What is the real thermal conductivity of abyssalite?

[Angpaur]

I made experiment to check if unmined tile of abyssalite provides better insulation than insulated tiles made of igneous rock and ceramic.

As far I know a non-insulated tiles uses logarithmic mean to calculate value at which transfer between to materials will occur. So I placed 1000kg of gasous mercury(thermal conductivity 8.3) besides a abyssalite tile of 500kg(thermal conductivity 0.0001). All was surrounded by neutronium. I repeated the same for insulated tiles.

The log mean of abyssalite and mercury is 0.609, so it is quite high. Thermal conductivity of the insulated tiles is 0.02 for igneous rock(30 times lower) and 0.006 for ceramic(100 times lower).

Real game results show that both insualted tiles heated up much faster than the abyssalite, even though termal conductivity was much higher for the abyssalite and mercury.

So does this mean that themal conductivity of abyssalite is much lower than 0.0001 or there are some other artificial factors or in-code conditions for abyssalite?

[Yothiel]

Have you looked at the gas' temperatures rather than the solid tiles' temperatures? Your abyssalite tile has a way higher heat capacity, so it will heat more slowly than your insulated tiles for the same amount of energy transferred

[Angpaur]

Heat capacity is 4 time higher than igenous rock and 5 times higher than ceramic. And abyssalite is only 100kg more than 400kg of insulated tile. Still it should heat up faster considering the high conductivity of 0.609 even though having more heat capacity. Or I'm I wrong?

I also made a 100kg tile of abyssalite and it still was heating up slower than insulated tiles.

[ruhrohraggy]

I know your question is specific to the abyssalite tile itself...but I was also curious about the new insulation tile.

I know previously it was a waste to make insulation tiles out of abyssalite, and you could just use normal tiles...

I have noticed that the same is true for tiles made out of insulation. (IF you are containing a liquid, if you are containing a gas, it will slowly transfer heat. Very Slooooowly)

I stuck 20k kg of liquid 4426C tungsten inside a box made from both standard insulation floor tiles, and insulated tiles made from insulation.

They both stayed at 20C, for about 20 cycles.

The same is not true for pipes though. Standard pipes made from insulation will still transfer heat, and heat up or cool slowly to whatever their ambient room temperature is. They do not conduct heat to the fluid very well so long as it's moving. But they still conduct heat.

I pumped a bunch of -252C hydrogen through the 4400C Tungsten filled box (It had cooled slightly due to the pipe), with the standard pipe made from insulation at 4400C. The -252C Hydrogen came out the other side only 0.5C  warmer.

Once I stopped the liquid however, it  heated up and broke all the pipes rather quickly.

Insulated piping made out of insulation however, acts the way the standard abyssalite pipes used to. No heat transfer, period. So actually a worthwhile investment there.

Gas piping is similar to liquid piping simulations.

 

 

[Angpaur]

6 minutes ago, ruhrohraggy said:

I have noticed that the same is true for tiles made out of insulation.

I stuck 20k kg of liquid 4426C tungsten inside a box made from both standard insulation floor tiles, and insulated tiles made from insulation.

Well I have surprise for you then - repeat the same with an insulated tile made of any material. Seems like liquids doesn't transfer heat with insualted tiles at all.

[ruhrohraggy]

6 minutes ago, Angpaur said:

Well I have surprise for you then - repeat the same with an insulated tile made of any material. Seems like liquids doesn't transfer heat with insualted tiles at all.

Indeed.

Gas does seem to affect the standard insulation tile. It's heating up veeeeeery slowly. The insulated tile is not.

[Angpaur]

The whole thermal conductivity system appears to be just a total mess. You cannot calculate anything and be sure of your results. Everything needs to be checked in real game simulation

[ruhrohraggy]

8 minutes ago, Angpaur said:

The whole thermal conductivity system appears to be just a total mess. You cannot calculate anything and be sure of your results. Everything needs to be checked in real game simulation

Smoke and mirrors man, smoke and mirrors. The numbers are there to make it seem more educated. That's why I stopped trying to math ONI and just test things out now.

[Angpaur]

1 hour ago, ruhrohraggy said:

That's why I stopped trying to math ONI and just test things out now.

Yeah, I will just have to do the same. I recently made a fool out of myself on Steam discussions trying to prove some things in ONI based on math.

[Iriswaters]

I am uncertain I understand what you are doing with the insulated tiles here.  Are you just using 2 insulated tiles instead of one tile of abys and one of mercury, or are you using insulated with mercury...?

[Angpaur]

Maybe screenshot will help:

Spoiler

I tested various materials and tiles.

[Iriswaters]

Ok, well....  Your statement seems to be comparing the logarithmic mean of abys and mercury against the flat value of igneous/ceramic.   But shouldn't you be using the log mean with them too, vis a vis whatever gas one is using?   Obviously abys is going to transfer heat from mercury slower than igneous is going to transfer heat from mercury...

[Angpaur]

Insulated tiles doesn't use log mean. Insulated tiles heat transfer is always based on minimal value of thermal conductivity of both materials and usually the insulated tile is the minial one.

[oosyrag]

3 hours ago, Angpaur said:

Insulated tiles doesn't use log mean. Insulated tiles heat transfer is always based on minimal value of thermal conductivity of both materials and usually the insulated tile is the minial one.

