and it will continue conserving mass... until I restart or reload the game. All timing-related nonsense is prevented by a simple automation circuit that activates the fertilizer loader for 6 seconds every 200 seconds.

[mathmanican]

6 hours ago, R9MX4 said:

If you try to apply this on some liquefiable material, such as water/oil, finally you will get infinite water/oil.

Works like a charm. Just tried it. Dump ice into a 300C petro bath, and when it converts to water, you get double the mass. Just convert the water back to ice, then repeat. The faster you can flash freeze the steam, the faster you can generate more water. This to me suggests that the entire issue of doubling anything's mass is a bug. 

Note:  This does not work if you try to turn the ice into water using 300C steam.  It works great if your bath is made of crude oil or petroleum.  A 100C bath of polluted water does not result in double mass. 

[FIXBUGFIXBUGFIX]

4 minutes ago, mathmanican said:

Dump ice into a 300C petro bath

clarify:I mean ice/water pair and oil/solid oil pair, not pour ice to oil. You don't need to heat ice to 300C, 3C for melt should be enough

[mathmanican]

8 minutes ago, R9MX4 said:

ice/water pair

Had already tried this once, with no success, but tried it again. Dumping ice (say at -1.1C) into a cool water bath (8C) can result in doubled mass. This is much easier to recreate in game. Of the last 4 blocks of 500kg ice I dropped in, 3 of them became 1000kg, while only 1 because 500kg. A contraption that keeps liquid at 8C, while flash freezing the top layer to ice, should not be difficult to build. 

Just got the first one in crude to double as well. A block of -44C crude, dumped into -33C liquid crude doubled in mass upon conversion to liquid. 

 

[FIXBUGFIXBUGFIX]

12 minutes ago, mathmanican said:

Of the last 4 blocks of 500kg ice I dropped in, 3 of them became 1000kg

I haven't noticed this. Maybe you can try to figure out what's the difference. Though I'm 99% sure Klei won't fix the bug within one month, no matter what you do.

[mathmanican]

1 hour ago, R9MX4 said:

Maybe you can try to figure out what's the difference. Though I'm 99% sure Klei won't fix the bug within one month, no matter what you do.

Planning on doing exactly this, hoping to track down exactly what's causing the issue.  I'll build something crazy with it (of course).  I am just happy that @Ipsquiggle puts a "thanks" on things when I share these crazy builds in the updates.  It tells me that the devs definitely know it's an issue, and I trust they'll look into it (maybe not immediately, but definitely have it on their radar). The bug reports often don't get any comments in them, but a simple "thanks" from the devs tells me they saw the problem.

By the way, the metal cannon is hilarious.  I apparently started playing too late to see that golden gem....  

[FIXBUGFIXBUGFIX]

I was once like you.

Good luck.

[mathmanican]

Well forget the drecko ranch for infinite matter production.  A homemade regular water geyser works just fine, and you can pretty much control your temperature output as well. 

The top row of doors is there to double the water production, should I want to, at which point I'll need another aquatuner.  Currently the aquatuner is processing PW (so supercoolant could double the production of ice, and hence water). I prefer builds without space materials. The liquid valve is set at 5000g (can go up more, before stopping the aquatuner). The clock opens once a day for 2%, dropping any ice that has been made into a nice 7C bath of water, kept at that temp by liquid tepidizers. Very easy to build.

This thing started with 46t of water, and I'm now at 57 t of water, with several tons of ice still waiting melt (their mass will double). Hasn't even been 10 cycles yet.  More tests will be done. I'll make a more compact and prettier homemade geyser, and then start a new thread (I'll probably move the aquatuner(s) into the bath, replacing the tepidizers, and then build an escher waterfall for liquid storage.). Just thought I'd share the beast in creation before it's fully made and understood.

I still don't know why sometimes ice doubles, and sometimes it does not, but high temp is not the reason. 

While writing this post, my water content rose to 64t, 3-4 cycles later....  Um. My dupes are gonna drown....

[Neotuck]

28 minutes ago, mathmanican said:

Well forget the drecko ranch for infinite matter production.  A homemade regular water geyser works just fine, and you can pretty much control your temperature output as well. 

While writing this post, my water content rose to 64t, 3-4 cycles later....  Um. My dupes are gonna drown....

way too OP, I suspect the devs will fix this

[mathmanican]

11 hours ago, Neotuck said:

way too OP, I suspect the devs will fix this

At some point, I assume they will too.  This build will just highlight the need for change. I assume for now, as @R9MX4 suggested, that this won't change their plans for the next release.  They already have a plan, and are working on it.  They are still in the creation phase, and I hope they take direct action on the plans they have for development, rather than react to bugs. 

Meanwhile..... time to have some serious fun exploiting the crap out of this. Mwhahaha.

[Neotuck]

1 minute ago, mathmanican said:

Meanwhile..... time to have some serious fun exploiting the crap out of this. Mwhahaha.

[mathmanican]

1 hour ago, nakomaru said:

Does melting tiles directly prevent the mass from halving?

Yep. This is why people like to melt the ice biomes for water, rather than dig them for ice.  They get twice the water if they melt the ice instead of dig it and bring it to base. Of course, if the ice is now doubling when melting, then that no longer matters.  Dig away and move your ice where you want it. 

[biopon]

On 3/5/2019 at 7:52 PM, mathmanican said:

Mind sharing a save?  This sounds like you've found a way to duplicate reusable matter. I'd love to take a look, find the bug, and then exploit it to the extreme. 

Sorry, I've been away from the forums and ONI for a while. But it seems you've figured it out... that self-contained water duplicator is very nice work!

[mathmanican]

24 minutes ago, biopon said:

Sorry, I've been away from the forums and ONI for a while. But it seems you've figured it out... that self-contained water duplicator is very nice work!

Welcome back. It's been a crazy few weeks.  For those who stumble on this thread in the future, here is a link to the water duplicator that resulted from this thread. Hopefully it will get patched out of existence, at which point I'll updated that thread and declare it dead.