This is false. Probably outdated information.

A tile of insulated Mafic (0.01 TC) and insulated Obsidian (0.02 TC), same mass and specific heat, will transfer heat from one tile of chlorine (0.008 TC) at different rates when surrounded by neutronium. 

Similar tests can be done with insulated pipes with similar results.

[Angpaur]

11 minutes ago, oosyrag said:

This is false. Probably outdated information.

A tile of insulated Mafic (0.01 TC) and insulated Obsidian (0.02 TC), same mass and specific heat, will transfer heat from one tile of chlorine (0.008 TC) at different rates when surrounded by neutronium. 

Similar tests can be done with insulated pipes with similar results.

Really? I need to test it

[oosyrag]

No, if the thermal transfer was based on the lowest conductivity of both materials, chlorine with 0.008 would be used and the conductivity of the tiles would not matter, as they are both higher. The rate of transfer was different for each pair, so the higher value DOES make a difference.

[Angpaur]

1 minute ago, oosyrag said:

No, if the thermal transfer was based on the lowest conductivity of both materials, chlorine with 0.008 would be used and the conductivity of the tiles would not matter, as they are both higher. The rate of transfer was different for each pair, so the higher value DOES make a difference.

Sorry, I just realized this. I edited my post.

[Lilalaunekuh]

Ok now to achieve total confusion:

How do you think about drywalling behind insultaed tiles (with or without pipes running thru it) ?

[oosyrag]

As far as I can tell, drywall doesn't do much in terms of insulation. It has no thermal conductivity modifiers (unless they are hidden). I think the main use is to prevent gas/liquid loss in space.

Buildings are weird in that they only interact with things that are directly overlapping them - not with neighboring tiles. Additionally, pipes do not directly interact with buildings in front of them either, just with the gas/liquid in the tile (vacuum will insulate between building and pipe on the same tile). Normally, buildings can't be overlap any building or tile, so tempshift plates and drywall are the weird exceptions.

From my limited testing, it seems to instantly take the temperature of the tile in front of it regardless of mass or thermal conductivity, which is another strange outlier rule. So putting it behind tiles is pointless.

I think the best use for drywall in terms of thermal management currently is simply as a temperature bank (in an open space). As their mass is considerable, it will hold a lot of heat energy and resist change in general to heat being added or removed from the room.

BTW the easiest way to prove insulated materials use only the lowest thermal conductivity is no longer true is to put one insulated wolframite liquid pipe and one insulated sandstone pipe in hot gas - the difference is quite pronounced. There is a lot of outdated advice floating around saying it doesn't make a difference because gas conductivity is so much lower than any insulated material you can use for pipe anyway. It definitely makes a difference now.

[Lilalaunekuh]

1 hour ago, oosyrag said:

BTW the easiest way to prove insulated materials use only the lowest thermal conductivity is no longer true is to put one insulated wolframite liquid pipe and one insulated sandstone pipe in hot gas - the difference is quite pronounced.

You factored in the higher thermal capacity and the x25 multiplicator for gas conductivity ?

 

Drywalls interact just with their occupied tile, but in case of an insulated tile still at a "good" rate

(The cell/building heat transfer seems to work without the "insulated" factor, considering a old post about the (old) heat transfer code)

=> Adding something 400kg igneous rock raises the "total" thermal capacity of an insulated tile by quite a bit

 

So the question would be more like is a low conductivity material better suited to be your insulation material if got a lower or higher heat capacity ?

[oosyrag]

Regarding the thermal capacity, sandstone was a bad exampe. Insulated sedimentary would be much closer. There would be a difference, but not a huge one.

I didn't know about a 25x multiplier for gas conductivity. In that case Chlorine's conductivity is actually 0.2? In that case the lowest conductivity would be the insulated obsidian pipe at 0.0625, with chlorine at 0.2 and insulated wolframite at 0.46.

Back to testing!

 

(Edit: Insulated Mafic and Obsidian would be the best things to test with, but if there is a 25x multiplier for gas then chlorine would no longer be the lowest value anyway, resulting in the difference.)

[Lilalaunekuh]

 

Don´t think the changed how heat transfer works, so this should still aplly for most parts.

(Just a new mean calculation; or did I miss something ?)

[oosyrag]

Wanted to try with insulated tile vs abyssalite, but apparently abyssalite is absolutely 0 conductivity at the moment like neutronium.

10,000kg abyssalite tile at 5000K wouldn't heat an adjacent gas, liquid, solid, or tile at all. Which would answer OP's original question.

 

[Lilalaunekuh]

17 hours ago, oosyrag said:

abyssalite is absolutely 0 conductivity at the moment like neutronium.

OK to answer the real question: Thermal conductivity 0,00001 (bold is the ingame value)

Abyssalite is NOT perfect insulator like neutronium, just the current tooltip isn´t accurate enough to show the real value.

 

Proof:

Spoiler

Painted the abyssalite in at 3000°C/100kg and the water at 20°C / 1000kg, and it evaporated before as soon as I started the game.

 

But there is a "minimum thermal engery" needed to start a heat exchange, so every material will have a small temperature range where it acts like a perfect insulator.

 

[Coolthulhu]

4 hours ago, Lilalaunekuh said:

Proof:

You forgot the sweating mechanic, which would explain the whole thing without thermal conductivity. Sweating ignores conductivity.